Message to MonteLDS

[SuckSuckStyle]

http://www.thecitrusreport.com/wp-co...abyJuggler.png

[reprise85]

he looks like he's never held a baby in his life

though to be fair he could be passing her off

[MyOneAndOnly]

Originally Posted by SuckSuckStyle

lol from scratch

Every sperm is sacred!

[Starla]

But my faith is mine, man. It goes way beyond that. I didn't walk around North Dakota on my mission in the dead of winter because Mommy and Daddy told me I needed to do it - I did it because I believe what I was sharing with people.

Exactly. Your faith is yours, and you should leave other people to their own, without trying to convert them. I don't like door to door missionaries, but I'm always nice to them because I actually feel sorry for them. I know they are trying to do what they feel is right.... but you have to understand that a large majority of people do not want you guys at their door.

How would you feel if I showed up at your door, trying to persuade you and your family to believe in my faith? What if I kept coming back, and simply didn't go away? lol

[MyOneAndOnly]

In my neighborhood it's usually fundamentalist Christians going door to door. I learned not to tell them that I'm atheist, because they tend to return over and over if I do. Now I tell them that I'm Catholic and that there is only one true church and I can show them to it if they want to learn the true word of Jesus on earth. That usually shuts them up.

[Travis Meeks]

Yeah I did the same. I told a Jehovah witness that I was agnostic but I was too hung over to argue with him that day so I told him that it was OK to come back the following weekend because I really wanted to debate him.

Well come to find out back then no Saturday morning was ever good for a religious debate (i.e. hangovers) so that fucker just kept coming back and I kept hiding from him.

[SuckSuckStyle]

Originally Posted by Raskolnikov

Appreciate it, and the rep. I'm not one to shy away from conversations like this one, so I appreciate it when humanity persists.

And, yeah - I am indoctrinated. I'll admit that. But my faith is mine, man. It goes way beyond that. I didn't walk around North Dakota on my mission in the dead of winter because Mommy and Daddy told me I needed to do it - I did it because I believe what I was sharing with people. I believe that because I've spent hours on my knees coming to these conclusions.

I'm indoctrinated to a point - then I've gotten deep into books that 99% of LDS folks won't ever crack to understand what leaders of our church teach, and align that with what I believe.

Not insulted at all, man. Again - digging this thread. Love how at the core, Netphorians are great. Probably what's kept me coming back here for 13 years.

have you ever converted anyone?

[reprise85]

Originally Posted by reprise85

That article clearly says not doing it for holocaust jews is out of respect. I'd like that same respect, please, and also that for my family - both those who died in concentration camps and those who were in America. What's the difference? Well, I'm assuming it is a PR thing because holocaust survivors are a big group with a lot of support that got on the Mormons for doing this hugely disrespectful thing. It should apply to everyone else too - how do you justify this difference? Why the different standards?

...so can i get an answer for this? This is the third time I've asked.

[Raskolnikov]

[somehow my quoting of Reprise85's message directly above this one didn't get jammed in here, so... yeah, Reprise, this one's for you]

Sorry, been lagging in my duties as official non-Monte Mormon Netphorian. Will get back on top of stuff in the next few days here.

Your question is one that I really don't have an answer to, as ultimately it's church policy. From my perspective, because we feel that we're doing others a service, prior to the complaints that the holocaust relatives have voiced, to my knowledge no other group has banded together and really opposed the practice.

Cop out of an answer, I know. But, I ultimately come back to my original standpoint of if we're wrong, then it's not affecting anybody in an eternal scheme of things. If we're right - then those folks are then able to have the choice to accept the baptism on their behalf.

The process of how names are submitted to do work is something that needs to be discussed, though. The policy reiterating no baptizing holocaust survivors was read over the pulpit last Sunday (every few months, there will be a letter sent out from the President of the church that is read in every congregation's Sunday service) and I actually thought of this thread. In order for a person's temple work to be done for them, their name has to be submitted by a family member. It's not like we just grab the Philadelphia 1935 phone book and just start chugging through it. LDS folks do genealogical research on their ancestors, then submit the names of their relatives to be baptized. Obviously, sometimes crazy folks find loopholes for this (ie: whoever submitted Anne Frank's name) but for the most part, I don't think this practice is abused in that way.

[Raskolnikov]

Originally Posted by Graveflower

i guess at least this guy reads dostoyevsky instead of montes favorite books by rick santorum and "blinking with fists"

It's actually my favorite book, man. Though in the spirit of full disclosure, I do own a copy of Blinking with Fists (signed by BC, even) and find Santorum to be mindboggling.

