The Final ZEITGEIST Debate!

sjpaterra · 02-02-2011, 01:38 PM

Ok, I listened to ZEITGEIST for the first time since 2007... i remember it sucking way more back in 2007 than it does now. BEFORE I GO ANY FURTHER, LET ME SAY THIS: it blows as a pumpkins album because its not consistently 100% awesome like their REAL work had been consistently awesome... With that being said, ZEITGEIST has, as far as im concerned (y'all can weigh in), some of the best PUMPKINS material ever... 7 Shades of Black, Tarantula, United States, Never Lost, Bleeding the Orchid... songs like Bring the Light, Thats The Way, Doomsday Clock, Come On Lets Go are what drag the album down with their mediocrity... and then those last 2 tracks, for god and cuntry and pomp and circumstance are just LAME...

Ok let ANOTHER zeitgeist debate commence...

wHATcOLOR · 02-02-2011, 02:08 PM

now exactly just what the hell kind of egomaniacal asshole are you? "im making a new thread, and god damn, this will be the last thread on this topic!!!"

what a jerk. who the hell do you think you are

Trotskilicious · 02-02-2011, 02:10 PM

yeah!!!

Cool As Ice Cream · 02-02-2011, 02:11 PM

god fucking dammit!

you forgot to call the thread "official".

slunken · 02-02-2011, 02:12 PM

i'm unclear on what's being debated

Cool As Ice Cream · 02-02-2011, 02:14 PM

doesn't matter. it's final!

BumbleBeeMouth · 02-02-2011, 02:18 PM

fuggin aint...

Astur · 02-02-2011, 02:22 PM

wow... I don't know what to SAY against such STRONG ARGUMENTS... DUDE... some song from ZEITGEIST are good others aren't...

dunno MAN... you ARE A fag though...

ilikeplanets · 02-02-2011, 07:59 PM

lol "real" work

pabrimmer · 02-02-2011, 11:14 PM

I hate to bump this

RenewRevive · 02-03-2011, 09:42 AM

don't think a 3 hour gap in posting required a bump.

i kind of agree with RockLobster. it is the only pumpkins album that i have to steel myself to listen to. for sure, it could've been a lot better, even with the basic song structures unaltered. the terrible idea of mixing the vocals so prominently, the ahh-ing and repetitious vocals (BTL and Orchid being prime offenders) to fill gaps rather than just let the music (which is generally good) breath. God and Country not being acoustic. Some songs making the cut ahead of superior material (stellar/zeitgeist/ma belle instead of Pomp/BTL etc).

Kahlo · 02-03-2011, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RockLobster

In the old days billy would drive himself insane in the studio just to get the right sounds/tones and he's just too lazy and old now.

I think that's unfair. I know from speaking to people involved with the ZG recording process that he spent an unhealthy amount of time trying to get the right tone for each track, to the point of driving people crazy. It's just a shame that the tonal qualities he wanted to achieve didn't sound that interesting to an audience of more than one.

ilikeplanets · 02-03-2011, 12:59 PM

It's hard to get people to care after a 5 year hiatus, especially if you're not a pop star and the new deviates from the old.

vbshlofbvgos · 02-03-2011, 02:51 PM

thats no excuse

Trotskilicious · 02-03-2011, 02:55 PM

actually that kind of thing happens more often than you think...

T&T · 02-03-2011, 09:21 PM

they should have released the disco version of For God and Country.

Order 66 · 02-03-2011, 09:32 PM

I can tell they set out to make zietgeist a straight up stoner rock album but along the way lost their way with some of the poppier elements. it suffers Mary Star's 'let's play it safe to reach a broader audience approach' which is sort of unforgivable because zwan was the biggest misstep of Jim and bols' career and they know it. but.. All's not lost. Like Mary star there are some gems (tarantula, death from above) but .. couldve been more

redbreegull · 02-03-2011, 09:57 PM

Tarantula, Zeitgeist, United States are all good songs

Bring the Light is also a good song, and doesn't really sound like anything else SP has done, and the solo is wicked, but the lyrics are awful

The other songs are varying shades of mediocrity to suck, but most of them have at least some redeeming elements

Not a very good album, especially compared to SP1 records, but also not as terrible as some make it out to be.

aztec litany service · 02-03-2011, 10:18 PM

it makes TFE seem like a great album by comparison [which it really isn't]
all its probs have been restated endlessly so i won't
tarantula, TTW, and US are worthy songs

stumpycat · 02-03-2011, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kahlo

I think that's unfair. I know from speaking to people involved with the ZG recording process that he spent an unhealthy amount of time trying to get the right tone for each track, to the point of driving people crazy. It's just a shame that the tonal qualities he wanted to achieve didn't sound that interesting to an audience of more than one.

