Every time some atheist prick tries to disprove the existence of god with

[Elphenor]

Originally Posted by Trotskilicious

edit: there's plenty of evidence in favor of science and zero from faith, smartguy

Well obviously

[Elphenor]

Originally Posted by Trotskilicious

no unicorns can't possibly exist

SHOW ME BIGFOOT'S DROPPINGS OR SHUT UP

They probably don't, but you don't know that for certain

[Shallowed]

I know for certain that unicorns don't exist.

[vixnix]

Thinking of gods and unicorns, and thinking of the universe having a single and sentient creative force, are different things though, to my mind...

[vixnix]

Peer reviewed science is a painfully slow process. You can find results regarding a lot of things, but not enough things to create a set of values to live your life by, or to decide what your life is about and what it's worth. We're all flying more or less blind when to comes to those things...

[Elphenor]

You can't know for certain that Unicorns don't exist. You can't know for certain that something doesn't exist. This is not an excuse to believe in Unicorns, but it's just a fact that there can't exist evidence that proves something to not exist.

[vixnix]

We're generally only interested in claims about a sentient creator because of what it means about the universe and our place in it, though - there isn't the same sort of attachment to claims about unicorns, whether or not they exist has far less impact on our conceptions of ourselves, and life in general.

[Elphenor]

There's no evidence whatsoever to suggest that the universe has any sort of sentience or a sentient creator

[Starla]

Originally Posted by vixnix

Yeah I do take them - we attend as a family. They feel differently about it from week to week...it's work for me, now.

I forgot how old your children are. Do you think they have an understanding of what they are hearing or experiencing in church? Do you teach them biblical stories, etc?
For the past year, A. has really been asking a lot of questions about God, angels, etc. Her questions lately have been about why God lets bad things happen. Even at her age, she is questioning the existence of a God.

I was raised in a home where both of my parents had different beliefs, and they imposed a lot of confusion on me as a child. I'm careful to not do the same with A. I want to leave the door open for her to explore whatever she wants to believe. She has some Christian friends she goes to school with and has learned some things from them.

A couple of years ago, she told me she wanted to pray at sunset... and she used to go sit outside alone and do that. There was a period of a few months of this and she hasn't done it again. I think it's interesting that she decided it on her own without my instruction.

[vixnix]

Originally Posted by Elphenor

There's no evidence whatsoever to suggest that the universe has any sort of sentience or a sentient creator

What kind of evidence would you expect there to be?

[vixnix]

Originally Posted by Starla

I forgot how old your children are. Do you think they have an understanding of what they are hearing or experiencing in church? Do you teach them biblical stories, etc?
For the past year, A. has really been asking a lot of questions about God, angels, etc. Her questions lately have been about why God lets bad things happen. Even at her age, she is questioning the existence of a God.

I was raised in a home where both of my parents had different beliefs, and they imposed a lot of confusion on me as a child. I'm careful to not do the same with A. I want to leave the door open for her to explore whatever she wants to believe. She has some Christian friends she goes to school with and has learned some things from them.

A couple of years ago, she told me she wanted to pray at sunset... and she used to go sit outside alone and do that. There was a period of a few months of this and she hasn't done it again. I think it's interesting that she decided it on her own without my instruction.

That's really cool...my boys occasionally show a bit of spiritual initiative...I did, as a child, with two agnostic/atheist/lapsed Christian parents. They're 9 and nearly 6, and yeah they know what they're (theoretically) doing there because we often talk about it on the way there in response to their frequent complaining about having to be part of a stupid, boring, Christian family... Lol

[Elijah Moon]

I hate it when people say I should "respect" someone's religious beliefs. Why should I, exactly? It just seems people think it's impolite to question someone's faith, whereas challenging someone's political slant is okay.

I am not totally anti-religion, as I like many aspects of Buddhism and Taoism, and I have time for a lot of mystical branches of world religion, such as Sufism and Gnosticism. I suppose my favourite "religion" is Discordianism, though, which is a joke disguised as a religion or a religion disguised as a joke.

[vixnix]

You don't have to respect a person's beliefs... But humans have learned through painful mistakes , that it pays to be respectful when you question someone's beliefs.

