I thought the VA sniper was bad enough

[Why Am I So Ugly?]

**********: (1) The ICT devised several specific categories, later summarized into combatant and non-combatant estimates. In the final ICT analysis, only violent protestors, full combatants and probable (meaning likely but not proven) combatants were counted as combatants. All others, including the fourth of all Palestinian cases where no evidence was available, counted as noncombatants

so kids who throw stones are coutned as combatants?

[Samsa]

Originally posted by Why Am I So Ugly?

i expect the israeli govt to halt the oppression of the palestinian people. stop the settlements. stop the demolotion of their homes. stop putting up road blocks so palestinians can get to their jobs, stop storming in houses overturning furniture, urinating on their carpets, and leaving while "looking for terrorists". stop fucking shooting at kids and ambulances that try to get to the wounded kids that are being shot. stop singling out every palestinian you see at checkpoints. stop giving privelages to people who have ID cards that show theyre jewish. stop ignoring every possible UN resolution and international law. The balance of power in the region is in overwhelming favor for the Israeli govt. they have the power to do all these things thus they have the responsibility to do so. they are in control. I never said suicide bombers are excused for killing innocent people, but the rest of the palestinian nation shouldnt have to suffer because of a product of Israeli oppression. the israeli people shouldnt have to die while loading buses or eating at cafes because their govt treats the people who a few miles away like shit.

im curious to hear your explanation as to why Israel is occupying Palestinian land. Ive seen interviews with Jewish settlers saying it was their god given right to live in the occupied territories being the "chosen people" and the most lenient of them said Palestinians could live near by if they behaved.

you're acting as if there aren't consequences to the complete liberation of occupied territories. if there weren't any consequences, and if israeli withdrawal meant peace for all of eternity, don't you think that this would have occurred by now? palestinian extremists and extremists from the other surrounding nations don't want to compromise. that's why. if israel withdrew from the west bank there's a good chance that they'd be attacked again. the peace treaties with jordan and egypt were relatively recent and these countries still only tolerate israel. it's not an issue of 'just withdraw'. they don't want to be annihilated. and of course there are israeli extremists too. there are always going to be crazies bug i guess the difference is that the israeli extremists really don't have much of a hold on the parliament, even though some people would call sharon extreme. if that makes any sense. you can't just sit there while these people that live all around you plot your total destruction. it's not gonna happen.

[Samsa]

Originally posted by Why Am I So Ugly?
**********: (1) The ICT devised several specific categories, later summarized into combatant and non-combatant estimates. In the final ICT analysis, only violent protestors, full combatants and probable (meaning likely but not proven) combatants were counted as combatants. All others, including the fourth of all Palestinian cases where no evidence was available, counted as noncombatants

so kids who throw stones are coutned as combatants?

i guess so. i think they started out with being hit with rubber bullets (which can still be fatal) but as time went by it elevated. and i don't think the rocks they were throwing were especially pebble-like in size.

[Why Am I So Ugly?]

Originally posted by Samsa


you're acting as if there aren't consequences to the complete liberation of occupied territories. if there weren't any consequences, and if israeli withdrawal meant peace for all of eternity, don't you think that this would have occurred by now? palestinian extremists and extremists from the other surrounding nations don't want to compromise. that's why. if israel withdrew from the west bank there's a good chance that they'd be attacked again. the peace treaties with jordan and egypt were relatively recent and these countries still only tolerate israel. it's not an issue of 'just withdraw'. they don't want to be annihilated. and of course there are israeli extremists too. there are always going to be crazies bug i guess the difference is that the israeli extremists really don't have much of a hold on the parliament, even though some people would call sharon extreme. if that makes any sense. you can't just sit there while these people that live all around you plot your total destruction. it's not gonna happen.

If Isreal withdrew from the occupied territories, resolved other grievances like the right of return, and released their stranglehold on Palestine, of course there would be a lot more peace in the region. yeah there would still be a few extremists on the Palestinian side who would still plot more bombings until all jews are drive out. What country doesnt have people who plot for its destruction? That doesnt justify making an entire nation suffer- in fact think about what youre saying. Israelis are occupying territory not to mention all the other things it does that pisses off the palestinians to achieve peace and security? Those are the reasons why Hamas has no problem recruiting suicide bombers. THATS THE REASON WHY SUICIDE BOMBINGS ARE HAPPENING IN THE FIRST PLACE. Most of the Palestinian people just want to fucking live normal lives and would leave Israel alone if the grievances went away, but Isreal has never even given the palestinian people a chance to prove that (even though they shouldnt be in a position to "prove themselves" to live in their own homes) there would peace for both sides. Isreal has never completely withdrawn from the occupied territories for an extended period of time and until they withdraw permanently there will never be a chance for peace. So i dont believe security is the reason why Isreal is occupying Palestinian land. It doesnt make anyone safer.