That's what's always puzzled me. Based on the interviews, it sounds as though he actually put a great deal of effort into making production choices intended to enhance various elements of the sound. But you just don't really hear it. I suppose it's that old aphorism, "you can polish a turd, but...". Not that Z is actually on the level of complete turd quality, but it is somehow rather flat and completely uninspiring.

Kahlo · 02-04-2011, 06:16 AM

I get the impression that in many ways he is reacting against contemporary rock music, but his perception of what is contemporary is totally fucked up. He shows this in countless interviews.

FoolofaTook · 02-04-2011, 01:46 PM

The only song I liked on Zeitgeist is Neverlost. But I haven't listened to it in years. I'd have to download it to do so.

Kahlo · 02-04-2011, 02:19 PM

Yep, I liked Neverlost, and to a much lesser extent Pomp & Circumstance. They seemed like the logical next step from TFE

Cool As Ice Cream · 02-04-2011, 03:27 PM

i like seven shades of black.

FoolofaTook · 02-04-2011, 07:00 PM

You know, now that I think about it, one of the things that makes Zeitgeist so offensive to me is how Billy's voice sounds. In the past his awful vocals somehow complemented and even fit the music. But now it's just an awful cacophony.

CAIC's seven shades comment is what got me thinking about this. Billy's voice sounds so terribly corny and lackluster, especially when paired with that overkilled distorted guitar. It just all sounds... plastic? Does that make any sense? I don't know. It just sounds forced and retarded.

Forgotten Child · 02-04-2011, 09:45 PM

Zeitgeist is a good album, it's better than Machina and Gish.

Anyway, there's no "fucking great songs" at first listening and I think the other albums have higher highlights, but, Machina, for example, has the lowest songs in a pumpkin album.

vitaldust · 02-04-2011, 10:28 PM

united states is the only song on that record that reminds me of the pumpkins. the rest is filth.

and gossamer is the only reason that i'm grateful for zeitgeist era shows.

Luke de Spa · 02-04-2011, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Order 66

I can tell they set out to make zietgeist a straight up stoner rock album but along the way lost their way with some of the poppier elements. it suffers Mary Star's 'let's play it safe to reach a broader audience approach' which is sort of unforgivable because zwan was the biggest misstep of Jim and bols' career and they know it. but.. All's not lost. Like Mary star there are some gems (tarantula, death from above) but .. couldve been more

seriously? i much prefer mary star of the sea. zeitgeist is unlistenable

Order 66 · 02-04-2011, 11:59 PM

I'm not sure which one I like better or worse but, to me, zeitgeist and mary star are different sides of the same coin in that its Jimmy and billy attempting a 'reboot' of sorts. of course there are some huge differences (zwan was straight up pop, had others in the studio) but in the end you've got a play-it-safe rock album with indisputable gems (honestly; tarantula) mixed with mediocrity

I popped in mary star the other day and couldn't make through the latter half... Just so sappy and derived. I'd personally go with the somewhat darker zietgeist but that's me

Luke de Spa · 02-05-2011, 02:51 AM

they're both really patchy albums. and i wouldn't call either of those songs gems. "of a broken heart" is the only song on either that i enjoy without reservation... and maybe "baby let's rock!" but that's mainly because it's pretty funny tongue-in-cheek cheese and has that deliciously incongruous bridge

MSOTS's redeeming feature is that it's kind of light and not trying to be any kind of big statement. zeitgeist on the other hand sounds like someone's thinks-he's-cool-but-isn't dad trying to sound edgy and modern and failing miserably

