Israel field-testign some new weapon?

[DeviousJ]

Anyone heard anything about this?

Gaza doctors say patients suffering mystery injuries after Israeli attacks

Rory McCarthy in Gaza City
Tuesday October 17, 2006
The Guardian


Doctors in Gaza have reported previously unseen injuries from Israeli weapons that cause severe burning and deep internal wounds often resulting in amputations or death.

The injuries were first seen in July, when the Israeli military launched a series of operations in Gaza following the capture of an Israeli soldier by Palestinian militants.

Doctors said that, unlike traditional combat injuries from shells or bullets, there were no large shrapnel pieces found in the patients' bodies and there appeared to be a "dusting" on severely damaged internal organs.

"Bodies arrived severely fragmented, melted and disfigured," said Jumaa Saqa'a, a doctor at Shifa hospital, the main casualty hospital in Gaza City. "We found internal burning of organs, while externally there were minute pieces of shrapnel. When we opened many of the injured people we found dusting on the internal organs."

It is not clear whether the injuries come from a new weapon. The Israeli military declined to detail the weapons in its arsenal, but denied reports that the injuries came from a Dense Inert Metal Explosive (Dime), a new experimental weapon that causes a powerful blast but in a localised area. The Dime, while causing severe injuries to its target, is intended to limit what the defence industry calls "collateral damage."

In Gaza, Dr Saqa'a said the small pieces of shrapnel found in patients' bodies did not show up under x-ray. "We are used to seeing shrapnel penetrate the body making localised damage. Now we didn't see shrapnel, but we found the destruction," he said.

Most of the injuries were around the abdomen, nearly a metre up from the ground, he said. The doctors also found that an injured patient who had been stabilised after one or two days, might suddenly die. "The patient dies without any apparent scientific cause," he said. "So far we don't know why."

At the Kamal Odwan Hospital, in Beit Lahiya, deputy director Saied Jouda, said he had found similar injuries. "We don't know what it means - new weapons or something new added to a previous weapon," he said. "We had patients who died after stabilisation and that is very unusual."

He too found patients with severe internal injuries without signs of any large shrapnel pieces. Often there was severe burning. "There was burning, big raw areas of charred flesh," he said. "This must be related to the type of explosive material."

Photographs of some of the dead from Shifa hospital showed bodies that had been melted and blackened beyond recognition. Others showed internal bleeding without signs of shrapnel wounds. In several cases doctors amputated badly burnt limbs.

At least 250 Palestinians have died in Gaza since the latest military operations began and hundreds more have been injured. Neither of the doctors could give exact figures for the numbers of patients suffering the new injuries, although both said that most of those brought in during July showed signs of these injuries.

Dr Saqa'a of the Shifa hospital said the injuries occurred over a six-week period beginning in late June and running until early August, while Dr Jouda from Kamal Odwan hospital said he believed patients admitted even in recent days still showed signs of these unusual injuries.

The health ministry in Gaza has reported these injuries came from an "unprecedented type of projectile," and also noted severe burning and badly damaged internal organs, often around the abdomen. It called for an investigation into the cause of the wounds.

"You have complete burns that lead to amputation. You find shrapnel entering the body and leaving very, very small holes. We have never seen this before," said Khalid Radi, a spokesman at the health ministry.

Tissue samples from patients in Gaza were given to journalists from the Italian television channel RAI. In a documentary shown last week, the channel said the injuries appeared similar to the effects of the Dime. An Italian laboratory that analysed the samples reportedly said its results were "compatible with the hypothesis" that a Dime weapon was involved.

The weapon is new and in the US is still in the early stages of development. It has a carbon-fibre casing and contains fine tungsten particles rather than ordinary metal shrapnel. It causes a very powerful blast, but with a much more limited radius than other explosives.

However, the Israel Defence Force (IDF) denies the use of Dime weapons.

"The defence establishment is investing considerable effort to develop weaponry in order to minimise the risk of injury to innocent civilians. With regard to allegations of the use of Dime weaponry, the IDF denies the possession or use of such weapons," the military said in a statement.

"Due to operational reasons, the IDF cannot specify the types and use of weapons in its possession. In addition it should be emphasised that the IDF only uses weapons in accordance with the international law."