Having said this, we're arguing in the wrong context. Its not Isreal's right to occupy any land outside of their boundaries. Theres no excuse for that. The UN realizes this and basically the entire world realizes it.

[Why Am I So Ugly?]

Originally posted by Samsa


i guess so. i think they started out with being hit with rubber bullets (which can still be fatal) but as time went by it elevated. and i don't think the rocks they were throwing were especially pebble-like in size.

if you cut open those "rubber" bullets youll see that theyre filled with metal, so yeah they can definetly be fatal

[Samsa]

Originally posted by Why Am I So Ugly?


If Isreal withdrew from the occupied territories, resolved other grievances like the right of return, and released their stranglehold on Palestine, of course there would be a lot more peace in the region. yeah there would still be a few extremists on the Palestinian side who would still plot more bombings until all jews are drive out. What country doesnt have people who plot for its destruction? That doesnt justify making an entire nation suffer- in fact think about what youre saying. Israelis are occupying territory not to mention all the other things it does that pisses off the palestinians to achieve peace and security? Those are the reasons why Hamas has no problem recruiting suicide bombers. THATS THE REASON WHY SUICIDE BOMBINGS ARE HAPPENING IN THE FIRST PLACE. Most of the Palestinian people just want to fucking live normal lives and would leave Israel alone if the grievances went away, but Isreal has never even given the palestinian people a chance to prove that (even though they shouldnt be in a position to "prove themselves" to live in their own homes) there would peace for both sides. Isreal has never completely withdrawn from the occupied territories for an extended period of time and until they withdraw permanently there will never be a chance for peace. So i dont believe security is the reason why Isreal is occupying Palestinian land. It doesnt make anyone safer.

Having said this, we're arguing in the wrong context. Its not Isreal's right to occupy any land outside of their boundaries. Theres no excuse for that. The UN realizes this and basically the entire world realizes it.

your argument is historically proven false. it's been attacked in the past and who's to say they won't be attacked in the future. you can argue all you want for the liberation of the west bank but i assure you it's not going to happen until certain surrounding nations stop wishing for the murder of all jews living in israel. i'm sorry you don't realize that. it's not as easy as 'we leave the west bank and you stop fighting' because certain people have made it clear that they won't rest until they have conquered the whole israeli territory. why should israel have to put itself in severe danger of destruction just because the surrounding nations won't compromise or at least do something to prevent the people who won't?

[Why Am I So Ugly?]

Originally posted by Samsa


i assure you it's not going to happen until certain surrounding nations stop wishing for the murder of all jews living in israel. i'm sorry you don't realize that.

they wish that BECAUSE Isreal is occupying the territories, BECAUSE of the treatment of Palestinians. Jews and Arabs have lived in peace before. before there was an Isreal

[Why Am I So Ugly?]

in fact when there was an influx of Jews into historical Palestine in the early twentieth century Jews were the ones who were terrorizing Palestinians. The Stern and Irgun gangs drove Palestinians out of their homes

[Samsa]

Originally posted by Why Am I So Ugly?

they wish that BECAUSE Isreal is occupying the territories, BECAUSE of the treatment of Palestinians. Jews and Arabs have lived in peace before. before there was an Isreal

no, they wished it beforehand too. the west bank wasn't occupied until 1967 and there had already been what, 2,3 wars of existence by then?

[Samsa]

Originally posted by Why Am I So Ugly?
in fact when there was an influx of Jews into historical Palestine in the early twentieth century Jews were the ones who were terrorizing Palestinians. The Stern and Irgun gangs drove Palestinians out of their homes

wow what an unbiased statement.

[Why Am I So Ugly?]

Originally posted by Samsa


no, they wished it beforehand too. the west bank wasn't occupied until 1967 and there had already been what, 2,3 wars of existence by then?

the west bank wasnt occupied at the time, but Palestinian land in what is present day Israel was taken away from them

[Samsa]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sta...ians/timeline/

haven't really inspected it and it's bbc-done and that sorta makes me go :erm but they're i guess. more reliable than Some.

