Why is it so obvious to Christians that Jesus is the Messiah... - Page 2

mercurial · 06-10-2003, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nimrod's Son
They are to an omnipotent being.

I'm not saying that they are mutually exclusive ... just that they are two quite distinct concepts

It's been a few years since I delved into this stuff - forgive my rustyness

mercurial · 06-10-2003, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nimrod's Son
That's pretty much what I'm saying, but also to an all seeing and all knowing Lord, the difference is almost null.

You'll have to elaborate a bit.

Why does omnipotence make the two concepts the same? Or to go even further, how does this omnipotence preserve free will when a course of action is pre-destined/determined?

Nimrod's Son · 06-10-2003, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mercurial

You'll have to elaborate a bit.

Why does omnipotence make the two concepts the same? Or to go even further, how does this omnipotence preserve free will when a course of action is pre-destined/determined?

It's like this. I'll give you a Star Wars metaphor.

Say you know in the next movie that Anakin is going to the Dark Side. You've seen the results already.

That doesn't change the fact that he is going to choose that course of events.

Now, say you're George Lucas, or whoever writes those horrible screenplays. You're effecting changes in the story for sure, but you're not changing the fact that Anakin is still going to become Vader.

It's his choice, whether you know about it ahead of time or set up some other events around him.

Irrelevant · 06-10-2003, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mercurial

well ... they are not mutually exclusive concepts

Ok ... I'll try and relate this back to the original question.

If Judas was pre-destined to betray Jesus ... then it would follow that he did not act from free will. His action was already determined

If he was not pre-destined then he could well have acted out of free will. I think what Nimrod's Son is trying to say is that his action was not pre-determined, simply known.

Make of that what you will.

but since Judas is a creation of God, and God knew his entire lifespan when he created him, he didn't have free will. he was created a certain way that would cause him to make the decisions, there is no random chance in the equation.

Nimrod's Son · 06-10-2003, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Irrelevant

but since Judas is a creation of God, and God knew his entire lifespan when he created him, he didn't have free will. he was created a certain way that would cause him to make the decisions, there is no random chance in the equation.

Just because God knows someone will make a certain choice someday, that doesn't mean He shouldn't "create them."

Irrelevant · 06-10-2003, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nimrod's Son
Just because God knows someone will make a certain choice someday, that doesn't mean He shouldn't "create them."

but he knows when he creates them that they are going to be damned or saved. as the result of his creation and the path of events in their life that he already knows. they are doomed by his creation or saved by it.

mercurial · 06-10-2003, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nimrod's Son

It's like this. I'll give you a Star Wars metaphor.

Say you know in the next movie that Anakin is going to the Dark Side. You've seen the results already.

That doesn't change the fact that he is going to choose that course of events.

Now, say you're George Lucas, or whoever writes those horrible screenplays. You're effecting changes in the story for sure, but you're not changing the fact that Anakin is still going to become Vader.

It's his choice, whether you know about it ahead of time or set up some other events around him.

Lucas, as the writer of the screenplay, has pre-determined this to be Anakin's choice/outcome. Anakin cannot make the choice not to become Vader, even if he wanted to as he is a charachter in the Lucas screenplay.

In this case ... Anakin has no free will, as he is not able to freely chose his own fate. He will make choices in accordance with the path that has been pre-determined for him by the writer.

In the case of pre-destination - it is implied that one's fate is already signed, sealed, and delivered. For-knowledge is different ... it is simply knowing/for-seeing the outcome, as opposed to determining the outcome.

mercurial · 06-10-2003, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Irrelevant

but he knows when he creates them that they are going to be damned or saved. as the result of his creation and the path of events in their life that he already knows. they are doomed by his creation or saved by it.

I Love You · 06-10-2003, 08:46 PM

there is no god

bonsor · 06-10-2003, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ann Ominous

then you're gonna hate what I have to say about santa claus.

God, I love you Ms. Ominous.

mercurial · 06-10-2003, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Irrelevant

but since Judas is a creation of God, and God knew his entire lifespan when he created him, he didn't have free will. he was created a certain way that would cause him to make the decisions, there is no random chance in the equation.

