Fuck you Charlie Rangel (he supports the draft)

[Effloresce]

Senior Democrat renews call for military draft By Jackie Frank

An influential Democratic lawmaker on Sunday called for reinstatement of the draft as a way to boost U.S. troop levels and draw a broader section of the population into the military or public service.

U.S. Rep. Charles Rangel (news, bio, voting record), the incoming chairman of the House of Representatives' tax-writing committee, said he would introduce legislation to reinstate the draft as soon as the new, Democratic-controlled Congress convenes in January.

Asked on CBS' "Face the Nation" if he was still serious about the proposal for a universal draft he raised a couple of years ago, he said, "You bet your life. Underscore serious."

"If we're going to challenge Iran and challenge North Korea and then, as some people have asked, to send more troops to Iraq, we can't do that without a draft," he said.

Rangel, who opposed the 2003 invasion of Iraq, also said he did not think the United States would have invaded Iraq if the children of members of Congress were sent to fight. He has said the U.S. fighting force is comprised disproportionately of people from low-income families and minorities.

"I don't see how anyone can support the war and not support the draft. I think to do so is hypocritical," he said.

The New York Democrat had introduced legislation to reinstate the draft in January 2003 before the Iraq invasion. The Pentagon has said the all-volunteer army is working well and there is no need for a draft, and the idea had no traction in the Republican-led Congress.

Democrats gained control of both the House and Senate for the first time in 12 years in the November 7 election, and a wholesale change in the leadership of Congress is to be made in January. Rangel is to head the House Ways and Means Committee, which is charged with U.S. tax and trade legislation.

The draft was in place from 1948 to 1973, when the United States converted to an all-volunteer army. But almost all men living in the United States - including most male noncitizens - are required to register with the Selective Service upon reaching 18, and federal benefits, including financial aid for college studies, are contingent on registration.

Rangel said his legislation on the draft would also offer the alternative of a couple of years of public service with educational benefits.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061119/...itics_draft_dc

Wow. Rangel can take his goofy voice and sense of style and just go fuck off.

[aomb1979]

Won't happen . it's too unpopular with the general public.

[Effloresce]

I still think he's a fucking idiot.

[The Omega Concern]

Donald Rumsfield was the biggest opponent to a draft. A democrat proposing one now just about sums up the respective parties and how upside down the system is currently. They seem intent on boosting the number of registered Independent's...

[jared]

there would just be a ton of new gay people if the draft started up

[GlasgowKiss]

Originally Posted by jared

there would just be a ton of new gay people if the draft started up

Sing it sister!

[Effloresce]

Originally Posted by jared

there would just be a ton of new gay people if the draft started up

I'd move to Canada.

I wanna do it eventually anyway. I doubt I will though unless this shit happens.

[Nimrod's Son]

I really hope if there is a draft and Americans move to Canada, that Canada starts enforcing some tough immigration laws and that the US Gov't doesn't pussy out against deserters like they did in Vietnam.

If you desert, you're a coward and pussy, because you're putting someone else in harm's way instead of yourself.

[Effloresce]

Good to know you'd be on the frontline then? I don't believe in war. Period. Is it justified sometimes? Perhaps. That's why we have a military. It's not my fault that it's been stretched thin by this dumb ass administration over the past few years. And it's also not my fault that it isn't bigger because obviously there are a lot of other individuals who don't want to join up either.

I hate guns, I hate war, I will not fight in a war. I respect the sacrifice made by those who truly did/do want to fight, as I don't have the will to do that and I have no problem admitting it.

[RopeyLopey]

Originally Posted by Nimrod's Son

I really hope if there is a draft and Americans move to Canada, that Canada starts enforcing some tough immigration laws and that the US Gov't doesn't pussy out against deserters like they did in Vietnam.

If you desert, you're a coward and pussy, because you're putting someone else in harm's way instead of yourself.

I can't tell how serious was this post meant to be, but - why would Canada do that? The Americans are the best immigrants you can think of.

[Corganist]

Two words: political suicide. Rangel is an idiot if he thinks that the draft is going to make the war any more unpopular than it already is. Using people's kids as unwilling pawns to evoke anti-war sentiment won't have any effect on the war, but it would mean the end of some political careers.

