Another USA gun massacre

[TheAeroplane]

Originally Posted by Starla

A radicalized muslim extremist who happens to also be homophobic did this, but I think I'll just place the blame on christians instead.

Not all Muslims are like that. Look at this video of moderate Muslims clearly distancing themselves from the extreme ones.

https://youtu.be/dPSg8nulnhk

Allah Akbar !

[JESUSNEEDSAHIT]

id ont understand why can we ban someone for facetiously saying they hope someone dies but we can't do anything about posters who repeatedly display racism over and over

does ths place have standards or not, it's gott abe one way or the other

[Disco King]

Originally Posted by TheAeroplane

Not all Muslims are like that. Look at this video of moderate Muslims clearly distancing themselves from the extreme ones.

https://youtu.be/dPSg8nulnhk

Allah Akbar !

Hey, a group of Muslims said that all Muslims believe in the death penalty for gays. That's clearly evidence that all Muslims believe in the death penalty for gays.

[slunken]

Facebook page and Youtube channel ' Side Thorn ' is offering a $ 100,000 Reward if you can prove anybody died at the Orlando nightclub ...

[FoolofaTook]

Muslims are some of the chillest.mofos ever.

And its allahU akbar you imbecile.

[redbreegull]

If there is any group of people who truly treats kindness, generosity, and hospitality with the reverence of a religious duty, it is Muslims.

but you know Westboro Baptist Church says Christianity is about hating America and faggots, so we better treat this random ass group of psychos as the ultimate authority and spokesperson for a billion individuals because they say so

[teh b0lly!!1]

Originally Posted by redbreegull

If there is any group of people who truly treats kindness, generosity, and hospitality with the reverence of a religious duty, it is Muslims.

why yes, muslims have a reputation of being the world's nicest people. "live and let live", that's their motto

[Elphenor]

It is indeed an unfathomable level of stupidity to blame a religion where 99% of the followers are completely peaceful for the actions of what are clearly psychopaths

[Elphenor]

Bill Maher is the literal worst about this if anyone likes to watch his show

[redbreegull]

Bill Maher is generally an acute guy, but he has some psychological complex with religion that a lot of elitist white secular types display. It's ultimately just another form of othering and prejudice. Religion has been used to justify lots of horrible things throughout history but it's plain ignorant to claim that religion is "nothing but a system of control," ignoring the other side of the coin that has been used to justify art, medicine, architecture, science, social progressiveness and humanitarianism. No religion is responsible for the fact that humans can be fucking hateful pieces of shit. I truly don't believe any healthy person living a productive and stable life has ever picked up a religious text and gone and killed someone because of it. To me that is no different than blaming the Beatles for Charles Manson.

[teh b0lly!!1]

nothing in life is black and white.

people are extremely susceptible to influence and bias, and when they get it their trajectories can change in very significant ways. you can't say the source of influence is 100% responsible for it, but it plays a major role in the ultimate outcome

[teh b0lly!!1]

Originally Posted by redbreegull

Bill Maher is generally an acute guy, but he has some psychological complex with religion that a lot of elitist white secular types display. It's ultimately just another form of othering and prejudice. Religion has been used to justify lots of horrible things throughout history but it's plain ignorant to claim that religion is "nothing but a system of control," ignoring the other side of the coin that has been used to justify art, medicine, architecture, science, social progressiveness and humanitarianism. No religion is responsible for the fact that humans can be fucking hateful pieces of shit. I truly don't believe any healthy person living a productive and stable life has ever picked up a religious text and gone and killed someone because of it. To me that is no different than blaming the Beatles for Charles Manson.

and just because religion has made some extraordinary people produce incredible works of art, doesn't change the fact that religion IS a system of control, no matter which way you look at it. it's a very efficient way of overriding human defense mechanisms, and making them abide a certain set of rules that may or may not have made sense any other way.

[redbreegull]

that makes it no different than any other form of tribalism though


and the perception of the control element being the objective core versus a structure to keep people from killing each other and to behave in a way that allows society function is totally an arbitrary choice. you can say the exact same thing about "government"

[Elphenor]

Religion has very very little affect on people actually, so many other factors are thousands of times more influential

If you tell me someone is a Christian, I can literally assume nothing about their character from that information because they are not a homogeneous group in the slightest

[Elphenor]

I know this has been said a billion times but it's all in how you choose to interpret the texts. A religion will justify whatever your pre-existing beliefs already are. It is what you bring to it.

A Muslim is a person who says "Im a Muslim" there's nothing else that goes with it

[redbreegull]

hatred of Islam by Westerners is one of the ultimate ironies in the world to me. The Christian West is responsible for colonialism and imperialism, ideologies which have killed and enslaved more people than probably all other ideologies in the history of humanity combined.