Well...some humans have learned it, anyway ...

[MyOneAndOnly]

I don't agree.

I think we should respect a person's right to their beliefs. But thats different than respecting the belief itself.

Should I show respect for someone advocating slavery, subjugation of women, abuse of children, etc? All of these things have been part of relious belief from the beginning.

[vixnix]

I don't think communicating my disagreement with someobdoy's ideas or opinions, in a way that they perceive to be disrespectful, promotes open dialogue - which is what I'm most interested in... So yeah, it depends on your agenda. If you're interested in belittling or shaming someone for the beliefs they hold, by expressing to them how ridiculous and unworthy of respect you think they are - you can really be as respectful or disrespectful as you like without it affecting that goal.

I am genuinely interested in people's beliefs, and most people are far less likely to talk about what they believe if they feel attacked or scrutinized...I've learned that that hard way and I feel a fair bit of regret about the way I have addressed others in the past.

[MyOneAndOnly]

Originally Posted by vixnix

Peer reviewed science is a painfully slow process. You can find results regarding a lot of things, but not enough things to create a set of values to live your life by, or to decide what your life is about and what it's worth. We're all flying more or less blind when to comes to those things...

No. people are not "flying blind".

Morality is not dependent on religion. And certainly not on Christianity. Unless you call slavery, subjugation of women and ritual cannibalism morality. And while science isn't not a replacement for morality, the main difference between someone wedded to religious belief and someone who accepts fact based decision making is that the later acknowledges that their views should and must change if the facts dictate.

[MyOneAndOnly]

Also, western "morality" and societal norms have radically changed over the past several centuries in very large part BECAUSE of science. Everything from the abolition of slavery, implementation of women's suffrage and application of modern health and medical practices were all heavily influenced by science.

[Elphenor]

People don't use their religion as an actual source of morality they just interpret the bible to support whatever viewsof morality they already have.

[Cool As Ice Cream]

shut the fuck up, scotty, you stupid fuck.

[vixnix]

In New Zealand, the country that first gave women the vote, the campaign to get the vote was organised primarily by the Women's Christian Temperance Union.

The campaign to abolish slavery in England was headed by William Wilberforce, a well known evangelical Christian.

But yeah, without religion (and even with religion!!) we are flying blind. I think the difference is that the religious trust blindly, whereas those without religion go forward blindly using trial and error. But none of us have the answers - each of us is working on a trust basis.

I think the reason that we all manage to trust each other, generally speaking (so, the reason we're not all doomsday preppers) is that whatever method you're using to figure out your morals, there is a large degree of overlap within society. We're nearly all opposed to murder, for instance...regardless of our justification for that stance (decalogue vs. survival advantage through safety in numbers and cooperation).

[vixnix]

Originally Posted by Elphenor

People don't use their religion as an actual source of morality they just interpret the bible to support whatever viewsof morality they already have.

I think that's true of any codified morality - it can't be sufficiently specific and so always has to be interpreted to be applied - that's why the legal profession exists, in large part.

[Elijah Moon]

Originally Posted by vixnix

You don't have to respect a person's beliefs... But humans have learned through painful mistakes , that it pays to be respectful when you question someone's beliefs.

Well...some humans have learned it, anyway ...

I used to feel this way, but when you really look at what religion has done/is doing in the world, you lose patience. You can blame it on "extremists", if you like, but I feel even "moderate" religion helps create the foundation for extremist beliefs to thrive.

And if you look at the Koran, for instance, and you take it literally, there are many passages that actively encourage Jihad and things like stoning adulterers to death. The Old Testament is similarly unforgiving and so it's hard for "moderates" to speak out against extremists when all the extremists are doing is following their Holy Book to the letter.

All religious "progressives" are simply open to adaptation in terms of the current cultural landscape, etc.; it's not like the Bible ever updates itself. People choose to reinterpret "God's word" out of embarrassment at subscribing to the reactionary garbage their Gods are reported to have spouted.