02-02-2011, 01:38 PM	#1
sjpaterra Ownz Posts: 569	The Final ZEITGEIST Debate! Ok, I listened to ZEITGEIST for the first time since 2007... i remember it sucking way more back in 2007 than it does now. BEFORE I GO ANY FURTHER, LET ME SAY THIS: it blows as a pumpkins album because its not consistently 100% awesome like their REAL work had been consistently awesome... With that being said, ZEITGEIST has, as far as im concerned (y'all can weigh in), some of the best PUMPKINS material ever... 7 Shades of Black, Tarantula, United States, Never Lost, Bleeding the Orchid... songs like Bring the Light, Thats The Way, Doomsday Clock, Come On Lets Go are what drag the album down with their mediocrity... and then those last 2 tracks, for god and cuntry and pomp and circumstance are just LAME... Ok let ANOTHER zeitgeist debate commence...

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02-02-2011, 02:08 PM	#2
wHATcOLOR THIS IS AWESOME!!!!!!!!!! Location: \|\| MY NAME IS KIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIID ROCK!! Posts: 46,831	now exactly just what the hell kind of egomaniacal asshole are you? "im making a new thread, and god damn, this will be the last thread on this topic!!!" what a jerk. who the hell do you think you are

02-02-2011, 02:10 PM	#3
Trotskilicious Banned Location: I believe in the transcendental qualities of friendship. Posts: 39,602	yeah!!!

02-02-2011, 02:11 PM	#4
Cool As Ice Cream Just Hook it to My Veins! Location: František! How's the foot of your turtle? Posts: 31,763	god fucking dammit! you forgot to call the thread "official".

02-02-2011, 02:12 PM	#5
slunken Virgo Posts: 39,745	i'm unclear on what's being debated

02-02-2011, 02:14 PM	#6
Cool As Ice Cream Just Hook it to My Veins! Location: František! How's the foot of your turtle? Posts: 31,763	doesn't matter. it's final!

02-02-2011, 02:18 PM	#7
BumbleBeeMouth Apocalyptic Poster Location: assertive, tattooed and tough, dangerous, etc, Posts: 4,381	fuggin aint...

02-02-2011, 02:22 PM	#8
Astur Apocalyptic Poster Location: Asturias Posts: 1,104	wow... I don't know what to SAY against such STRONG ARGUMENTS... DUDE... some song from ZEITGEIST are good others aren't... dunno MAN... you ARE A fag though...

02-02-2011, 07:59 PM	#9
ilikeplanets Socialphobic Location: Ignore List Posts: 14,104	lol "real" work

02-02-2011, 11:14 PM	#10
pabrimmer Amish Rake Fighter Posts: 9	I hate to bump this

02-03-2011, 09:42 AM	#11
RenewRevive Apocalyptic Poster Location: Welcome to the real world jackass Posts: 4,973	don't think a 3 hour gap in posting required a bump. i kind of agree with RockLobster. it is the only pumpkins album that i have to steel myself to listen to. for sure, it could've been a lot better, even with the basic song structures unaltered. the terrible idea of mixing the vocals so prominently, the ahh-ing and repetitious vocals (BTL and Orchid being prime offenders) to fill gaps rather than just let the music (which is generally good) breath. God and Country not being acoustic. Some songs making the cut ahead of superior material (stellar/zeitgeist/ma belle instead of Pomp/BTL etc).

02-03-2011, 12:59 PM	#13
ilikeplanets Socialphobic Location: Ignore List Posts: 14,104	It's hard to get people to care after a 5 year hiatus, especially if you're not a pop star and the new deviates from the old.

02-03-2011, 02:51 PM	#14
vbshlofbvgos Apocalyptic Poster Posts: 1,613	thats no excuse

02-03-2011, 02:55 PM	#15
Trotskilicious Banned Location: I believe in the transcendental qualities of friendship. Posts: 39,602	actually that kind of thing happens more often than you think...

02-03-2011, 09:21 PM	#16
T&T Socialphobic Location: montreal Posts: 10,142	they should have released the disco version of For God and Country.

