scottish independence

[MyOneAndOnly]

Originally Posted by Rairun

I'll be honestly sad if Yes doesn't win. I think all peoples should have a right to self-determination, but that probably isn't why I feel emotionally invested in the outcome. As someone who is not Scottish and does not live in Scotland (I'm an immigrant living in England), I'd love to know a place like independent Scotland could exist in this island.

the Scots do have self determination. They have MPs in Parliament just like the rest of the UK

[MyOneAndOnly]

might as well say Texas deserves a right to Self Determination

[duovamp]

Seriously I wish we could carve out large portions of Texas and just auction those parts out to the highest bidder.

Other states too.

[MyOneAndOnly]

[jczeroman]

I am for it.

My best job prospects are also in Scotland and I may be moving there next year.

[Rairun]

Originally Posted by scottytheoneand

the Scots do have self determination. They have MPs in Parliament just like the rest of the UK

Except they have a much lower population than England, so in practice they have little say over the UK's affairs. The fact is that the whole UK suffers so that the south can prosper, but Scotland at least has a shot at changing their predicament.

Also, Scottish independence isn't about "creating division" or any sort of bigoted nationalism. It's ridiculous to compare Scotland to Texas if you know anything about history. Scotland has been a country for centuries, albeit one in a disadvantageous union.

[MyOneAndOnly]

Originally Posted by Rairun

Except they have a much lower population than England, so in practice they have little say over the UK's affairs. The fact is that the whole UK suffers so that the south can prosper, but Scotland at least has a shot at changing their predicament.

Also, Scottish independence isn't about "creating division" or any sort of bigoted nationalism. It's ridiculous to compare Scotland to Texas if you know anything about history. Scotland has been a country for centuries, albeit one in a disadvantageous union.

I get what you're saying. But Scotland has been politically integrated with greater Britain for more than 300 years.

If people didn't view themselves firstly as Scots and secondly as citizens of Greater Britain, would secession be an issue?

Don't get me wrong, I get that it goes both ways. I'm fully aware how even today the English view the Scots, Welsh and Irish.

[Rairun]

If you're asking why Scotland and not, say, the north of England, that's an interesting question. The north does suffer from many of the same issues, but there are no independence movements to speak of. I think it does make a difference that historically people in Scotland have felt different from the English in terms of language and culture.

BUT the current movement for independence downplays this sort of nativist sentiment. Most Yes campaigners I come across are humanist, internationalist and cosmopolitan - as opposed to the growing right-wing, anti-EU and anti-immigration trend in England. Independence has only been gaining traction at all because Scottish people don't like the way the UK is heading. In fact, most would have initially voted for devo-max instead of independence, but Westminster refused to ******* the option in the referendum. Scottish people want to have tangible powers so that they don't have to get rid of the NHS, etc. It has very little to do nationalism as the word is normally understood.

[Kahlo]

Originally Posted by scottytheoneand

I'm heading over there in October for two weeks. It'll probably be too early for any obvious fallout should they approve the referendum.

You can't approve a referendum you moron. I think you mean Vote Yes. Also don't come to Scotland.

Originally Posted by scottytheoneand

There are small countries going it alone that do just fine. Like Iceland, which manages just fine on its own. But Iceland is also not economically and financially integrated with another large economy.

You might want to look at the history of Iceland..read up on its relationships with say Norway and Denmark.

Originally Posted by scottytheoneand

the currency issue alone is a big enough risk to vote no. If they stay on British Sterling they'll have no control over their currency, since it would still be managed by London.

It's in the interest of the Bank of England to maintain a strong pound, and Scotland is one of rUK's largest trading partners. It makes sense for us to use the pound, and while it is managed in London, it's by the Bank of England, who have a large degree of independence and autonomy from the UK Government. The pound is also used by several other countries in the way the Dollar is used by Panama etc.

Originally Posted by scottytheoneand

Politically it will hand the British parliament to the Tories for the foreseeable future, since Scottish MPs tend to be much more liberal.

This is absolute nonsense. Since WW2 the Scottish vote has made almost no difference once removed from the overalll UK vote aside from 2 occasions. The mythical 'Scottish Labour keep things balanced down South' argument is a lie. Looking at overall voting records England is moving to the right...Scotland remains a left wing socialist country.

Originally Posted by scottytheoneand

Scotland won't be able to afford their pension or healthcare systems, since it's heavily funded by revenue from the South.

