Religious Beliefs

[sleeper]

Originally Posted by Olivier

But yet, atheism is a belief in nothing.

if anything, thats nihilism.

atheism is lack of belief in the existence of god, its not a positive belief in nothing.

[sleeper]

lot of pussy agnostics on this board

[Nimrod's Son]

sleeper
Minion of Satan
http://forums.netphoria.org/images/stars/star10.gifhttp://forums.netphoria.org/images/stars/star10.gifhttp://forums.netphoria.org/images/stars/star10.gifhttp://forums.netphoria.org/images/stars/star10.gifhttp://forums.netphoria.org/images/stars/star10.gif

[Ever]

On the poetic principles of religion:

In a certain book cataloging the works of Samuel Taylor Coleridge, which I am now reading, there is a certain section which states that "poetry is not the proper antithesis to prose, but to science" where the emotions and passions of natural phenomenon are expressed in terms appealing to those rather than rationalized and understood. You may ask "is it a mistake to do so?" To which I reply "Of course not. You cannot hope to deny yourself your own flaws, rather it is important for these flaws to be addressed and satisfied for the health of your mind" Not only that but, as will soon become apparent, god has made these flaws so and he made them so for a reason.

Older polytheistic religions of which almost all have been abandoned were built around poetic principles. The ancient Mediterranean lends us the more familiar names and peculiarities of such a system. There was a god of the harvest, Demeter/Ceres, Osiris, Tanit, a god of the sun Ra, Apollo/Phoebus, a god of the moon Artemis/Diana, Thoth and so on. Each one of these gods is a simple personification of nature or in some cases, such as Cupid, human emotions. They act in accord with that which they represent and, in doing so, the pantheon comes to represent and teach lessons through myth about all the facets of life; falling in love is always arbitrary and reckless, usually serving the necessities of some higher power. Poseidon is powerful and violent; as are the seas.

Therefore, taking religion as a product of its poetic origins, it would be foolish to claim, for example, that there is no Demeter. For this would be the equivalent of saying there is no agriculture and there is no rain and there is no plough and horse and crop. The fact that such objects exist, and the underlying natural principles behind these objects also exist, is cause enough for me to assure you that Demeter too exists. Now a scientific man will tell me "Surely you are mistaken, for the notion that there is a spirit driving these phenomenon is absurd and is explained through the results of scientific method in the laws of physics" To which I like to pose the question "But how, when they are placed in the context of agriculture, do these laws behave?" Are they predictable? controllable? maybe to a certain extent yes, but even then you can say that man has put shackles on the once proud Demeter. In any case to attempt to describe the behavior of phenomenon in human terms is to personify it and in this way deify it. Demeter is a poetic personification of the mathematics behind the natural phenomenon associated with agriculture.

On the two scientifically necessary gods.

O' Fortuna, Fortuna and the concept of luck how necessary you are! Whether or not probability can ever exist in real physics is not a matter I currently have qualification or need to speak about. Both yes and no can be assumed in this section. However there are certainly situations when any amount of calculation proves too unreliable, too tedious and too long to accomplish. To consider all things and to predict the future is a task of great difficulty in most situations and only if that is done can one say that there is no luck involved. One can say "surely if I drop a ball down to the ground here in my room it shall fall and land vertically beneath where I held it" but a draught could interfere or someone could walk in its path and, while such things are not incalculable, they are far beyond the scope of feasible calculation. So luck must be a god

Which brings us to the next necessary god. The Fates! the most supreme of all. Those events which Fortuna decides must also be in accord with Fate's design. The notion of destiny, surely a correct one. Einstein's relativity states that all that will happen and has happened has already happened, is still happened; that time is an illusion, and the reason we can't see into the future - because we can't remember it. If I have a box of tissues a metre to the left of me now and move it a metre to my right then you must say a moment ago it was to my left. So, it must still be to my left in a different state of time. That is to say if I were to reverse time it would be to my left. Otherwise if it still wasn't to my left in another state of time, if I were to reverse time the tissue box would stay in its present state to my right. So fate must exist. All people must exist for a reason and that reason is what the fates decree. "Here I stand before god and I can do no other"

On the afterlife, the dichotomy of good and evil and the emergence and necessity of the idea of monotheism or the supreme god.

To claim any knowledge of the beyond is both impossible and foolish. To hope that there is a beyond and there is salvation in the beyond is exactly that - just hope. There is no truth nor any falsehood in the matter but the permeating belief is that the virtuous man is rewarded. Whether this be true is again ambiguous but in the words of the great philosopher Socrates, it is always better to do a possible good, or your understanding of good, than to do do a certain evil. The protestant Christian belief borrows such a philosophy; promising salvation to effort and will to do good rather than the good itself. Even without reward of the afterlife there must be a force of good which you propel through virtue and which is driven back through vice which in turn augments the force of evil.