[reprise85]

I don't think an adult would pick up a Bible/Koran and decide to commit murder out of nowhere, but have them grow up with it all around them and that's a different story. Yes, perhaps those who kill out of ideology would have found some other ideology to follow, but this is the world we have, and in it religious idealism is the backbone for a lot of suffering.

I think religion has done a lot of good things but it seems unnecessary for it to keep existing. It's rapidly approaching or past the point of diminishing returns.

[redbreegull]

Reprise I am not 100% sure what you mean by that, but I think the view that religion is "over and done" is really a Western thing because Christianity is diminishing in the face of other belief systems and methods of investigation which have simply proved more utilitarian to people. Islam is growing at a crazy rate.

[Elphenor]

Again all the major religions have things in them that basically tell you to go out and murder infidels but it is only psychopaths or those in extreme environments that do it

over 99% of those that practice religion are completely peaceful

I feel like this suggests that religion does not really influence people, it is too vague, too open to interpretation

It is instead a cultural quirk, a form of regional identity

[Elphenor]

Wars that were supposedly fought over religion are almost exclusively fought for land and resources

[Elphenor]

Originally Posted by redbreegull

Bill Maher is generally an acute guy, but he has some psychological complex with religion that a lot of elitist white secular types display. It's ultimately just another form of othering and prejudice. Religion has been used to justify lots of horrible things throughout history but it's plain ignorant to claim that religion is "nothing but a system of control," ignoring the other side of the coin that has been used to justify art, medicine, architecture, science, social progressiveness and humanitarianism. No religion is responsible for the fact that humans can be fucking hateful pieces of shit. I truly don't believe any healthy person living a productive and stable life has ever picked up a religious text and gone and killed someone because of it. To me that is no different than blaming the Beatles for Charles Manson.

I've always thought Bill Maher was the type of liberal that Americans hate

Super elitist "I know better than you" type. I like him because he's funny but I also think he's a douchebag

He's one of two types of liberals I think

The other being the Populist liberal who's belief is in Democracy and evening the power gap above all else people like Michael Moore

[redbreegull]

Marx was ultimately right that everything is about economics. There are structures and realities that build up around economics and then become acting forces of their own, but they cannot exist without economic substructures. Me having that coconut and you not having it is the driving force behind humanity.

[redbreegull]

Originally Posted by Elphenor

Michael Moore

I hate this guy too tbh


I'm just 100% done with anyone who twists categorical facts to get people behind them. I used to believe it was mostly conservatives who do this, but now I understand that liberals do it too, and there is this sort of subconscious belief that it's ok because it's in the service of a moral good. No. It's not ok. You're a fucking liar if you aren't reporting the facts to the utmost objective degree that you are capable

I just saw a Michael Moore status with like a million shares or whatever that blatantly, blatantly made up a lie about the AR-15 rifle that everyone is talking about. I'm very pro-gun control. I hate violence and I hate weapons. But there is no excuse for spreading lies to get people behind you. It underlines the inherent weakness of your argument or of yourself as a leader.

[Elphenor]

I'm not commenting on his character more that the way he reaches his beliefs is fundamentally different than the Maher type liberal though they come to the same conclusions most of the time.

Maher thinks most people are stupid and need a gov of smarties to make decisions for them

Moore thinks most people are just oppressed by the powers that be and need more Democracy

[reprise85]

Originally Posted by redbreegull

Reprise I am not 100% sure what you mean by that, but I think the view that religion is "over and done" is really a Western thing because Christianity is diminishing in the face of other belief systems and methods of investigation which have simply proved more utilitarian to people. Islam is growing at a crazy rate.

I'm not saying it's over and done. I'm saying it would be good if it were.

And elphy I agree it's psychopaths who join groups like ISIS and not ISIS who makes psychopaths.

[redbreegull]

I'm not commenting on his character more that the way he reaches his beliefs is fundamentally different than the Maher type liberal though they come to the same conclusions most of the time.

Maher thinks most people are stupid and need a gov of smarties to make decisions for them

Moore thinks most people are just oppressed by the powers that be and need more Democracy

oh, I understand now. tequila is a hell of a drug

[Disco King]

Originally Posted by Elphenor

Bill Maher is the literal worst about this if anyone likes to watch his show

Yeah, I kinda hate him. Especially because he has this elitist "in this moment I am euphoric because I am enlightened by my own rational intelligence" attitude, but at the same time, he's rabidly and unscientifically an anti-vaxxer and anti-GMO guy. He also seems to be one of those white liberal guys who thinks that being liberal is a get-out-of-jail-free card for saying racist of misogynistic things, and when anybody calls him out on it, he's like "wahh political correctness is censoring me wah you're not allowed to criticize me, because criticism = censorship." And yeah, there are plenty of reasons to be skeptical of religion, but his hate-on for it is more ideological than rational. He's one of those "religion is responsible for everything bad in the world; i have a cut on the roof of my mouth and religion is probably behind it somehow" types.

