#OccuryWashingtonDC

[Eulogy]

Originally Posted by Future Boy

midterms were his fault, so no, not really

conservadem senators and house blue dogs didn't help either

you really do kind of blind yourself to the obstacles in place, you know

it's very greenwaldian so i guess that explains it

[Future Boy]

knowing the bluedogs exist do you empower them by making it clear its up to what they want, or do you try and scare the shit out of them and drive them to the left.

which do you think got done?

also, the bluedogs werent the ones doing everything they could to court snowe and that other one I forget, where they?

I dont blind myself to the obstacles, I simply dont view them as insurmountable. Of course first one must try.

[Future Boy]

and then there's

Originally Posted by Future Boy

not solely his fault, but thats different isnt it

[Future Boy]

Have bought into the rbg frame of mind Eulogy that Obama in all his awesomeness knew exactly what would pass, here in the real world, and asked for exactly that, and got it? Otherwise I dont really see where that comment could be coming from. I dont think it unfair to want or expect people to blame someone for a job badly done.

[Eulogy]

Originally Posted by Future Boy

Have bought into the rbg frame of mind Eulogy that Obama in all his awesomeness knew exactly what would pass, here in the real world, and asked for exactly that, and got it? Otherwise I dont really see where that comment could be coming from. I dont think it unfair to want or expect people to blame someone for a job badly done.

i didn't buy into that frame of mind

but yours isn't entirely correct either.

i mean you think he could "scare the shit out of the blue dogs" who were only there because they came from districts full of disenchanted republican voters? no. they care about getting elected, which in many places doesn't have a whole lot to do with whether or not they cave to obama's will.

should there have been a more visible and concerted effort? absolutely. we agree there. would it have resulted in single payer and gay marriage and campaign finance reform and higher taxes on the top 1% and...abortions for everyone or whatever? no. a public option? possibly, but imo still doubtful.

your boyfriend is coming to my school tomorrow, btw. i might go. but he'll probably just annoy me so i'm not sure.

[Future Boy]

Originally Posted by Eulogy

i mean you think he could "scare the shit out of the blue dogs" who were only there because they came from districts full of disenchanted republican voters?

Sure, why not? Permanent dem majority, remember all that?

Originally Posted by Eulogy

they care about getting elected,

Exactly. It's called driving the conversation. The republican party was in ruins. It was so bad all those racist republicans stayed home and let a black guy win. He arm twisted people, just not them (bluedogs), ever. Lieberman actively campaigned against him and Obama put him in his place by..telling Reid to let him keep his post. Take that Joe, you old bastard!

Originally Posted by Eulogy

would it have resulted in single payer and gay marriage and campaign finance reform and higher taxes on the top 1% and...abortions for everyone or whatever? no. a public option? possibly, but imo still doubtful.

Assuming this is true, not what we're talking about. The central point is Obama was not a hostage to the bluedogs. Obama is one of those largely responsible for 2010, via the stimulus, and just horrible Republicans have ideas too messaging. So you cant just say poor Obama, handcuffed by those evil midterms.

Also, you say this as if I've been some all or nothing purist, which is not the case. If he got exactly what he got by making the dem case and fighting for more, I'd support him. But thats not what happened.

Originally Posted by Eulogy

your boyfriend is coming to my school tomorrow, btw. i might go. but he'll probably just annoy me so i'm not sure.

The funny thing is, I dont read him often at all. Havent checked his page in weeks. Yes, I occasionally read Greenwald, mock me.

[Eulogy]

Originally Posted by Future Boy

Sure, why not? Permanent dem majority, remember all that?


Exactly. It's called driving the conversation. The republican party was in ruins. It was so bad all those racist republicans stayed home and let a black guy win. He arm twisted people, just not them (bluedogs), ever. Lieberman actively campaigned against him and Obama put him in his place by..telling Reid to let him keep his post. Take that Joe, you old bastard!

so this translates into republicans turning into liberal democrats in those districts? no, it doesn't.

Assuming this is true, not what we're talking about. The central point is Obama was not a hostage to the bluedogs. Obama is one of those largely responsible for 2010, via the stimulus, and just horrible Republicans have ideas too messaging. So you cant just say poor Obama, handcuffed by those evil midterms.

Uhhh I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean. He fucked up the stimulus, so he lost the midterms... and then republicans... what?

And this is exactly what I'm talking about. You seriously underestimate political and practical restraints.

Also, you say this as if I've been some all or nothing purist, which is not the case. If he got exactly what he got by making the dem case and fighting for more, I'd support him. But thats not what happened.

I seriously think we'd be right about where we are now. But I do agree more of an effort should have been given.

The funny thing is, I dont read him often at all. Havent checked his page in weeks. Yes, I occasionally read Greenwald, mock me.

Well you post links from him pretty frequently, and you both toe the line of the ideological purist with no eye toward pragmatism. I'm not with Obama on how he handled the last three years, but I'm not fully with you guys either.

[Future Boy]

Originally Posted by Eulogy

so this translates into republicans turning into liberal democrats in those districts? no, it doesn't.

You're right, it doesn't. Of course that's not the only way to take that.

Originally Posted by Eulogy

Uhhh I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean. He fucked up the stimulus, so he lost the midterms... and then republicans... what?

Stimulus-bad
Obama-both parties bad, unitypony
=2010 partially his fault
So, saying "it's sort of hard to blame him for a lot of post-midterms stuff" is wrong when his actions led to those midterms and what came after.

I know explaining my thoughts out clearly is a problem for me sometimes, but I dont know how much clearer to explain that one out.

Originally Posted by Eulogy

And this is exactly what I'm talking about. You seriously underestimate political and practical restraints.

Maybe you overestimate it.

Originally Posted by Eulogy

Well you post links from him pretty frequently, and you both toe the line of the ideological purist with no eye toward pragmatism.

Not really.

Originally Posted by Eulogy

but I'm not fully with you guys either.

Cool.

[Eulogy]

Originally Posted by Future Boy

I know explaining my thoughts out clearly is a problem for me sometimes, but I dont know how much clearer to explain that one out.

Obama is one of those largely responsible for 2010, via the stimulus, and just horrible Republicans have ideas too messaging.

yeah i didn't follow this sentence. it's what threw me off. i think i get it now though. "Horrible 'republicans have ideas too' messaging?"

anyway. i know what you're saying, you know what i'm saying. we're not gonna go anywhere we haven't been already. we can leave it here probably.

[Future Boy]

Alright, but I'm counting this as a win.