Netphoria before "Negativity"

[Gooch]

I was here before 200, lurking in 97-98. I remember when the theme changed to Adore as well (when was that - curious to know). It was so exciting. And many times it was mean spirited aggressiveness and negativity but u knew where it was coming from and everyone had "an understanding" and people on here were so nice and giving, most anyway. (except for the L33t hoarders). And how awesome was it when the Font sets came out? And checking in the main page every day to see it change to the machina theme (which it never did). Adore came out, seeing the euro free shows outside made me jealous that the USA couldn't do the same thing, but being inspired by the proceeds all going to charity. And then the Arising shows were amazing. If you missed the Arising era, you missed out. That I think was the perfect time to be on Netphoria. The mixture of excitement, cynicism, frustration, and surprise made you check the site every single day for the latest news. We all felt like something big was going to happen. Checking SPFC every night to see the setlists. Which used to change all the time btw, made it soooo much more interesting. Checking Jereon's site to see if anything new came up, spending hours downloading one mp3 at a time. I remember tank girl (shandi?) who's only goal in life was to own every single recording no matter the quality. She was super nice to do B+P's with me. The triple tree excitement was awesome. Checking people's boot lists, remember that?

[MonumentsRocks]

Originally Posted by Shadaloo

But MTaE specifically disappoints me because it comes across as a very transparent attempt to catch mainstream attention by angling for a Coldplay sound and current music trends by creating a short, poppy, digestible, un-challenging work without any palpable amount of effort put into it: bite-size paint-by-numbers SP with no lyrical depth. I know BC can do better, always contended he could, and to see him throw out a work that reeked of desperation was as disappointing as it was sad.

I don't like the term "sell-out" and never have. I don't give a shit what sound a band turns to if that's where their muse takes them. MTaE didn't feel earnest, and coming from a band that already put out a shirt back in in 1993 or so admitting they "sold out", I never thought Bill actually really did in the truest sense of the term until he put that album out. I'll go to bat for half of ZG, about half of Oceania, and one or two tracks off TG. But fuck MTaE forever.

For all the grief it's caused, I always respected Bill for a lot for his stubborn "my way or the highway" attitude, but that album was him throwing his hands up in the air in a desperate bid for some kind of attention. I'm convinced he's secretly ashamed of it, and it's the real reason he shitcanned Day For Night - it was going to be more of the same and he saw it was getting him nowhere. And maybe he knew he could do better.

And I'm specifically here because :

A) This is basically the last standing big place with SP history and it feels proper to be a part of it

B) There is a sense of community on a message board not matched by the likes of Reddit

C) Negativity and trolling aside I enjoy discussing SP with people I know have been longtime fans and reading a wide array of diverse opinions.

D) Hot leeks yo

E) I'm also not going to be part of any fucking community that censors criticism and encourages sycophancy. I don't give a shit what the Sad Machines members do with their lives but I'd rather not hang around where love for a band outweighs the capacity for analysis, discussion and informed interpretation. There is no such thing as a band with a flawless discography (cue the Boris joke here).

F) There are really good people here and I like interacting with them. Obvs.

G) For some reason I do still want to believe the band is capable of putting out good stuff again. There are occasions like Silvery Sometimes where I feel I'm justified in that.

I see a contradiction in this post, and all the other posts like it; on the one hand you supposedly mean well and wish for the best, but at the same time it's if you go out of your way to take the biggest, smelliest dump possible on the music and the artists, with remarks like "fuck MTaE forever", "work that reeked of desperation was as disappointing as it was sad". That's not critique, that's invective.

There are two ways to looks at everything, in a charitable way, or in the worst light possible. Even taking your own view, you could say "good on Billy for trying to make a quick, poppy album in an attempt to reach new fans, too bad it didn't work, maybe Day for Night would have had a hit single.", but instead you opt for the worst view possible, as if you secretly delight in his failure, strangely enough.

I can see why you and others might delight in his failure, he's an asshole, no question about it, but let's recognize this situation for what it is.

[Gooch]

Originally Posted by pale_princess

You know why we come here? And by "we" I mean the "negative" (read: critical and have non-sycophantic opinions) fans... Netphoria is basically like a support group for recovering SP addicts.

Yes.

[Eulogy]

I didn’t read the whole thread (I know I know sorry) but was here a tiny bit pre- final shows and then regularly starting in 2001 and it was so much worse as far as people being mean to each other

[Eulogy]

I think people liked zeitgeist initially? Or at least the ten second clip of tarantula?

