Sometimes I wonder how long I can hold out before becoming a vegan...

Originally posted by Nimrod's Son
Should we now let chickens vote? Or give driver's licenses to horses?

Sure, why not? I don't think the chickens could possibly vote any worse than humans already have. Same goes for the horses.

[mercurial]

Originally posted by Never_Nohen


Meh. I think this whole thing is probably so much less about me feeling bad about eating baby cows or whatever, and so much more about some self-serving need to feel like my value system is logical and coherent.

Coherency and logic are not intrinsic though ... it's all relative to your culture

[Never Nohen]

Originally posted by Nimrod's Son
In casse you didn't notice, animals eat other animals too!

It's called the food chain. You're at the top of it. Deal with it.

Yeah, but animals don't make conscious value-based choices! They don't have the option of not eating other animals. We do. It's relevant.

[mercurial]

Id also just like to add that beef & lamb are fantastic sources of iron, protein, and other essential nutrients.

Not to mention the fact that lamb shanks taste good!

[Nimrod's Son]

Originally posted by Never_Nohen


Yeah, but animals don't make conscious value-based choices! They don't have the option of not eating other animals. We do. It's relevant.

Precisely. Which is why you should eat their stupid fucking asses.

[Never Nohen]

Originally posted by Cassius


You already know my determinist stance sooo

Imo the system of ethics we have right now is a biological/social evolution. You dont kill other people, on the understanding they dont kill you ect. You dont need to think about this in regards to animals, so you dont have to apply your system of ethics to them.

I'm not sure you and I mean the same thing when we say "Determinism". How are you defining it?

Yeah but...I mean, that would be true if my system of ethics were based on a social contract - then I wouldn't have to apply it to anybody who wasn't part of the contract (i.e. animals). But it's not. The reason I don't kill people isn't so they won't kill me. The reason I don't kill people is because I believe they fundamentally have the right to live, and because I fundamentally have no right to deprive them of that unless it's in self-defense.

If I could kill people and not have to suffer any consequences, it would still be wrong... At least in my mind. So why is it any less wrong to kill animals, just because I'm not getting in trouble for it?

[Never Nohen]

Originally posted by Mr. Rhinoceros


Sure, why not? I don't think the chickens could possibly vote any worse than humans already have. Same goes for the horses.

Haw.

[Cassius]

Originally posted by Never_Nohen


I'm not sure you and I mean the same thing when we say "Determinism". How are you defining it?

Yeah but...I mean, that would be true if my system of ethics were based on a social contract - then I wouldn't have to apply it to anybody who wasn't part of the contract (i.e. animals). But it's not. The reason I don't kill people isn't so they won't kill me. The reason I don't kill people is because I believe they fundamentally have the right to live, and because I fundamentally have no right to deprive them of that unless it's in self-defense.

If I could kill people and not have to suffer any consequences, it would still be wrong... At least in my mind. So why is it any less wrong to kill animals, just because I'm not getting in trouble for it?

What do you base the fundamental rights on?

[Never Nohen]

Originally posted by Nimrod's Son
Should we now let chickens vote? Or give driver's licenses to horses?

You're starting to sound like one of those PETA whackos that think animals have as many, if not more, rights than people.

There are NO rights in the animal kingdom. "Rights" are a manmade convention.

Do you think for one second if an animal could eat you that it would first consider your rights? Pssshhh.

Heh. No, obviously, there are certain rights people have that it would make no sense to give to animals - simply because those rights are only relevant in the context of human interaction. But the rights to life and freedom are ones that could be sensibly applied to animals...

There are NO rights in the animal kingdom. "Rights" are a manmade convention.

Well duh. But I don't live in the animal kingdom. I live in human society. And this isn't about the animals, it's about me!

[Never Nohen]

Originally posted by Hyperbole


Don't kid yourself Jimmy. If a cow ever got the chance, he'd eat you and everyone you care about!

Those cows, man. They're just waiting for their day, I tell ya.

Have you ever heard the "Cows with Guns" song?

[Nimrod's Son]

If it tastes good, eat it.