Originally Posted by redbreegull

I truly don't believe any healthy person living a productive and stable life has ever picked up a religious text and gone and killed someone because of it. To me that is no different than blaming the Beatles for Charles Manson.

Originally Posted by reprise85

And elphy I agree it's psychopaths who join groups like ISIS and not ISIS who makes psychopaths.

Research into the psychology of terrorism is pretty new and uncertain, but from what I understand, psychopathy has not been found to be a major indicator of radicalism or perpetration of terrorism. Many terrorists are, quite disturbingly, pretty "normal" people.

Research seems to suggest that radicalism and terrorism is linked more to feelings of one's group identity being threatened, the wish for group identity/camaraderie, narrow black-and-white thinking, the wish for glory and respect, etc. I think the answers to "why would somebody become a suicide bomber, harming others and knowing they will die in the process" will probably end up being eerily similar to the answers to "why would somebody enlist in the army, knowing they may see combat and die?"

I wonder if the psychological profiles of the recruiters and recruits may differ, however.

John Horgan, a terrorism researcher, also says that some terrorists become disillusioned with the idea after being recruited, but find themselves trapped.

Originally Posted by Elphenor

Wars that were supposedly fought over religion are almost exclusively fought for land and resources

Originally Posted by redbreegull

Marx was ultimately right that everything is about economics. There are structures and realities that build up around economics and then become acting forces of their own, but they cannot exist without economic substructures. Me having that coconut and you not having it is the driving force behind humanity.

It's hard to be reductivist about it. Marx predicted that class consciousness would create solidarity among the proletariat across nations, and that they'd band together to overthrow the bourgeois. Yet, in the world wars, the proletariat went to slaughter each other. For whatever reason, nationalism trumped class.

You have addenda to class analysis like "autonomy of the state." "False consciousness." You have people like Lenin and Wallerstein who try to explain this through core states and periphery states, the proletariat of developed states benefiting from the oppression of the proletariat of underdeveloped states, and though there may be merit to these theories, it seems a bit like adding epicycles.

I think it's a mix of things. The economic factor has to be there, but it's moderated by conditional variables, like political factors and identity.

Originally Posted by redbreegull

I hate this guy too tbh


I'm just 100% done with anyone who twists categorical facts to get people behind them. I used to believe it was mostly conservatives who do this, but now I understand that liberals do it too, and there is this sort of subconscious belief that it's ok because it's in the service of a moral good. No. It's not ok. You're a fucking liar if you aren't reporting the facts to the utmost objective degree that you are capable

I just saw a Michael Moore status with like a million shares or whatever that blatantly, blatantly made up a lie about the AR-15 rifle that everyone is talking about. I'm very pro-gun control. I hate violence and I hate weapons. But there is no excuse for spreading lies to get people behind you. It underlines the inherent weakness of your argument or of yourself as a leader.

Only Moore films I've ever seen are Bowling for Columbine and Sicko. I read that that opening scene in the former where he shows how easy it is to get a gun was manipulated, because it actually took several weeks, and he just cut the footage together. There is shit that's just plain untrue, like when he says that "Canada has more guns per capita than the U.S., therefore, the higher amount of shootings in the U.S. has more to do with the culture of fear." Lol, no, we don't have more guns than you guys do by any count.

Originally Posted by reprise85

I don't think an adult would pick up a Bible/Koran and decide to commit murder out of nowhere, but have them grow up with it all around them and that's a different story. Yes, perhaps those who kill out of ideology would have found some other ideology to follow, but this is the world we have, and in it religious idealism is the backbone for a lot of suffering.

I think religion has done a lot of good things but it seems unnecessary for it to keep existing. It's rapidly approaching or past the point of diminishing returns.

Some have actually suggested that converts are more prone to radicalization than those born with a religion, because they have a less nuanced understanding of the religion, and are probably seeking ideologies that provide them to easy answers, leaving them susceptible. For example, two radicalized Britons who went to Syria to fight for ISIS purchased Islam for Dummies and The Qur'an for Dummies before departing.

[Elphenor]

Specifically on Moore I like Roger and Me and think it's an absolute classic

Moore is at his best when he's calling to eat the rich

And I like his books

I am a fan of him because he makes things that entertain me similar to why I still like Maher even though I consider neither to be like Noam Chomsky or something

[reprise85]

good info DK, thanks

[MyOneAndOnly]

Originally Posted by Elphenor

Wars that were supposedly fought over religion are almost exclusively fought for land and resources

The Nazi genocide had nothing to do with land and resources. In fact it drained essential resources and manpower from the German war effort. Hitler's anti semitism had a nearly 2000 year history that is rooted in the doctrine of the Catholic Church. It was the pinnacle of over a 1000 years of European attacks and slaughters of European Jews.

I could spend the rest of the day today listing examples of religious based wars and genocides that had no logical connection to land and resources. While it's often true, it isn't always and saying it's all over land and resources is a drastic oversimplification. People are not that simple.