[smashingjj]

Originally Posted by MonumentsRocks

I see a contradiction in this post, and all the other posts like it; on the one hand you supposedly mean well and wish for the best, but at the same time it's if you go out of your way to take the biggest, smelliest dump possible on the music and the artists, with remarks like "fuck MTaE forever", "work that reeked of desperation was as disappointing as it was sad". That's not critique, that's invective.

There are two ways to looks at everything, in a charitable way, or in the worst light possible. Even taking your own view, you could say "good on Billy for trying to make a quick, poppy album in an attempt to reach new fans, too bad it didn't work, maybe Day for Night would have had a hit single.", but instead you opt for the worst view possible, as if you secretly delight in his failure, strangely enough.

I can see why you and others might delight in his failure, he's an asshole, no question about it, but let's recognize this situation for what it is.

wtf

despising the album is a valid thing to do

a lot of people think it really fucking sucks. so do I, deal with it

[smashingjj]

everything from machina on really sucked to be honest. I am still here though, quelle horreur

[MonumentsRocks]

Originally Posted by smashingjj

wtf

despising the album is a valid thing to do

a lot of people think it really fucking sucks. so do I, deal with it

Look at this vitriol. You're just validating my point.

[FoolofaTook]

MonumentsTrolls

[pale_princess]

lmao monuments. some people like, some people don't like :shrug:

[MonumentsRocks]

Originally Posted by FoolofaTook

MonumentsTrolls

"everybody I disagree with is a troll"

[smashedguava]

Gish acoustic demos hoax anyone?

[Oklahoma Sexual]

Originally Posted by MonumentsRocks

"everybody I disagree with is a troll"

fake views

[MplsTaper]

Originally Posted by Gooch

Checking people's boot lists, remember that?

I remember that. Started around 96/97 (maybe 95) but for a while all I had access to were mp3s on napster. I tried to avoid spending $20-$30 on a bootleg at a record store or pawn shop but they always made me smile when I ran into them. It was fun going to Luna and SPFC to read up on what was all out there though. Printing lyrics, interviews and boot descriptions off the 2 previously mentioned sites and others in the computer lab at school because I didn't have a computer at home. I also remember getting emails from Listessa and trying to keep up on that using an old hotmail account I no longer have access to.

Then in the early 2000s downloading torrents from sharingthegroove.org which turned into The Traders' Den or Dime a Dozen. This all makes me want to start a separate thread (been wanting to for a bit actually) about the old DC++ Hub that was around 2002-2005. I finally starting taping shows on my own in 2004 because of all the "I only trade master for master" BS in the trading community. When I lurked on Netphoria in the early/mid '00s I think I mostly just hung out in the Live Recordings forum. I don't remember being on the O board for whatever reason. How about accessing #smashingpumpkins on EFnet through the mIRC app? christ we're all going to die some day.

[smashingjj]

Originally Posted by MonumentsRocks

"everybody I disagree with is a troll"

wasn't that sort of your point though?

[DaveKShape]

I've been here a long time and I think at first everyone was kind of immature and enjoyed doing ridiculous/dumb things like the links (goatse, lemonparty, etc.), but overall was down with Corgan and the band. We all grew up and did less of this joke stuff as time has gone on.

I think where things went awry is when Corgan produced mediocre music and then chastised the fans for "not understanding" where he was coming from, etc. Like, he literally punished his fanbase by withholding an album because someone said something negative about it. And even then, he was bitter towards true fans that wanted to hear deep cuts, and also chastised casual fans that wanted to hear 1979, etc.

Also for awhile here, there were a few posters (Monte, Corganist) who literally had no ability to constructively view the band's work and were complete and utter homers, and in a weird way served as a foil that generated "negativity." That negativity was less about the band itself and more a reaction to blind allegiance (which ironically, is exactly what Corgan thinks constitutes a real fan).

For me, the real breaking point was around the 20th Anniversary Tour where he either a) blatantly trolled everyone by playing shit like Set the Controls or b) thought what he was doing actually had artistic merit. He treated everyone (including Jimmy, who left shortly after) like complete garbage. It was a lot harder to take his work seriously after that, and as far as I'm concerned, he's still got a long way to go towards true removal of judgment.

[MonumentsRocks]

Originally Posted by smashingjj

wasn't that sort of your point though?

Not even close.

[Shadaloo]

Originally Posted by MonumentsRocks

I see a contradiction in this post, and all the other posts like it; on the one hand you supposedly mean well and wish for the best, but at the same time it's if you go out of your way to take the biggest, smelliest dump possible on the music and the artists, with remarks like "fuck MTaE forever", "work that reeked of desperation was as disappointing as it was sad". That's not critique, that's invective.