I'm sure the late 60s were a groovy time for a lot of these baby boomers in charge of things now, but bringing back the issues that caused political turmoil back then isn't going to bring that era back. Why don't we just bring back Jim Crow while we're at it? Then we can have another Civil Rights movement and maybe another MLK can emerge and people can march on Washington and sing and have a grand old time. If we're gonna force ourselves to relive all the bad stuff of the 60s in order to foster a new protest culture, we might as well go all out.

On the bright side, the music would be a lot better.

[Effloresce]

It is to my understanding that Rangal is the man you want if you desire no more tax breaks for the rich and lots of aid to the lower and middle classes. So he's good for that. If they can shut his goofy ass up when it comes to a draft it won't be a problem.

If the Democratic party follows his lead, though... I'm switching to independent and likely never voting in this country ever again.

[Corganist]

Originally Posted by jared

there would just be a ton of new gay people if the draft started up

I wouldn't be so sure. The same people who are throwing this draft talk around are the same ones who want to make the military's stance on gays more progressive, are they not?

[jared]

Originally Posted by Corganist

I wouldn't be so sure. The same people who are throwing this draft talk around are the same ones who want to make the military's stance on gays more progressive, are they not?

well it was partly in jest, but i don't think reinstating the draft would be coupled with a do ask/do tell policy. i think rangel is just doing this to prove a point anyhow, this will never happen

[aomb1979]

Originally Posted by Corganist

On the bright side, the music would be a lot better.

No.

[Nimrod's Son]

Originally Posted by RopeyLopey

I can't tell how serious was this post meant to be, but - why would Canada do that? The Americans are the best immigrants you can think of.

Whether or not they are good or bad immigrants, would Canada just all of a sudden change their policies and allow tons of Americans to legally immigrate all at once? I doubt it.

Not to mention how harmful to their relations with the US such actions would be.

[Nimrod's Son]

Originally Posted by Effloresce

Good to know you'd be on the frontline then? I don't believe in war. Period. Is it justified sometimes? Perhaps. That's why we have a military. It's not my fault that it's been stretched thin by this dumb ass administration over the past few years. And it's also not my fault that it isn't bigger because obviously there are a lot of other individuals who don't want to join up either.

I hate guns, I hate war, I will not fight in a war. I respect the sacrifice made by those who truly did/do want to fight, as I don't have the will to do that and I have no problem admitting it.

Well it's nice that you're willing to accept and take advantage of the freedoms that others are willing to fight for.

And no, I won't be on the frontline, because I'm not draft eligible. Also if I were drafted when I was eligible, I wouldn't be in the infantry most likely because of my education, but yes, I would go.

Whether or not you believe in a war is irrelevant, and you already said you hate all wars, so there's no point getting nitpicky about this one. Would you have gone to war against Japan in 1941? My guess is, no. You'd let everyone else go and fight and die and when it was all over think you're entitled to the same freedoms as those returning.

[Nate the Grate]

Originally Posted by Nimrod's Son

I really hope if there is a draft and Americans move to Canada, that Canada starts enforcing some tough immigration laws and that the US Gov't doesn't pussy out against deserters like they did in Vietnam.

If you desert, you're a coward and pussy, because you're putting someone else in harm's way instead of yourself.

Yeah, and I bet you have flat feet.

[RopeyLopey]

Originally Posted by Nimrod's Son

Whether or not they are good or bad immigrants, would Canada just all of a sudden change their policies and allow tons of Americans to legally immigrate all at once? I doubt it.

Not to mention how harmful to their relations with the US such actions would be.

I really know next to nothing about this - but did something like that (tons of Americans coming over) happen during Vietnam years?

Do you remember the hysteria when Bush did win the elections, how many people were claiming they immigrate to Canada - how many of them really showed up?

you say 'Not to mention how harmful to the relations with USA...' - well, Canada would be also quite idiotic to turn these people away.

[Effloresce]

Originally Posted by Nimrod's Son

Would you have gone to war against Japan in 1941? My guess is, no. You'd let everyone else go and fight and die and when it was all over think you're entitled to the same freedoms as those returning.

Not everyone is cut out to be a soldier. It is selfish to assume that we can just draft everyone, toughen them up and turn them into killing machines. Not everyone can do that. We understand a lot more about the human psyche now and it would not be ideal to go back to drafting like that.

