germany, cradle of national-socialism, illegalises circumcision on children

[pavementtune]

You want a reason? The fundamental right of freedom of worship.

Funny thing is, I have the impression that 90% of the people, who are saying how awful and cruel this is, aren't circumcised anyway. So what is it? "My God, to just imagine to have a bit of my precious dick cut off - HORRIBLE!"

[vixnix]

Yeah but isn't there a part of you that wonders if those who are minimizing it just don't want to deal with what happened to them?

[Dead Frequency]

Who wants to move to Germany and start a black market circumcision clinic with me

[Luke de Spa]

Originally Posted by Eulogy

No. Whether or not foreskin is necessary or useful is entirely relevant in the context of your finger analogy. Because fingers are useful. The difference is absolutely vital to the line of comparison. Don't be all butthurt about your shitty analogy.

fairly convinced you're just being wilfully obtuse now

[Luke de Spa]

(but if you really need me to spell it out: don't think about the long-term effects on a boy of cutting off a foreskin vs. cutting off a finger. obviously a finger offers more utility so presents a higher long-term cost. instead, think about the suffering inflicted at the time of the procedure and that persists afterwards. that's what remains to be justified.)

[pavementtune]

Vixnix, no, I don't. Because "what happened to t**** isn't a traumatic experience, teenagers don't throw fits at their parents like "oh my God, you ruined my life because I was mutilated as a baby".

And Luke, what exactly do you think is the "suffering that persists afterwards"?
And since you love the body parts comparison so much, give your finger a rest and try pierced earlobes instead. See how that goes with your argumentation.

[Luke de Spa]

if someone cuts part off part of your body, it's probably going to hurt. and it's probably going to hurt for a while, until the vivisected area has healed.

pierced earlobes? what about them?

[pavementtune]

You wanted to play the finger comparison - how to justify the inflicted pain... go ahead and play your argument with piercing a baby's earlobes vs. cutting off a bit of skin.
And your description of the "suffering" is pretty much the same as it is with a cut in the finger or a scratched knee.

I get the feeling you are one of the 90% I was talking about.

[Luke de Spa]

hurting a baby for any reason other than to avoid greater suffering later on = pretty difficult to justify under any circumstance.

[Future Boy]

i thought it was shown circumcised men catch and transmit stds at a lower rate. would that be enough?

im jumping into the last page here, maybe this was covered already.

[Mayfuck]

thought provoking thread. to say the least

[vixnix]

Originally Posted by pavementtune

Vixnix, no, I don't. Because "what happened to t**** isn't a traumatic experience, teenagers don't throw fits at their parents like "oh my God, you ruined my life because I was mutilated as a baby".

Teenagers don't generally like talking about their genitals with their parents so that to me is a better explanation for them not throwing fits about it than it not being a big deal.

My guess is that most guys don't enjoy thinking that they were victimized at a time when they were helpless and that their penises were the target of an abusive act. That's a horrible thought for anyone and I can imagine denial comes fairly easy because of that.

I'm not saying this is how it goes for most guys, just that I don't think it's that much of a stretch, either.

[Kahlo]

Annoying in this thread how much "Freedom of Religion" is being thrown around as some kind of justification for moronic, retrogressive acts.

[pavementtune]

I'm the only one throwing that around.
Moronic retrogressive acts?....hm...such as babtism, "till death do us apart", Ramadan, Bar Mizwa, confession...
You do know why there are fundamental rights and know what they mean, don't you?

[pavementtune]

And vixnix, where I come from, it's normal to talk to your parents about your genitals (at least as a kid). But my point was, that I don't know a single circumcised man, who feels he was victimized or his penis was attacked. The ones who claim "mutilation" and such, seem to still have their foreskin anyway.

[Luke de Spa]

having freedom of religion is all well and good. but that doesn't make you free to do whatever you want to your children (or anyone else for that matter)

[brutechinasky]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...n_Rijn_035.jpg

[duovamp]

http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/17uq...g/original.jpg