There are two ways to looks at everything, in a charitable way, or in the worst light possible. Even taking your own view, you could say "good on Billy for trying to make a quick, poppy album in an attempt to reach new fans, too bad it didn't work, maybe Day for Night would have had a hit single.", but instead you opt for the worst view possible, as if you secretly delight in his failure, strangely enough.

I can see why you and others might delight in his failure, he's an asshole, no question about it, but let's recognize this situation for what it is.

The fact that I feel very strongly about the music through the years means it's inevitable that I let loose some of my emotions about it when I discuss it. That's not because I'm overflowing with hate for Billy or want him to fail or anything, it's because Bill's music - all of it - did and still does mean just that much to me.

When I discuss Machina I and II, I gush over the narrative. On New Years' Day last year I got just blitzed enough on white wine to let myself go and do a song-by-song analysis of each one's themes, what it covers, and where I think everything fits storywise. At the time I considered it embarrassing, but now I'm kinda proud of it. Shit, I'm even making Machina II companion lyric booklets in the style of the original albums' artwork to share with the community, because the reissue's apparently going to use new art and I'd like to have an option available for anyone like myself who has an appreciation for the originals' aesthetic (not because I believe offhand the new art will inevitably suck or anything).

There is no "new SP sucks and I want Bill to fail" with me. I firmly believe Ma Belle is one of the twenty best tracks he's ever written - it makes me tear up every time I listen to it - and that is saying a lot because of the sheer amount of quality tracks he has put out over the years. I also believe Ogilala is a pleasant rainy-day album, and I'm still stunned by how good and heartfelt Archer is. Bring up a post-reunion track, any one. I'll tell you what I love and hate about it as much as there is of either. Any album.

If you want me to criticise MTaE in more impartial terms, I can do that. The lyrics are repetitive and more often than not paint so abstract a picture as to paint nothing at all - I think Being Beige and One And All are about the only ones that come close to being 'about' anything. Barring Tiberius, the songs have no sonic bite. The synths sound misplaced and cheesy. The polished production is nice, but it's like looking through a spotless window at an empty wall - there's no substance.

I don't delight in his failure. I don't go out of my way to shit on him because I see his asshole remarks and tendencies as the product of a life plagued by abuse, the excesses of fame, and the bitterness of a fall from grace, and all the way through having to contend with psychological disorder. Every time he lashes out at someone it's in the most hurtful way possible because perpetually, deep inside, he is a wounded child.

Intimating that I want him to fail's a disingenuous way to describe my feelings. I think Silvery Sometimes is a pretty good track on the whole, and without the dragged-out opening bit, the video is probably the best music video out of the band since 1998 - light-hearted and silly, in other words, classic SP vibes to me. I'm glad the Shiny tour was much more successful than anyone could have predicted.

But I can never say the phrase "Good on Billy for trying to make a quick poppy album" because it is, full stop, something I think he is absolutely above and not something the SP name has ever stood for. It was a point where I think he just completely stopped following his muse. And I don't believe it was about trying to reach new fans - it was about trying to achieve commercial success. Different things. I'm not "happy the album failed" as much as I am "glad it was a learning experience for him and he changed directions".

I don't want him to put out fifteen different iterations of Bodies or As Rome Burns - I just want him to put out work that really speaks to people and moves them like he used to do constantly without even trying.

And you know, some people around here actually do dig MTaE. Good on them. Just not my cup of tea and will never be.

[smashingjj]

Originally Posted by MonumentsRocks

Not even close.

Right, cause for a minute it really felt like someone being butthurt because other people didn't like an album you do like

[MonumentsRocks]

Originally Posted by DaveKShape

I think where things went awry is when Corgan produced mediocre music and then chastised the fans for "not understanding" where he was coming from, etc. Like, he literally punished his fanbase by withholding an album because someone said something negative about it. And even then, he was bitter towards true fans that wanted to hear deep cuts, and also chastised casual fans that wanted to hear 1979, etc.

I think what you're saying goes to show that Billy Corgan is/was mostly right; fans are claiming his music is "mediocre" because they don't appreciate where he wanted to take the Smashing Pumpkins brand. Zwan and TFE showed that Corgan wanted to go for a more upbeat, less goth sound, but he needed to exploit the Smashing Pumkins brand in order to sell records. People seem to feel they have part ownership in the brand because they grew up with Smashing Pumpkins, as evidenced by people on this forum, saying here that they can't let go. So then Billy gets mad at his fans, and his fans get mad at him, its hatred all around, but nobody is willing to split up because they all think they're entitled to keep the house.