[Cassius]

Why is there scary music on this page.... :erm

[Never Nohen]

Originally posted by mercurial


Coherency and logic are not intrinsic though ... it's all relative to your culture

I don't think that's necessarily true. I mean, I think logic is pretty consistently, well, logical, no matter where you go. I can't think of any cultures in which 2+2 isn't 4.

Although I guess there might be some...

And come to think of it, Buddhist cultures don't believe in the law of non-contradiction...so maybe you're right.

Ugh. Who put the music on here? That's so obnoxious, it's fucking with my Mp3 player. Can somebody shut it off? *grumble*

Originally posted by Never_Nohen
Bren's right. I have been studying too much philosophy. I should just "go down to the pub and have a pint". And maybe some cheese.

You want to be a vegan? You're in Ireland for god's sake!

[Never Nohen]

Originally posted by Cassius


What do you base the fundamental rights on?

Hm. I don't know. Individualism, I guess. Not that *that's* really based on anything...but we can follow this train of thought out to "It's all meaningless and arbitrary", and Evolution or the Social Contract won't be any less meaningless.

I'm mostly working from sort of a...Best Explanation of the Facts kind of thing here, I guess. That like, regardless of *why* we think people have these rights, we seem to think they have them - and the social contract doesn't seem to entirely adequately explain why we think that.

[Never Nohen]

Originally posted by Nimrod's Son
If it tastes good, eat it.

Heh. Are you sure this doesn't belong in the oral sex thread?

Damn you, you midi-embedding bastard!

[Cassius]

Originally posted by Never_Nohen


Hm. I don't know. Individualism, I guess. Not that *that's* really based on anything...but we can follow this train of thought out to "It's all meaningless and arbitrary", and Evolution or the Social Contract won't be any less meaningless.

I'm mostly working from sort of a...Best Explanation of the Facts kind of thing here, I guess. That like, regardless of *why* we think people have these rights, we seem to think they have them - and the social contract doesn't seem to entirely adequately explain why we think that.

Could be genetic, rather than just a social evolution. Humans who had a predisposition towards not beating the crap out of other humans prospered ect?

Edit lots of darwin and reciprocal altruism debates around this subject.

[Never Nohen]

Originally posted by Mr. Rhinoceros


You want to be a vegan? You're in Ireland for god's sake!

*laughs* Actually, the real reason I'd be most likely to go vegan, is that compared to the heavenly goodness that is Irish milk and cheese, American dairy products just aren't even worth eating.

[Never Nohen]

Originally posted by Cassius


Could be genetic, rather than just a social evolution. Humans who had a predisposition towards not beating the crap out of other humans prospered ect?

Edit lots of darwin and reciprocal altruism debates around this subject.

Yeah, I know, I know...

It's just, that's everyone's argument for everything, y'know? "Oh, things are THIS way because of evolution." Well sure. Great. But what makes evolution right? I mean...things COULD be different. We're human. We're capable of changing them. The question is, should we?

Why does everybody always think, "Cause that's the way it is." is such a convincing argument?

[Cassius]

Originally posted by Never_Nohen


Yeah, I know, I know...

It's just, that's everyone's argument for everything, y'know? "Oh, things are THIS way because of evolution." Well sure. Great. But what makes evolution right? I mean...things COULD be different. We're human. We're capable of changing them. The question is, should we?

Why does everybody always think, "Cause that's the way it is." is such a convincing argument?

Edit: You asked for a more substantial reason why we would feel fundamental right existed... dont hit me *ducks*

Originally posted by Never_Nohen
Why does everybody always think, "Cause that's the way it is." is such a convincing argument?

I agree with you, but we have bigger problems than meat eating..

[Random Female]

Originally posted by Hyperbole
so many people are creeped out by what food is. "eww, it's another animal's milk", "eww, it's a fungus"...I never understood that. Y'know: neat! it's a sea urchin! Let's see what it tastes like! That's my attitude.

you, me, same boat. Let's row together, baby.

p.s. what's with the sound byte??