Existing agreements are in place to protect those who have paid into UK pensions, and initiatives were announced in the white paper to continue safeguarding future pensions. As Omega Concern already mentioned we pay in MORE MONEY to the UK treasury than we get back.

As for me (as you can guess) I'm very involved with the Yes Movement. Here is something I wrote two years ago:

http://nationalcollective.com/2012/0...ased/#comments

[Bread Regal]

Even if Scotland were to establish their own currency, what would be the logistics in pegging it to the British pound? I ask this as someone who knows nothing about currency exchanges.

[duovamp]

Well, it's complicated. Very complicated. They've got a lot of options. Basket currencies are diversified and a little more stable, and stability is the single best thing about any currency.

I'd imagine they'd have no problem using the Euro if they ask nicely.

[Cool As Ice Cream]

Originally Posted by Kahlo

You can't approve a referendum you moron. I think you mean Vote Yes. Also don't come to Scotland.

scotlandtheoneand

[Trotskilicious]

will their immigration policies be friendly to people wishing to leave their dumb country full of missiles

[Trotskilicious]

Originally Posted by duovamp

Well, it's complicated. Very complicated. They've got a lot of options. Basket currencies are diversified and a little more stable, and stability is the single best thing about any currency.

I'd imagine they'd have no problem using the Euro if they ask nicely.

but they wouldn't have control over it as per scotty international sales expert du jour

[Kahlo]

Originally Posted by Trotskilicious

will their immigration policies be friendly to people wishing to leave their dumb country full of missiles

We are Texan friendly. You don't get much more tolerant than that. One of you even stole my Scottish aunt, and took her to Waco.

We are however a forgiving people.

[Kahlo]

This excludes Scotty though. We have some standers.

[Kahlo]

Oh and a decent film on everything that is going on:



If people want more info just ask.

[Cool As Ice Cream]

but mel gibson

[MyOneAndOnly]

the real William Wallace never wore a kilt or a even a belted plaid. He lived several centuries before they were invented.

also, almost everything else in that movie is fiction. Just like the Jesus snuff film

[Bread Regal]

Originally Posted by Kahlo

his is absolute nonsense. Since WW2 the Scottish vote has made almost no difference once removed from the overalll UK vote aside from 2 occasions. The mythical 'Scottish Labour keep things balanced down South' argument is a lie. Looking at overall voting records England is moving to the right...Scotland remains a left wing socialist country.

Can you rephrase this? I've read it like 10 times and I can't parse it as anything but a self-contradicition.

[duovamp]

He's saying the leftist north doesn't balance the right wing south, despite claims to the contrary. There have been exceptions in the past, but not many.

[Bread Regal]

Like if the English are moving right and Scottish left, wouldn't the lack of Scottish representation in parliament result in a larger percentage of Tories at Westminster, disturbing whatever balance there was?

[Bread Regal]

.

[Rairun]

You're right that it would result in a larger percentage, but not large enough to make a difference. Whenever Labour wins a majority, it turns out they could have done so even without the Scottish vote.

[MyOneAndOnly]

Originally Posted by Bread Regal

Like if the English are moving right and Scottish left, wouldn't the lack of Scottish representation in parliament result in a larger percentage of Tories at Westminster, disturbing whatever balance there was?

Check out the Map starting about 1 min in.

If the Scots leave, England could end up with a solid Tori majority for a very long time. In that sense I don't blame the Scots at all.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_world..._for_next.html

[Cool As Ice Cream]

go scotland!
today is the day.

it's none of my business, but i don't have anything against them becoming independent.

i'm just a bit worried about some of the practical and financial implications. but maybe i'm not informed correctly about these issues. (won't they end up with less money than before? will it be possible to join the EU? won't other countries, like spain, block their membership? what currency will they use?)

also, i don't share this nationalistic feeling. i don't give a fuck about belgium or flanders. so in my eyes, not becoming independent wouldn't be that horrible either. but i'm probably the worst person to judge that.

[Mo]

As long as my Islay single malts don't get a lot more expensive, I don't care either way.

Go democracy!

[Trotskilicious]

Originally Posted by Bread Regal

Like if the English are moving right and Scottish left, wouldn't the lack of Scottish representation in parliament result in a larger percentage of Tories at Westminster, disturbing whatever balance there was?

there's way more of them than there are scots

[Trotskilicious]

scotland's pop and fiscal resources pale in comparison of the english, this may sound silly but just compare the football leagues

[Cool As Ice Cream]

hey! that does sound silly.