[Samsa]

Originally posted by Why Am I So Ugly?


the west bank wasnt occupied at the time, but Palestinian land in what is present day Israel was taken away from them

the british had taken it away a long time ago. it was british-occupied land, and then it was divided in half, and then this big fucking war happened that i still don't exactly understand.

[Why Am I So Ugly?]

Originally posted by Samsa


wow what an unbiased statement.

its a fact
http://www.rense.com/general21/pastzionist.htm
Past Zionist-Jewish Terrorism -
Some Historical Facts
From A Concerned American
3-23-2

Following are just a few of the many massacres committed by Jewish-Zionist terrorists, notably by the Zionist Hagana, Irgun and Stern Gang groups.

Don't expect any Hollywood films highlighting any of these massacres:

1. King David Hotel, July 22, 1946.
2. Sharafat, Feb. 7, 1951.
3. Deir Yassin, April 10, 1948.
4. Falameh, April 2, 1951.
5. Naseruddine, April 14, 1948.
6. Quibya, Oct. 14, 1953.
7. Carmel, April 20, 1948.
8. Nahalin, March, 28, 1954.
9. Al-Qabu, May 1, 1948.
10. Gaza, Feb. 28, 1955.
11. Beit Kiras, May 3, 1948.
12. Khan Yunis, May 31, 1955.
13. Beitkhoury, May 5, 1948.
14. Khan Yunis Again, Aug. 31, 1955
15. Az-Zaytoun, May 6, 1948.
16. Tiberia, Dec. 11, 1955.
17. Wadi Araba, May 13, 1950.
18. As-Sabha, Nov. 2, 1955.
19. Gaza Again, April 5, 1956.
20. Houssan, Sept. 25, 1956.
21. Rafa, Aug. 16, 1956.
22. Qalqilyah, Oct. 10, 1956.
23. Ar-Rahwa, Sept. 12, 1956.
24. Kahr Kassem, Oct. 29, 1956.
25. Gharandal, Sept. 13, 1956.
26. Gaza Strip, Nov. 1956.
26. Gaza Strip, Nov. 1956.

July 2, 1946: The King David Hotel in Jerusalem was bombed, killing 91 people.

Menachem Begin, who was later awarded the Nobel Prize for peace, is the same man who planned the destruction of the King David Hotel and the massacre of Deir Yassin. Ex prime minister, Shamir, was originally a member of the Jewish terrorist gang called Irgun, which was headed by none other than Menachem Begin. Shamir later moved over to the even more radical "Stern Gang," which committed many vicious atrocities.

Shamir himself has defended the various assassinations committed by the Irgun and Stern gangs on the grounds that "it was the only way we could operate, because we were so small. So it was more efficient and more moral to go for selected targets." The selected moral targets in those early days of the founding of the state of Israel *******d bombing of the King David Hotel and the massacre of Deir Yassin.

April 9, 1948: A combined force of Irgun and Stern Gangs committed a brutal massacre of 260 Arab residents of the village of Deir Yassin. Most of whom were women and children. The Israeli hordes even attacked the dead to satisfy their bestial tendencies. In April, 1954, during Holy Week, and on the eve of Easter, The Christian cemeteries in Haifa were invaded, crosses broken down and trampled under the feet of these miscreants, and the tombs desecrated. The Israeli military conquest, therefore was made against a defenseless people, who had been softened up by such earlier massacres as Deir Yasin (where 250 Arabs; men, women and children were massacred).

The Jew, Weizman, referred to the massacre as this "miraculous simplification of our task," and Ben Gurion said that "without Deir Yasin there would be no Israel." Americans are not told that ten percent of the Arabs killed by the Israelis in 1948 were Christian, and that ten percent of the Arab property confiscated belonged to Christians. Nor are they told that Israel's massacres and military actions forced 100,000 Christians to become refugees.

Accounts by Red Cross and United Nations observers who visited the scene said that the houses were first set on fire and the occupants were shot down as they came out to escape the flames. One pregnant woman had her baby cut out of her stomach with a knife. Reminiscent of the acts committed by their brother Jews in Russia during and after the Bolshevik (Jewish) takeover. The head of the International Red Cross delegation in Palestine, Jacques de Reynier, drove into the village and was met by a detachment of Irgun terrorists. In his report of the massacre the previous night, he wrote: "All of them were young, some even adolescents, men and women armed to the teeth: revolvers, machine-guns, hand-grenades, and knives, most of them still blood-stained. A beautiful young girl with criminal eyes showed me hers (knife) still dripping with blood, she displayed it like a trophy."