[vixnix]

I don't know anything of the Qu'ran really, so I can't comment - but the reason that many studious modern day Jews are no longer stoning people is because following their religion to the letter, does not prompt stoning.

Have you read much of the OT? From what I have gathered, the extreme laws are written in Exodus and Leviticus, and seem to be instructions given to a specific group of people in that specific place and time. Later texts, like Proverbs, contain much more restrained and even-handed (many would say more reasonable) advice for the treatment of fools, liars, cheaters, etc.

Even later books, those of the prophets, decry the Jewish nation as a group of people who were given the blessing of God but lived as a hard-hearted people, not meting out justice or compassion, but being driven by ruthlessness and selfishness. The prophets called for social revolution and upheaval.

Many Jewish laws were in fact quite compassionate...like the cancelling of debts, and the returning of lands to original owners. Well...when I say 'compassionate' and 'original owners' we have to ignore the slaughter that (according to their own texts, anyway) established them as a people in that land. So there is that, lol. You can't really paint that as a respectful action, at all...

[mpp]

scotty, are you the captain janeway of netphoria? not sure if you're familiar with that particular voyager episode, but she's a hardcore scientist...

basically, do you think with enough study and analysis and time that humans will be able to figure out everything about life, existence, the universe, etc.?

i'm not so sure that's gonna happen -- for one, science was created by us and we're all so flawed

[Elijah Moon]

Originally Posted by mpp

basically, do you think with enough study and analysis and time that humans will be able to figure out everything about life, existence, the universe, etc.?

i'm not so sure that's gonna happen -- for one, science was created by us and we're all so flawed

Personally, I do come across as very anti-religion but I do agree there will never be a fabled 'Theory of Everything' in science, because science finds a different meaning, etc. with each new paradigm shift. I suppose I'm an instrumentalist in that we can only know "reality" through our grids, scientific, personal, etc. I do not insist "religious" experiences are invalid or without merit, I am simply quite disgusted at what we see being done in the name of organized religion.

[MyOneAndOnly]

Originally Posted by Elphenor

People don't use their religion as an actual source of morality they just interpret the bible to support whatever viewsof morality they already have.

often true.

but doctrine does have an impact. Hatred of Jews, for instance, is rooted in Christian doctrine. it's something that needs to be taught. It's a big part of the story of the killing of Christ. It isn't as if antisemitism exists outside of Christianity and nearly 2000 years of Jewish persecution was just because people used the Christian bible to reinforce their prejudices.




.

[bye june]

I don't think humans can ever prove or disprove the existence of a creator, God, divine being or presence. For a person to be so certain of an answer seems ridiculous to me. There's no way a human can know. I admit that I don't know and I'm ok with that.

I was raised in a Christian family, so I'm always looking over my shoulder when I do something "wrong." I would consider myself agnostic now but it's hard to just stop believing in something you believed in all your life.

[bye june]

"If there is a God, I know she's watchin' me."

[duovamp]

Originally Posted by bye june

I don't think humans can ever prove or disprove the existence of a creator, God, divine being or presence. For a person to be so certain of an answer seems ridiculous to me. There's no way a human can know. I admit that I don't know and I'm ok with that.

I was raised in a Christian family, so I'm always looking over my shoulder when I do something "wrong." I would consider myself agnostic now but it's hard to just stop believing in something you believed in all your life.

I truly don't get how certainty can be an issue here. It's a totally ridiculous, unsubstantiated and untestable claim. Not hard to position yourself firmly on the right side.

[MyOneAndOnly]

Originally Posted by bye june

I don't think humans can ever prove or disprove the existence of a creator, God, divine being or presence. For a person to be so certain of an answer seems ridiculous to me. There's no way a human can know. I admit that I don't know and I'm ok with that.

I was raised in a Christian family, so I'm always looking over my shoulder when I do something "wrong." I would consider myself agnostic now but it's hard to just stop believing in something you believed in all your life.

that's silly

you can't disprove unicorns, bigfoot, the existence of Zeus or that the Universe is ruled by Xenu. But you don't organize your life and tailor your beliefs as if all of those things are true. In fact, in practicing any one religion you discount all the others. Yet none of them can be proven empirically.