I agree with you ...

I was pointing out the distinction as it seem's that Nimrod's Son views both concepts as the same thing.

Nimrod's Son · 06-10-2003, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Irrelevant

but he knows when he creates them that they are going to be damned or saved. as the result of his creation and the path of events in their life that he already knows. they are doomed by his creation or saved by it.

To save someone by not creating them would in fact eliminate free will in the first place.

BeautifulLoser · 06-10-2003, 08:51 PM

Wow, made it to page 2 without any flaming. Gotta be a Netphorian record.

I agree with everything JC said. He's much better at explaining than I am.

Nimrod's Son · 06-10-2003, 08:51 PM

Also, who said anything about "random chance"? This was foreknowledge vs determination. Random chance has nothing to do with it.

BeautifulLoser · 06-10-2003, 08:58 PM

The Star Wars reference would be right, IF God was actually picking and choosing all the little events that happen in life. But maybe God is more like the guy watching the movie, who KNOWS what's going to happen to Anakin, but he didn't make the decision to make him that way. Anakin chose to be that way (in the story), but we all knew that he was going to choose it.

I like to think of God as guiding the big huge picture, but leaving the little details to us. Granted, Judas is not a "little detail", so maybe my description isn't the best, but... that's how I imagine God vs. Free Will.

Irrelevant · 06-10-2003, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nimrod's Son
Also, who said anything about "random chance"? This was foreknowledge vs determination. Random chance has nothing to do with it.

random chance in the creation is what would make the free will of the person valid even if there is foreknowledge of their choices. the elimination of random chance when god creates a human being likewise makes their free will an illusion.

Nimrod's Son · 06-10-2003, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Irrelevant

random chance in the creation is what would make the free will of the person valid even if there is foreknowledge of their choices. the elimination of random chance when god creates a human being likewise makes their free will an illusion.

I fyou believe in random chance, then you don't believe God is all powerful, and omipotent. In which case, God isn't, well, God. So then you don't believe in God.

That's fine, but you can't have this discussion make any sense if you don't accept existence of God.

Beckham · 06-10-2003, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nimrod's Son
If you believe in random chance, then you don't believe God is all powerful, and omipotent. In which case, God isn't, well, God. So then you don't believe in God.

this is horribly mis-placed logic and assumption. You said it yourself God is all powerful, so if he chooses to let random chance occur without him changing/stopping it, are you saying he isnt god? or are you saying its not random chance in the first place?

Nimrod's Son · 06-10-2003, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Beckham

this is horribly mis-placed logic and assumption. You said it yourself God is all powerful, so if he chooses to let random chance occur without him changing/stopping it, are you saying he isnt god? or are you saying its not random chance in the first place?

Misplaced? We were talking all along that it's either determinism or free will. Either side of the argument, God knows what it going to happen.

Thus, "random chance" does not exist to God, since He knows all and sees all.

Beckham · 06-10-2003, 09:29 PM

I replied to your post before i read the whole thread, i see where this argument was going and i mis-understood your post. sorry about that. Oh well.

Irrelevant · 06-10-2003, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nimrod's Son
I fyou believe in random chance, then you don't believe God is all powerful, and omipotent. In which case, God isn't, well, God. So then you don't believe in God.

say you flip a coin 10 times. is the outcome random? or is it controlled by god? omnipotence doesn't mean you can't set rules and let things govern themselves. if you believe in no random chance that means god directly controls every particle in the universe, and thusly controls the actions of every person, and then of course there is no free will.

if god were to allow genetics to create people by random chance, he can be omnipotent and omniscient and still allow free will. if he directs their creation, however, it would be different.

sarmatianus · 06-10-2003, 10:38 PM

Assumptions about God that are not necessary to believe in God:

Omnipotence
Omniscience
All caring
Good and not Evil
Immortality
Emotions
Interest in what was created

I'm sure you can think of many more that are often accorded upon God without any real need to.

