eating meat

[reprise85]

So...

Every once in a while I get reminded of how poorly animals that we eat are treated prior to consumption. Like, there really is no getting around that we cause animals an enormous amount of suffering, regardless of whether eating them is immoral or not.

I like meat. It tastes good. I like cheese. And eggs. And milk. I'm human, of course I do.
But I can live without them.

I have a lot of cognitive dissonance about this and I think I will at some point become a vegetarian. I cannot imagine giving up milk products but maybe that will change. But straight up meat, I dunno it's getting to the point where I really want to stop.

Thoughts? Is it moral to eat animals?

[vixnix]

I've mentioned before that I was vegan or vegetarian (it varied) for 7 years, from when I was 16-23. IMO it isnKt moral to eat meat, but part of becoming an omnivore again was accepting that we are not moral saints, and that is the nature of being human. We kill and eat other animals.

I do think that deforestation, land degradation and greenhouse gas emissions are also reasons to limit our consumption, and I also think we need better systems to minimise waste, because a lot of what we slaughter just ends up in the bin, and I do think we should be ashamed of that. NZ and Australian cow and sheep production is kinder on the animal because they can generally graze outdoors year round, but even the kindest farms still need to dock tails on sheep and neuter males, and those practices will never involve anesthesia, because it's just too expensive.

Beef and dairy are the two worst offenders in terms of morality and environmental impact. We need to give up our love affair with cows unfortunately. Goats, sheep, chickens and pigs are all better environmentally. Pigs are as bad as cows, morally though. We have kept chickens before and are just starting a new flock now - keeping chickens that eat your scraps, and produce fertilizer and eggs, is a pretty good deal I reckon, and has minimal harm involved for the hens.

[vixnix]

Chickens and sheep are pretty simple creatures. I don't feel too bad about keeping and eating them. Apparently insects might be the new protein...

[MyOneAndOnly]

pastured meat is not an environmental offender. A chicken, goat, sheep, pig, etc. that lives it's days outside eating grasses and ground cover is BETTER for the environment than commercial monoculture grain crops, which is the only real alternative for a vegetarian diet. Eating such animals which are raised near where you live is BETTER for the environment in general than eating plant crops only.

Yeah, commercial factory meat production is pretty terrible. But it's barely better ethically than the crops that a vegetarian would be mostly eating. After all, to grow all that soy, corn, wheat, etc requires that the land be virtually sterilized of all other forms of life (plant and animal, big and small). To grow millions of acres of grains in the Americas BILLIONS of buffalo and other large animals and Billions more small animals and birds were eradicated! Every drop of Soy Milk from the supermarket requires the obliteration of land animals that did or would otherwise live on the land that the soy was grown.

I don't see how a vegetarian can rationalized the destruction of the natural world and all the animals in it for HUMAN food crops, but somehow it's unethical to eat an egg from a pastured chicken. Or milk from a cow that grazed natural grasses all day.

The single worst issue facing the environment is the overpopulation of human beings of the planet.

If every single human on earth were a vegetarian it would do hardly anything to relieve the environmental destruction that's been going on for the past couple of hundred years.

There are too many god damn people and food shaming them (most of whom have almost no choices when it comes to diet) isn't going to fix it.

[MyOneAndOnly]

If we stopped using fossil fuels tomorrow, and stopped eating meat, and lived as ethically as possible, all that those efforts would do is buy the planet a few hundred more years before human beings wreck it anyway. You cannot feed billions of human beings AND sustaing the natural flora and fauna of the land and the seas.

[reprise85]

If it's ok to keep, for example, cows alive in good conditions (pasture) just for milk or slaughter, why isn't it ok to clone people and keep them in good condition until we need their organs? .... side topic

[reprise85]

Originally Posted by vixnix

Chickens and sheep are pretty simple creatures. I don't feel too bad about keeping and eating them. Apparently insects might be the new protein...

so are neonates

[reprise85]

Originally Posted by scottytheoneand

There are too many god damn people and food shaming them (most of whom have almost no choices when it comes to diet) isn't going to fix it.

I absolutely agree with this and cognitive dissonance over eating meat might be the ultimate #firstworldproblem

[reprise85]

Basically, I'm talking about the personal condoning of the way we treat animals we passively do by eating said animals. Yes this is probably trivial on the scale of humans destroying the planet but I'm talking about someone, as an adult human, eating meat that is for all purposes tortured the entirety of its life. Is eating it not at the very least passively condoning that practice?

[toase]

Originally Posted by reprise85

I like meat. It tastes good. I like cheese. And eggs. And milk.

Is that the only reason you have for an omnivorous diet?

I used to love meat too, now I can barely stand the smell of it (except bacon). I know this doesn't happen to all people, but maybe you should give it a try...

Start avoiding meat on weekends, or something like that. I went cold turkey, but I know that doesn't work for some people.

[reprise85]

I mean, yeah. I'm a fat ass so I don't really eat that stuff because I need the nutrients. Plants would be sufficient.

Why did you stop? Was it a process of it stewing over time or was it sudden? And you went completely vegan?

[vixnix]

Originally Posted by reprise85

so are neonates

Yes, that's true...Though the last time I brought that up, people got all funny about it, so watch how you approach that :P

[vixnix]

Originally Posted by reprise85

If it's ok to keep, for example, cows alive in good conditions (pasture) just for milk or slaughter, why isn't it ok to clone people and keep them in good condition until we need their organs? .... side topic

Naw....ethics 101. Cutey cutey

[vixnix]

I started eating chicken, fish, dairy, eggs and shellfish again because I started craving animal protein.