The pantheon and the polytheistic system attempted to describe humans in human nature and gave us moral ambiguity, monotheism attempts to provide absolute virtues. To do one thing is wrong and to do another is right. The force of good is god and the force of evil is the devil. An overly simplified and sophist version of Socrates ideas. The truth, rather, is that the supreme god, be he Jupter, Baal or Jesus; the poetic representation of the natural laws which govern everything, the reason why the negative electron moves towards the positive proton, does indeed have a nemesis but not one that any absolute virtue can directly influence. My limited scientific understanding says that this nemesis, the devil if you will, must be entropy. For the bleakest future I can think of is the future where the infinite variety and emotion of man does not exist. Now how can a human influence fate and the incalculable? how can man do anything but do what he thinks is best and hope and have faith that things will turn out better whatever the better may be? This is why moral ambiguity is necessary. "Here I stand before god and I can do no other"

Concluding statements

The monotheistic God or the king of the gods and his facades or retinue as the gods of the pantheon are man's poetic representations of the truth. The truth is conceptual and the truth is in ideas, what faces we give these ideas and how we describe these ideas is up to us. Scientifically or poetically. What we can do and what we must do is not for us to know in the present state. The fates have thus decided. To pray to the heavens is not foolishness but a human show of emotion, of humility that there are things which we cannot control. Perhaps it is fated that we put shackles on the fates themselves and on god himself, perhaps it is fated that the devil reign over us and we perish. Perhaps we are not in god's will at all but a step in the mathematics of the universe propelling to god knows where. But for the time being I shall say to myself and to the appropriate god, smile upon me today, for I stand here before you do your will and it is all I can do.

[Ever]

:S I don't think that was a poll option so I wrote it down

[DeviousJ]

Party thread!

[DeviousJ]

Originally Posted by Ever

:S I don't think that was a poll option so I wrote it down

It was predetermined as such, lo

[mxzombie]

Originally Posted by sleeper

lot of pussy agnostics on this board

exactly what i was thinking

[Debaser]

Originally Posted by sleeper

lot of pussy agnostics on this board

not just this board

[murgle]

I could've sworn I'd posted in here last night. That's weird.

[Kahlo]

I believe in evolution

[aurel]

Originally Posted by Olivier

But yet, atheism is a belief in nothing.

Erroneous!

[sleeper]

Originally Posted by Kahlo

I believe in evolution

you mean you accept evolution

[Kahlo]

Originally Posted by sleeper

you mean you accept evolution

you missed the point

[SlingeroGuitaro]

how many of you are krishna conscious

[Kahlo]

scientologist

[Debaser]

Originally Posted by Kahlo

you missed the point

Unless you're purposely downgrading evolution from a theory to a belief to make an erroneous point...

evolution is not a belief. (it's a scientific theory, you accept a theory or you don't.)

bloody semantics.

[HorseflyKing]

Jews for Jesus

[Rockin' Cherub]

i believe in a thing called love

[Fattening Ass]

Any and all religion can suck a fat one

[HorseflyKing]

Originally Posted by Fattening Ass

Any and all religion can suck a fat one

This is appropriate given your belief in the Church of Sucking Fat Ones.
How's the evangelizing going?

[Fattening Ass]

Originally Posted by HorseflyKing

This is appropriate given your belief in the Church of Sucking Fat Ones.
How's the evangelizing going?

Here's a story of an honest man losing religion,
Climbing the pulpit steps before an eager congregation,
The while praying came a wicked inspiration,
Brothers, sisters this is what he said:

Dearly beloved, dearly beloved, dearly beloved,
(Make no mistake, despite our traits, I've seldom seen evidence of genes)
I can't relate to you, I can't relate to you!

He was the kind of guy who'd always go right out of his way,
But more before that crazy notion leapt right into his head,
And stubbornly crept into every mad perception,
I can't deny a funny feeling when he said:

Dearly beloved, dearly beloved, dearly beloved,
I can't relate to you, I can't relate to you!

Dearest in memoriam - set phasers to stun
And grab yourself a neighbors' skeleton to lean upon,
Did you know him in life - one filled with regret,
So soon we all forget - we ever met,

Do you know my name - sing a light refrain
For a man estranged - I won't deny that I'm inclined to isolate

Dearly beloved, dearly beloved, dearly beloved,
I can't relate to you, I can't relate to you!
I can't relate to you, I can't relate to you, I can't relate to you!

[HorseflyKing]

[Kahlo]

Originally Posted by Debaser

Unless you're purposely downgrading evolution from a theory to a belief to make an erroneous point...

evolution is not a belief. (it's a scientific theory, you accept a theory or you don't.)

bloody semantics.

nope. I put them in a sentence because they are ridiculously conflicting terms.

[ChristHimself!]

I BELIEVE I CAN FLY

[Kahlo]

try it out. go on. The Blackpool tower is calling.