KingJeremy · 06-10-2003, 10:39 PM

It isn't obvious. It's called faith.

mpp · 06-11-2003, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by KingJeremy
It isn't obvious. It's called faith.

there we are

jczeroman · 06-11-2003, 09:59 AM

I regret missing thsi conversation. This is right up my alley.... oh well. I will take Nimrod's points on this, they seem to make perfect sense to me.

avara · 06-11-2003, 10:12 AM

god is not real nor is the devil

mpp · 06-11-2003, 10:37 AM

jc,

what i mean is: why do/did jews and christians read the scriptures differently? what are the points they disagree on? i mean, the man was born in bethlehem? line of david, etc etc

one thing that has always seemed strange for me: doesn't it say in the old scriptures that the messiah would come and abolish the law...and then jesus came and he said he had not come to abolish but to fulfill...what the fuck does that mean?

jczeroman · 06-11-2003, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mpp
jc,

what i mean is: why do/did jews and christians read the scriptures differently? what are the points they disagree on? i mean, the man was born in bethlehem? line of david, etc etc

one thing that has always seemed strange for me: doesn't it say in the old scriptures that the messiah would come and abolish the law...and then jesus came and he said he had not come to abolish but to fulfill...what the fuck does that mean?

yes, I will get to this, I hate work... (*!$&!@)_@*@!

mpp · 06-11-2003, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jczeroman

yes, I will get to this, I hate work... (*!$&!@)_@*@!

sweeeeeeeeeeeeeet

yeah me too (re: work)

06-10-2003, 08:51 PM	#43
BeautifulLoser Socialphobic Location: Middle of somewhere Posts: 13,755	Wow, made it to page 2 without any flaming. Gotta be a Netphorian record. I agree with everything JC said. He's much better at explaining than I am. __________________ __________________________________________________ Sean Casey is a stupid wigger!

06-10-2003, 09:29 PM	#50
Beckham Pledge Location: Manchester Posts: 154	whoops I replied to your post before i read the whole thread, i see where this argument was going and i mis-understood your post. sorry about that. Oh well.

06-10-2003, 08:46 PM	#39
I Love You Demi-God Location: tx Posts: 458	there is no god

06-10-2003, 08:51 PM	#44
Nimrod's Son Master of Karate and Friendship Location: in your butt Posts: 72,943	Also, who said anything about "random chance"? This was foreknowledge vs determination. Random chance has nothing to do with it.

06-10-2003, 08:58 PM	#45
BeautifulLoser Socialphobic Location: Middle of somewhere Posts: 13,755	The Star Wars reference would be right, IF God was actually picking and choosing all the little events that happen in life. But maybe God is more like the guy watching the movie, who KNOWS what's going to happen to Anakin, but he didn't make the decision to make him that way. Anakin chose to be that way (in the story), but we all knew that he was going to choose it. I like to think of God as guiding the big huge picture, but leaving the little details to us. Granted, Judas is not a "little detail", so maybe my description isn't the best, but... that's how I imagine God vs. Free Will.

06-10-2003, 10:38 PM	#52
sarmatianus Apocalyptic Poster Location: Charm City Posts: 1,033	Assumptions about God that are not necessary to believe in God: Omnipotence Omniscience All caring Good and not Evil Immortality Emotions Interest in what was created I'm sure you can think of many more that are often accorded upon God without any real need to.

06-10-2003, 10:39 PM	#53
KingJeremy Apocalyptic Poster Posts: 2,880	It isn't obvious. It's called faith.

06-11-2003, 09:59 AM	#55
jczeroman Socialphobic Location: In my house. Posts: 14,465	I regret missing thsi conversation. This is right up my alley.... oh well. I will take Nimrod's points on this, they seem to make perfect sense to me.

06-11-2003, 10:12 AM	#56
avara Amish Rake Fighter Posts: 4	god is not real nor is the devil

06-11-2003, 10:37 AM	#57
mpp Minion of Satan Posts: 7,577	jc, what i mean is: why do/did jews and christians read the scriptures differently? what are the points they disagree on? i mean, the man was born in bethlehem? line of david, etc etc one thing that has always seemed strange for me: doesn't it say in the old scriptures that the messiah would come and abolish the law...and then jesus came and he said he had not come to abolish but to fulfill...what the fuck does that mean?