A year later I fell pregnant and started craving red meat so began eating lamb and beef. And a couple of years later I just gave up and started eating pork as well (I don't like pork. But it's in lots of processed meats on pizzas and stuff.)

[vixnix]

Originally Posted by vixnix

Naw....ethics 101. Cutey cutey

Seriously though, have you read Never Let Me Go? I think they made it into a movie.

[Elijah Moon]

I don't feel I have the right to eat other animals, but I still do it, and every so often I feel a certain amount of guilt. I was a vegetarian once but only for maybe six months, and they I caved

[reprise85]

Originally Posted by vixnix

Yes, that's true...Though the last time I brought that up, people got all funny about it, so watch how you approach that :P

Yeah I had the thought that that argument is useless with you after I posted it lol

[reprise85]

Originally Posted by vixnix

Seriously though, have you read Never Let Me Go? I think they made it into a movie.

no but it wasn't something i was seriously going to debate

[reprise85]

Originally Posted by Elijah Moon

I don't feel I have the right to eat other animals, but I still do it, and every so often I feel a certain amount of guilt. I was a vegetarian once but only for maybe six months, and they I caved

When I think OK, I can really do this if I want to, I think about sushi and go nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

[Elijah Moon]

I think I gave in to a bacon sandwich

[toase]

It was very similar to your situation. I saw that I the only reason for keeping meat in my diet was not very strong, but I didn't think I could do it.

I shared that with some vegetarians friends and they gave me the same tip I gave you. I started avoiding meat for a weekend, then it became a week, now it's been more than 8 years.

I am not 100% vegan though, I eat cheese.

[toase]

Originally Posted by reprise85

When I think OK, I can really do this if I want to, I think about sushi and go nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

I have a vegetarian friend who would eventually give in to sashimi, it was her weak point, but I think that it's still fair and moral if you are trying. Isn't it?

[redbreegull]

I have wanted to be a vegetarian since I was middle school aged although it's not likely to happen anytime soon. In 2009-2010 I gave up pork. It started with trying to accept the moral relativism of people eating dogs, but I just couldn't because like most people from countries where dogs are pets, I see dogs as very emotionally and intellectually complex animals which "evolved" parallel to human beings as companion and service animals. So I had to stop eating pork, because pigs are as smart as dogs, and if I can't bear the thought of killing a dog for food, the same applies to any animal that intelligent.

Unfortunately I fell off the horse because I really really don't like being the person with the special diet. I feel that it is very annoying to others and it feels very disrespectful to me to turn my nose up at something served to me. Going to Israel was a good opportunity to kick pork again (the kitchen at our camp was veggie so I hardly ate any meat except when I was traveling). I've cheated a few times when given food at other people's houses and stuff, but mostly I've been pork free for over a year now. Not really that hard and I think I could give up chicken too, but beef might be harder. Being a vegetarian wasn't too difficult either at the camp because there was no meat anywhere and we were all eating that way. I found that my body/digestive system definitely felt better with a lot less meat going through it, although I became voraciously hungry all the time and would gorge myself on peanut butter and hummus.

[redbreegull]

I could never give up seafood, but usually when I say that to vegetarians they tell me fish is not meat, which is inexplicable to me, but seems to be a very widespread opinion.

"I am a vegetarian! I'm just a pescatarian!"

[reprise85]

Originally Posted by toase

It was very similar to your situation. I saw that I the only reason for keeping meat in my diet was not very strong, but I didn't think I could do it.

I shared that with some vegetarians friends and they gave me the same tip I gave you. I started avoiding meat for a weekend, then it became a week, now it's been more than 8 years.

I am not 100% vegan though, I eat cheese.

Originally Posted by toase

I have a vegetarian friend who would eventually give in to sashimi, it was her weak point, but I think that it's still fair and moral if you are trying. Isn't it?

That makes sense. Good for you man. I'm thinking I could handle going pescetarian first and also not vegan (cheese <3). Honestly right now I think of the cuban sammich I ate earlier and the meat in my freezer and kinda want to throw up.

[reprise85]

Originally Posted by redbreegull

I could never give up seafood, but usually when I say that to vegetarians they tell me fish is not meat, which is inexplicable to me, but seems to be a very widespread opinion.

"I am a vegetarian! I'm just a pescatarian!"

really? I mean I'm pretty sure fish have a primitive nervous system... isn't that the whole point, not causing pain/suffering?

[bright_doom]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqcKxP0KAgc

[reprise85]

Originally Posted by bright_doom

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqcKxP0KAgc

i watched this even though it was disgusting. not the meat eating but the puking

[MyOneAndOnly]

Originally Posted by reprise85

If it's ok to keep, for example, cows alive in good conditions (pasture) just for milk or slaughter, why isn't it ok to clone people and keep them in good condition until we need their organs? .... side topic

apples and oranges. you're talking about captive domesticated animals versus human slavery. Humans and our ancestors have been meat eaters for millions of years.

although, throughout human history right up until now Slavery was wildly practiced. You can argue that it's immoral, but also that it's a "natural" aspect of human culture.

[redbreegull]

Originally Posted by reprise85

really? I mean I'm pretty sure fish have a primitive nervous system... isn't that the whole point, not causing pain/suffering?

maybe I just happen to have run into an inordinate number of pescatarians, but yeah, it's something I've heard a bunch of times.