If you load up most post 2007 stuff in YouTube, Zeitgeist, Teargarden, even MTaE, and you look at the comments, you see lots of very positive remarks. It goes to show that there are a lot of people who like the music he made post 2007, and it disproves the idea that Billy made bad music. If someone out there likes it, it aint bad.

[smashingjj]

See monumentssucks, i don't like the Machinas, and you can choose to act like an adult about it like shadaloo who does like em. Opinions, man.

[MonumentsRocks]

Originally Posted by smashingjj

Right, cause for a minute it really felt like someone being butthurt because other people didn't like an album you do like

This forum is the definition of butthurt.

[Kahlo]

Originally Posted by MonumentsRocks

I think what you're saying goes to show that Billy Corgan is/was mostly right; fans are claiming his music is "mediocre" because they don't appreciate where he wanted to take the Smashing Pumpkins brand. Zwan and TFE showed that Corgan wanted to go for a more upbeat, less goth sound, but he needed to exploit the Smashing Pumkins brand in order to sell records. People seem to feel they have part ownership in the brand because they grew up with Smashing Pumpkins, as evidenced by people on this forum, saying here that they can't let go. So then Billy gets mad at his fans, and his fans get mad at him, its hatred all around, but nobody is willing to split up because they all think they're entitled to keep the house.

I think you mean Monuments was mediocre because it had a commercial generic sound - that's the greatest issue with that album. It felt lazy and somewhat forced. If it was any other band it probably wouldn't have merited a second listen.

Fans here listened to his first solo album repeatedly because it was odd and angular, and demanded time. It was a departure. Monuments was just nothing music.

I get your point over the fan investment fallacy, but yeah - defending that one record feels like a waste of time, and an insult to Netohoria which while harsh, does give records a chance.

[Bat Strat Dude]

I've been here for less than a year. Not sure why it took me so long to stumble across Netphoria, even though I've been an SP fan for years. I do tend to be more of a forum lurker, than active contributor, though...

As for "negativity", I don't know that this place is any worse than the internet in general. Every read Youtube comments? Now, THAT shit is toxic.

I do find it rather quaint that Netphoria even exists still. Fan pages/boards feel like such a relic from the 90s. Not unlike the Pumpkins, I guess.

I'm with the other posters who say they are here because they're waiting for another (however unlikely) Corgan masterpeice. I'm in the minority in that I actually like TBK, and a lot of the SP2 material...

[MonumentsRocks]

Originally Posted by Kahlo

I think you mean Monuments was mediocre because it had a commercial generic sound - that's the greatest issue with that album. It felt lazy and somewhat forced. If it was any other band it probably wouldn't have merited a second listen.

Fans here listened to his first solo album repeatedly because it was odd and angular, and demanded time. It was a departure. Monuments was just nothing music.

I get your point over the fan investment fallacy, but yeah - defending that one record feels like a waste of time, and an insult to Netohoria which while harsh, does give records a chance.

Bands like Foofighters are basically "commercial generic sound" at all times, and it works for them. It's a hollow, expedient critique. Billy made his own bed by picking fights with Soundgarden, Courtney Love, D'arcy, etc. made nearly everyone take a side against him, so no matter what Billy releases, people will seek out the chink in the armor, and seize upon that to say "it's mediocre". Billy is a flawed person, and I'm certain that's part of what makes his art so interesting, including his more recent works. You have to take the good with the bad.

[topleybird]

Originally Posted by MonumentsRocks

It goes to show that there are a lot of people who like the music he made post 2007, and it disproves the idea that Billy made bad music. If someone out there likes it, it aint bad.

I want you to sit and think about that last sentence for, like, five minutes straight and get back to me

[smashingjj]

Originally Posted by MonumentsRocks

This forum is the definition of butthurt.

no, this forum is the definition of not sugarcoating it when something sucks.

mate sucks.

[smashingjj]

mate, mtae sucks.

[MonumentsRocks]

Originally Posted by smashingjj

no, this forum is the definition of not sugarcoating it when something sucks.

mate sucks.

I hope Billy continues to make music that sucks, because I LOVE music that sucks. By all accounts, loads more of sucky music is on the way.

I don't know what to tell the rest of you, I guess you're out of luck.

[smashingjj]

see, that's what's up. dealing with it as we speak.