[Eulogy]

Originally Posted by Eulogy

weren't they the bad guys in the story though? and that's why they have dark skin, according to the book?

i mean

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamanite

like

what

this is significantly more disturbing than the "baptisms"

[Raskolnikov]

Originally Posted by reprise85

I mean, this is all indoctrinated into you while you are pre-verbal and is now part of your homeostasis. It has a meta-cognitive effect on all of your mental processes and you are not in control of it and perhaps are not aware. We all have these things, and our brains like to trick us and make us think we have open minds, but it's hard to undo or even look at these thoughts realistically without bias. Perhaps impossible.

I'm sure you feel it in your heart and really believe it and I am glad for you, but you can't really underestimate family indoctrination into religion or anything else.

Don't know about any of this, really - but, yeah, I was born into it, and I'm still a part of it. I guess the differentiating factor is that a good chunk of my friends (50%?) were born into the LDS church, and have since walked away from it. It's definitely not a Sunday-only church. Because the entire thing is done by members of the faith and nobody at any local level is paid for their service, it's far from a party cruise of a church to be a part of. You've gotta be into it, or you quickly decide you want out of it.

There came that fork in the road when I was 20 - was I going to stick around and marry the gal I had been dating for a few years (who incidentally was a Netphorian, too - didn't meet on here) or was I going to become a missionary. It took a TON of soul searching to decide if I really believed this stuff, or if I was just living it to keep Mom and Dad happy. (Again, incidentally, my folks weren't pressuring me at all to go on a mission. My Dad didn't, so it's not like he can tell me that it's some sort of family legacy thing) The end result was that I searched through my soul, and decided that it was indeed more than something my folks believed in.

[reprise85]

Originally Posted by reprise85

hey Rask can you address this please?

Originally Posted by Raskolnikov

[somehow my quoting of Reprise85's message directly above this one didn't get jammed in here, so... yeah, Reprise, this one's for you]

Sorry, been lagging in my duties as official non-Monte Mormon Netphorian. Will get back on top of stuff in the next few days here.

Your question is one that I really don't have an answer to, as ultimately it's church policy. From my perspective, because we feel that we're doing others a service, prior to the complaints that the holocaust relatives have voiced, to my knowledge no other group has banded together and really opposed the practice.

Cop out of an answer, I know. But, I ultimately come back to my original standpoint of if we're wrong, then it's not affecting anybody in an eternal scheme of things. If we're right - then those folks are then able to have the choice to accept the baptism on their behalf.

The process of how names are submitted to do work is something that needs to be discussed, though. The policy reiterating no baptizing holocaust survivors was read over the pulpit last Sunday (every few months, there will be a letter sent out from the President of the church that is read in every congregation's Sunday service) and I actually thought of this thread. In order for a person's temple work to be done for them, their name has to be submitted by a family member. It's not like we just grab the Philadelphia 1935 phone book and just start chugging through it. LDS folks do genealogical research on their ancestors, then submit the names of their relatives to be baptized. Obviously, sometimes crazy folks find loopholes for this (ie: whoever submitted Anne Frank's name) but for the most part, I don't think this practice is abused in that way.

Okay. Your answer is a cop out but at least you are honest and realize that...

It is good to know the process is more selective than maybe I imagined but I don't that changes the argument against it in any significant way.

[reprise85]

Originally Posted by Raskolnikov

Don't know about any of this, really - but, yeah, I was born into it, and I'm still a part of it. I guess the differentiating factor is that a good chunk of my friends (50%?) were born into the LDS church, and have since walked away from it. It's definitely not a Sunday-only church. Because the entire thing is done by members of the faith and nobody at any local level is paid for their service, it's far from a party cruise of a church to be a part of. You've gotta be into it, or you quickly decide you want out of it.

There came that fork in the road when I was 20 - was I going to stick around and marry the gal I had been dating for a few years (who incidentally was a Netphorian, too - didn't meet on here) or was I going to become a missionary. It took a TON of soul searching to decide if I really believed this stuff, or if I was just living it to keep Mom and Dad happy. (Again, incidentally, my folks weren't pressuring me at all to go on a mission. My Dad didn't, so it's not like he can tell me that it's some sort of family legacy thing) The end result was that I searched through my soul, and decided that it was indeed more than something my folks believed in.

That's cool and all but I still think if your family of origin had been another type of Christian faith you would be that faith and believe that just as strongly. There's really not a lot of difference between all of these religions in any case. Which maybe sort of helps your point, but not in the way you intended.

[Eulogy]

mormonism is pretty different