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Old 07-12-2019, 05:02 PM   #121
smashingjj
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gezellig

 
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Old 07-12-2019, 05:05 PM   #122
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i'm glad to see things are basically the same here

 
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Old 07-12-2019, 05:47 PM   #123
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1. racism is dependent on a power structure, it's based on a group of people removing power and dehumanizing another group of people based on their race. You can't have one without the other.
2. Prejudice and bigotry can happen from minorities but it will never be racism, exactly because it doesn't carry the same repercussions, a white person will never get arrested, murdered, beaten up, forbidden from entering a store based on their skin color.
3. Language is constantly changing and evolving to suit the needs of the time.
Language is changing, but the definition of words tracks the general use of those words.

The word "racism," as used by most English speakers, has a wider meaning than just "institutional racism," and describes a range of things from power structures to individual mental attitudes.

What "need" is being suited by redefining the word "racism" to mean "institutional racism?" If the goal is to serve as a response to people who try to downplay the significance of racism against minorities with "but minorities can be racist against whites, too!", then, as I said, I think the proper response to that is simply to explain that racism against minorities is often backed by societal power that sustains inequalities, rather than just to redefine racism so that one can go "that doesn't count." This is one of those cases where I agree with the general position as some other people, but think that the argument they use in support of said position is poor, and would rather see my position supported by stronger arguments to present the strongest possible version of my position.

Like, if we go with the redefining option, we're led to some conclusions that seem clearly wrong. Let's take a minority who has more societal power than is typical of his ethnicity, such as Barack Obama. If racism must be "prejudice + power," then a poor Southern white who compares Obama to a monkey isn't really being racist, because he has less power than Obama. This seems to me to be a wrong conclusion, because the white guy in question is clearly racist, so the argument that leads to it must be wrong.

Also, the bit about a white person never being at risk of being beaten up or murderered for being white just isn't true, but I don't feel like posting the examples of it happening because I'm not interested in looking like I'm going on some crusade to make these incidents seem equivalent in scope to the historical and continuing violence against minorities. But yeah, the prejudiced-and-bigoted-but-maybe-not-racist minorities sometimes commit pretty bad hate crimes against white people simply because they are white.

Last edited by Disco King : 07-12-2019 at 06:57 PM. Reason: I made a mistake

 
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Old 07-12-2019, 06:29 PM   #124
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guys, can we settle this by all playing our favourite Falco albums? guy just had natural swagger

 
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Old 07-12-2019, 06:56 PM   #125
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Language is changing, but the definition of words tracks the general use of those words.

The word "racism," as used by most English speakers, has a wider meaning than just "institutional racism," and describes a range of things from power structures to individual mental attitudes.

What "need" is being suited by redefining the word "racism" to mean "institutional racism?" If the goal is to serve as a response to people who try to downplay the significance of racism against minorities with "but minorities can be racist against minorities, too!", then, as I said, I think the proper response to that is simply to explain that racism against minorities is often backed by societal power that sustains inequalities, rather than just to redefine racism so that one can go "that doesn't count." This is one of those cases where I agree with the general position as some other people, but think that the argument they use in support of said position is poor, and would rather see my position supported by stronger arguments to present the strongest possible version of my position.

Like, if we go with the redefining option, we're led to some conclusions that seem clearly wrong. Let's take a minority who has more societal power than is typical of his ethnicity, such as Barack Obama. If racism must be "prejudice + power," then a poor Southern white who compares Obama to a monkey isn't really being racist, because he has less power than Obama. This seems to me to be a wrong conclusion, because the white guy in question is clearly racist, so the argument that leads to it must be wrong.

Also, the bit about a white person never being at risk of being beaten up or murderered for being white just isn't true, but I don't feel like posting the examples of it happening because I'm not interested in looking like I'm going on some crusade to make these incidents seem equivalent in scope to the historical and continuing violence against minorities. But yeah, the prejudiced-and-bigotted-but-maybe-not-racist minorities sometimes commit pretty bad hate crimes against white people simply because they are white.
This is fuzzy level of word salad nonsense and logical fallacy.
I suggest you do some more reading and freshen up your sources a bit, or don't... I don't know... live your truth or whatever makes you happy.
Happy trails.

Last edited by LaBelle : 07-12-2019 at 07:02 PM.

 
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Old 07-12-2019, 07:05 PM   #126
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This is fuzzy level of word salad nonsense and logical fallacy.
I suggest you do some more reading and freshen up your sources a bit, or don't... I don't know... live your truth or whatever makes you happy.
Happy trails.
Could you point out the logical fallacies?

 
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Old 07-12-2019, 07:16 PM   #127
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Could you point out the logical fallacies?

 
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Old 07-12-2019, 08:53 PM   #128
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I suppose repeating a bare assertion with no attempt at constructing an argument to support it, simply dismissing any argument questioning said bare assertion as "logical fallacies," and responding to any request to illuminate which logical fallacies have been committed with a Big Bang Theory Tumblr GIF, is a suitable alternative to making an attempt to respond in good faith.

 
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Old 07-12-2019, 09:11 PM   #129
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Old 07-12-2019, 09:11 PM   #130
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guys, can we settle this by all playing our favourite Falco albums? guy just had natural swagger
finally, a voice of REASON comes to play!

 
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Old 07-12-2019, 09:45 PM   #131
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ya hear that, ryan and shallowed?
Pardon me, I haven't said anything about Malcom X, but I'd be interested to know what you think my views are.

 
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Old 07-12-2019, 09:49 PM   #132
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And by "interested" I mean bracing myself for being told how I'm wrong and dumb no matter what I say or think or do.