02-03-2011, 09:32 PM	#17
Order 66 Socialphobic Posts: 11,883	I can tell they set out to make zietgeist a straight up stoner rock album but along the way lost their way with some of the poppier elements. it suffers Mary Star's 'let's play it safe to reach a broader audience approach' which is sort of unforgivable because zwan was the biggest misstep of Jim and bols' career and they know it. but.. All's not lost. Like Mary star there are some gems (tarantula, death from above) but .. couldve been more

02-03-2011, 09:57 PM	#18
redbreegull Just Hook it to My Veins! Location: WILD BOY Posts: 32,027	Tarantula, Zeitgeist, United States are all good songs Bring the Light is also a good song, and doesn't really sound like anything else SP has done, and the solo is wicked, but the lyrics are awful The other songs are varying shades of mediocrity to suck, but most of them have at least some redeeming elements Not a very good album, especially compared to SP1 records, but also not as terrible as some make it out to be.

02-03-2011, 10:18 PM	#19
aztec litany service Apocalyptic Poster Location: cedar park, tx Posts: 1,535	it makes TFE seem like a great album by comparison [which it really isn't] all its probs have been restated endlessly so i won't tarantula, TTW, and US are worthy songs

02-04-2011, 06:16 AM	#21
Kahlo Registered User Posts: 17,562	I get the impression that in many ways he is reacting against contemporary rock music, but his perception of what is contemporary is totally fucked up. He shows this in countless interviews.

02-04-2011, 01:46 PM	#22
FoolofaTook Just Hook it to My Veins! Posts: 35,701	The only song I liked on Zeitgeist is Neverlost. But I haven't listened to it in years. I'd have to download it to do so.

02-04-2011, 02:19 PM	#23
Kahlo Registered User Posts: 17,562	Yep, I liked Neverlost, and to a much lesser extent Pomp & Circumstance. They seemed like the logical next step from TFE

02-04-2011, 03:27 PM	#24
Cool As Ice Cream Just Hook it to My Veins! Location: František! How's the foot of your turtle? Posts: 31,763	i like seven shades of black.

02-04-2011, 07:00 PM	#25
FoolofaTook Just Hook it to My Veins! Posts: 35,701	You know, now that I think about it, one of the things that makes Zeitgeist so offensive to me is how Billy's voice sounds. In the past his awful vocals somehow complemented and even fit the music. But now it's just an awful cacophony. CAIC's seven shades comment is what got me thinking about this. Billy's voice sounds so terribly corny and lackluster, especially when paired with that overkilled distorted guitar. It just all sounds... plastic? Does that make any sense? I don't know. It just sounds forced and retarded.

02-04-2011, 09:45 PM	#26
Forgotten Child Apocalyptic Poster Location: SP, Sao Paulo - Brazil Posts: 3,673	Zeitgeist is a good album, it's better than Machina and Gish. Anyway, there's no "fucking great songs" at first listening and I think the other albums have higher highlights, but, Machina, for example, has the lowest songs in a pumpkin album.

02-04-2011, 10:28 PM	#27
vitaldust Ownz Location: a melting apocalyptic jungle bleeding out of me like a dream Posts: 866	united states is the only song on that record that reminds me of the pumpkins. the rest is filth. and gossamer is the only reason that i'm grateful for zeitgeist era shows.

02-04-2011, 11:59 PM	#29
Order 66 Socialphobic Posts: 11,883	I'm not sure which one I like better or worse but, to me, zeitgeist and mary star are different sides of the same coin in that its Jimmy and billy attempting a 'reboot' of sorts. of course there are some huge differences (zwan was straight up pop, had others in the studio) but in the end you've got a play-it-safe rock album with indisputable gems (honestly; tarantula) mixed with mediocrity I popped in mary star the other day and couldn't make through the latter half... Just so sappy and derived. I'd personally go with the somewhat darker zietgeist but that's me

02-05-2011, 02:51 AM	#30
Luke de Spa someone more...punk rock? Location: Ice cream pig out in M1-aud is why i don't play plug in baby the wrong way, like you Posts: 22,217	they're both really patchy albums. and i wouldn't call either of those songs gems. "of a broken heart" is the only song on either that i enjoy without reservation... and maybe "baby let's rock!" but that's mainly because it's pretty funny tongue-in-cheek cheese and has that deliciously incongruous bridge MSOTS's redeeming feature is that it's kind of light and not trying to be any kind of big statement. zeitgeist on the other hand sounds like someone's thinks-he's-cool-but-isn't dad trying to sound edgy and modern and failing miserably