But in the defense of old wars, the world has most certainly changed. You don't need as many troops anymore. On the other hand I've lost a lot of trust in the reasons for going to war, period. Older wars I can actually understand in a lot of ways. But ever since the start of Vietnam you can SERIOUSLY question almost every major military action the US has taken at least to some extent.

[Corganist]

Originally Posted by jared

well it was partly in jest, but i don't think reinstating the draft would be coupled with a do ask/do tell policy. i think rangel is just doing this to prove a point anyhow, this will never happen

I was also only being about half-serious. But I do wonder how many people of either party would get on or off the gays in the military bandwagon if a bunch of people started claiming they were gay in order to dodge the draft. But who am I kidding? I'd bet that most people would probably gladly take any chance they could to keep their kids out of the military.

But I agree that this will never happen (at least not in the forseeable future), so the whole discussion is a bit moot.

[gurr8]

Canada would welcome draft-dodgers. Canada is what it is because of moderate Americans getting away from craziness. I live in an historic United Empire Loyalist community so I'm reminded of this fact often.

[Nimrod's Son]

Originally Posted by Effloresce

Not everyone is cut out to be a soldier. It is selfish to assume that we can just draft everyone, toughen them up and turn them into killing machines. Not everyone can do that. We understand a lot more about the human psyche now and it would not be ideal to go back to drafting like that.

But in the defense of old wars, the world has most certainly changed. You don't need as many troops anymore. On the other hand I've lost a lot of trust in the reasons for going to war, period. Older wars I can actually understand in a lot of ways. But ever since the start of Vietnam you can SERIOUSLY question almost every major military action the US has taken at least to some extent.

Not every soldier is a "killing machine." Did you know some soldiers are mailmen? Yes, mailmen. Some run newspapers. Some are cooks.

There are a shitload of jobs. Not everyone is infantry. You wouldn't accept being a cook?

The reason you can understand older wars is because you weren't around to see them and can only read what history presents. Wars back then were different in that there was a clear cut objective and the millitary went for it at all costs without Congress pulling them two steps back for every one step forward. War is supposed to be politically correct now... which is why we lost Vietnam and a major reason things are as they are in Iraq.

[Mariner]

Originally Posted by Nimrod's Son

You wouldn't accept being a cook?

since this is all hypothetical i'm not going to speak with absolute certitude, but there's a 99% chance i wouldn't go if i was drafted. if i'm going to do something as absolutely serious as go to war, i will only do so of my own volition and i don't want any part in going to war with anyone who hasn't volunteered to be there.

[Nimrod's Son]

Originally Posted by Mariner

since this is all hypothetical i'm not going to speak with absolute certitude, but there's a 99% chance i wouldn't. especially not if i was drafted. if i'm going to do something as absolutely serious as go to war, i will only do so of my own volition and i don't want any part in going to war with anyone who hasn't volunteered to be there.

That's fine, but I think you'd be willing to accept the consequences of your refusal then, while I doubt this guy would.

[Mariner]

Originally Posted by Nimrod's Son

That's fine, but I think you'd be willing to accept the consequences of your refusal then

exactly.

[Nate the Grate]

Originally Posted by Nimrod's Son

War is supposed to be politically correct now... which is why we lost Vietnam and a major reason things are as they are in Iraq.

Um, that's a little over-simplified, eh?

[gurr8]

"Politically correct" probably isn't the best word for it but he is correct. Iraq would not be a problem for the American military if it laid down an ass whooping like historical armies probably would have. They would be wrong to do so, but their lives would also be a lot easier.

[Nate the Grate]

I was actually referring more to Vietnam

[Nimrod's Son]

Originally Posted by Nate the Grate

Um, that's a little over-simplified, eh?

We're so overly concerned about media coverage that basically soldiers can't do their jobs. We have "kindler, gentler wars" now and don't really bring the hammer down. If Iraq was fought like the contemporary millitary is equipped to fight it, this thing would be over now, or nearing completion. Do you realize whatthe allies didin Dresden in WWII? Or Hiroshima and Nagasaki? There were in those days acceptable civillian casualties. These days, any civillian casualty is unacceptable, and that makes fighting a war nearly impossible