 
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Old 07-12-2019, 10:01 PM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Disco King View Post
I suppose repeating a bare assertion with no attempt at constructing an argument to support it, simply dismissing any argument questioning said bare assertion as "logical fallacies," and responding to any request to illuminate which logical fallacies have been committed with a Big Bang Theory Tumblr GIF, is a suitable alternative to making an attempt to respond in good faith.


You're using very similar talking points and trying to bait me into a "logical argument" like the racist right winger nuts on the internet do. So congrats.

I'm a white passing latina, so it's absolutely not my place to explain black people's oppression. There's really no point in trying to continue this argument.

 
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Old 07-12-2019, 11:22 PM   #134
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You seemed happy to talk about it until your opinion wasn't immediately deferred to without question, but ok.

I don't see how my position is similar to a right-wingers' when I specifically gave an accountant of how we can still analyze racism against minorities as a more pernicious and entrenched phenomenon than racism against whites without having to redefine any words. My position, for anyone who's been paying attention, is still that white people have power in society, rendering their racism against other ethnic and racial groups supportive of systems of inequality and oppression.

In fact, what we've been disagreeing on isn't even about whether black people are oppressed, which I obviously agree with. Rather, it's been about how definitions work, a question relevant to philosophy of language and philosophy of science. Stipulating definitions are definitions that stipulate a specific, narrower sense than for a word than how it is typically used. Even if a stipulating definition proves useful or expedient in a limited context, it can never replace the broader definition of how the word is used, so it makes no sense to say "the stipulating definition is the only correct one, and the regular one is wrong," because the very definition of a word is how it is used, so top-down redefinition a of words don't really work.

A test of a stipulating definition is its utility. I've been saying that stipulating "racism" to mean "institutional racism" isn't very useful, because we've already got the term "institutional racism" to describe just that, and stipulating the term to mean something else leads to logical consequences that actually go against the aim of redefining it in the first place.

 
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Old 07-12-2019, 11:46 PM   #135
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i think youre right.

i think defining racism as necessarily instiutional serves a purpose and makes sense in the realm of like academic arguments but most people on earth don't participate in those discourse communities and define racism in the more straightforward way of just being prejudiced against a race. definitions arent deigned by plato's philosopher kings but emerge from common understandings. so "racism" means both of those things at the same time. saying "reverse racism doesnt exist" doesn't make sense because reverse racism is a concept people believe in, and make real when they act in the world based on their understanding of it. you can argue that it is a harmful concept, but to just be like "its not real, what's real is MY theories about how race operates" assumes your subjective persoective has some kind of special access to objective reality. which it does, but so does everybody else's. if people generally agree a word means something, then it does.

 
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Old 07-13-2019, 12:04 AM   #136
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You're using very similar talking points and trying to bait me into a "logical argument" like the racist right winger nuts on the internet do. So congrats.
I can totally understand not having the mental energy to get baited into dumb arguments with people that have no intention of being open-minded enough to have their mind changed. I see it all the time, it's ridiculously easy to spot. There's a huge difference between people like that and Disco King, who I don't think I've ever seen engage someone in bad faith. If anything, Disco King probably engages in good faith too much when he should instead just call someone out for being a troll.

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I'm a white passing latina, so it's absolutely not my place to explain black people's oppression.
Uh, yeah, especially not to someone who very much passes for black.

 
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Old 07-13-2019, 12:12 AM   #137
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Next on netphoria: hetero pride day is totally valid!

 
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Old 07-13-2019, 12:13 AM   #138
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also netphoria: blue lives matter!

 
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Old 07-13-2019, 12:13 AM   #139
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lagical fallacies

 
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Old 07-13-2019, 12:14 AM   #140
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I mean phallusies

 
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Old 07-13-2019, 12:25 AM   #141
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Yes that is exactly what I believe, definitely not the complete polar opposite.

 
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Old 07-13-2019, 01:02 AM   #142
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Why not? We've got people arguing with a straight face that reverse racism exists.
Might as well complete the set.

 
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Old 07-13-2019, 01:57 AM   #143
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Ovary is the only person that said that, and I don't know who the fuck they are

 
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Old 07-13-2019, 06:32 AM   #144
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man i didnt say that i think its a good concept, just that it doesn't make sense, nor is it rhetorically effective, to say it "doesn't exist."

but labelle doesnt want to argue about reverse racism, she just wants to call people racists in snide ways.

 
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Old 07-13-2019, 06:33 AM   #145
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also i identify as she/her/hers dont misgender me you neanderthal

 
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Old 07-13-2019, 06:49 AM   #146
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I didn't accuse you of saying that reverse racism is a good concept, I accused you of saying that it exists.

 
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Old 07-13-2019, 06:55 AM   #147
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also i identify as she/her/hers dont misgender me you neanderthal
"They" is a gender-neutral pronoun, and is especially useful when someone's gender identity is not known to the speaker.

But you knew that, right?

 
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Old 07-13-2019, 07:19 AM   #148
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Ovary is the only person that said that, and I don't know who the fuck they are
I don't blame you for not reading or making sense of Disco King's posts, but why the fuck are you giving me shit about it.

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man i didnt say that i think its a good concept, just that it doesn't make sense, nor is it rhetorically effective, to say it "doesn't exist."

but labelle doesnt want to argue about reverse racism, she just wants to call people racists in snide ways.
Who are you
I didn't call anyone racist you idiotic mouthbreather.

 
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Old 07-13-2019, 07:23 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by LaBelle View Post
I don't blame you for not reading or making sense of Disco King's posts, but why the fuck are you giving me shit about it.
I could ask the exact same thing, word-for-word, of you.

 
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Old 07-13-2019, 07:32 AM   #150
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yall can either engage with the argument or keep slinging shit. you fucking freaks!

 
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