May 1948: The U.S. appointed Count Folke Bernadotte of Sweden to mediate between the Arabs and the Israelis. In his first progress report (of Sept. 16, 1948) he recommended that the U.N. should affirm "the right of the Arab refugees to return to their homes in Jewish controlled territory at the earliest possible date." The Israelis responded in their own quiet way. The following day Bernadotte was murdered in Jerusalem.

Responsibility for the spectacular assassination, which caused an international outcry, was claimed by an unknown group, "Fatherland Front," which was actually a cover for Shamir's Stern Gang. Yoshua Zeitler and Meshlam Markover of Stern told Israeli television in 1989 that they respectively directed and led the operation that killed the Swedish diplomat and his French aide-de-camp. Zeitler, 71, said he decided to speak now because of fear that the U.N. and the "goyim" (non-Jews) are again trying to force Israel into concessions.

February 1949: Israel launched an offensive across the Armistice lines with Egypt which brought its forces to the Gulf of Aqaba, occupying the Palestinian police post of Umm Rashrash which they afterwards named Eilat.

1950: Israelis seized the Al-Uja de-militarized zone on the Egyptian side and Baqqara on the Syrian side, expelling their Arab inhabitants and razed their homes to the ground by bulldozers.

1950-1955: Israeli forces unleashed more than 40 acts of armed aggressions against Arab states, almost all causing a heavy loss of life. This *******d attacks and massacres in Qibya, Huleh 1953, Nahalin, Kfar Qassem in 1954, Gaza and a Syrian outpost on Lake Tiberias in 1955.

October 14-1 5, 1953 -- Under the command of Ariel Sharon, Israeli squads attacked the unarmed Arab village of Qibya in the demilitarized one. Where they blew up 42 houses and killed more than 60 residents who were trapped inside. The details were so gruesome that the U.S. joined in a U.N. condemnation of the Israeli action, and for the first and only time, suspended aid to Israel in reprisal.

July 1954: Israeli intelligence planted "a ring of spies (moles)" in Cairo. Its task was to begin sabotage operations against selected Egyptian, British and American targets. On July 14, the Alexandria post office was fire-bombed, and the U.S. Information Agency offices in Cairo and Alexandria were damaged by fire started by phosphorous incendiary devices, as was a British-owned theater.

Members of the spy ring were caught, and they confessed. They had been planted by Modin, the Israeli military intelligence organization. The purpose, presumably, was to sabotage Egyptian relations with the U.S. and Britain. Various commissions of inquiry into the affair conducted in Israel were never able to decide whether or not Israeli Defense Minister Pinchos Lavon authorized the operation.

[Why Am I So Ugly?]

Originally posted by Samsa


the british had taken it away a long time ago. it was british-occupied land, and then it was divided in half, and then this big fucking war happened that i still don't exactly understand.

yeah it was some Mandate. Basically some British diplomat made conflicting promises to both the Palestinians and the Jews for a state and favor for Israel materialized after the holocaust because of the guilt. Ugh. i took a course on this that documents this issue pretty well. i should dig up my notes next time i go home.

[Samsa]

funny when you compare the bbc thing to the cnn one

javascriptpenWindow('/SPECIALS/2001/mideast/interactive/timeline/frameset.exclude.html','largewindow','toolbar=no,l ocation=no,directories=no,status=no,menubar=no,scr ollbars=yes,resizable=no,width=620,height=430')

somewhere in between is the truth umm just in case tha tlink doesn't work

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/mideast/

go there adn click on timeline

[Samsa]

Originally posted by Why Am I So Ugly?


yeah it was some Mandate. Basically some British diplomat made conflicting promises to both the Palestinians and the Jews for a state and favor for Israel materialized after the holocaust because of the guilt. Ugh. i took a course on this that documents this issue pretty well. i should dig up my notes next time i go home.

yeah but then there was still the promise of splitting it into two separate nations. and then something happened. and i've seriously concluded no one really knows what happened in 1948. i don't see how that's possible but there are so many conflicting reports that it just blows my mind. how can you not know what happened?