Some Israeli military experts have also dismissed the suggestion that a Dime weapon is involved. Isaac Ben-Israel, a professor at Tel Aviv University and a retired Israel air force general who was involved in weapons development, had seen some of the photographs of the dead and injured and said he believed the wounds came from ordinary explosives. "I can tell you surely that no one in Israel ever developed such a Dime weapon. It doesn't exist at all," he said.

The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC), which monitors weapons used in conflicts, said it had heard reports of similar injuries from Gaza and was collecting information on the case. "We haven't come to any sort of conclusion about what kind of weapon it was," said Bernard Barrett, an ICRC spokesman.

I heard about Israel testing some new military stuff when this recent conflict started, but that was mainly operational equipment (personal computers and maybe some night-vision system?). This sounds horrible if it's true, but it's not completely out there - Israel's been a weapons testing and development ground for a long time, and some US company has been developing those armor-piercing shrapnel bullets - the ones that tear up the target's insides and can liquidize a pot roast with one shot, so this nasty stuff is around

[redbull]

pwned

[sleeper]

i havent heard anything about this but i certainly am not exactly skeptical. i wouldnt put the use of some brutal new weaponry beyond the israelis. some of the stuff they do, how seemingly callous they are, is a bit inexplicable if you dont realize, not that theyre evil, but that they just dont care, they just dont really give a shit at all. i remember reading an article after the bombing of the UN outpost in lebanon where some former israeli general or something basically just said that israelis arent intentionally doing this stuff, but that they just dont give a shit if they do. qana stands as a prime example. that "48 hour ceasefire" they so generously instituted after the bombing lasted, what, 3 hours or something? ridiculous

[sleeper]

but can you tell me more about or link me to some of the other stuff they have been confirmed to be testing or have tested, like those armour piercing shrapnel bullets? i havent heard about that stuff either. you really keep up to date on the tools of war, dont you deviousj. a bit creepy, perhaps

[sleeper]

or, shit, lets talk about israels use of cluster bombs. this was truly, truly outlandish and unjustifiable. totally fucking barbaric and ridiculous. there are something like 1,000,000 unexploded bomblets in lebanon -- southern lebanon, that is. i find all of this to be just incomprehensible. you really have to turn off so many natural logic and reason filters in your brain to understand the reality of what happened during the war and reconcile it with the narrative put forward by the israelis. its surreal

[DeviousJ]

Originally Posted by sleeper

but can you tell me more about or link me to some of the other stuff they have been confirmed to be testing or have tested, like those armour piercing shrapnel bullets? i havent heard about that stuff either. you really keep up to date on the tools of war, dont you deviousj. a bit creepy, perhaps

Well I never know when I'm going to have to overthrow the government, you know? But those bullets are a US thing, and I was looking for more information on it and apparently the US military is kind of ignoring thme, possibly because of internal politics, but there's a guy's account of testing them in Iraq for what it's worth. Anyway, here's a video of what they do to a pot roast (this is where I heard about them, someone posting 'holy shit look at this'. How someone could aim to develop something like this is beyond me):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnDuvrCVB_A

And here's some guy yammering on about them:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bbu4sBfKVRo

[sleeper]

Originally Posted by DeviousJ

Well I never know when I'm going to have to overthrow the government, you know? But those bullets are a US thing, and I was looking for more information on it and apparently the US military is kind of ignoring thme, possibly because of internal politics, but there's a guy's account of testing them in Iraq for what it's worth. Anyway, here's a video of what they do to a pot roast (this is where I heard about them, someone posting 'holy shit look at this'. How someone could aim to develop something like this is beyond me):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnDuvrCVB_A

And here's some guy yammering on about them:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bbu4sBfKVRo

i thought it was the other way around, for when the government comes knocking and you have to resist. a populace well educated in modern weaponry is the best defence against tyranny


holy fuck the guy in the second video was a total maniac. did you see how hard a time he had coming up with appropriate euphemisms? he was trying to say that the bullet is good against armor, because it pierces it, and good against human beings, because it exploded viciously on impact (isnt this shit illegal to begin with? hollow points?) but for the latter said theyre good as "limited penetration.... (bites lip, thinks) frangible... designed for tissue." only in the USA do you find people like this

speaking of which, check out this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vsnaJ5ntsw

again, only in the US

[Kanan Road]

Israel is a police state, this is not surprising to me. You know damned well they are poisoning the wells at all those refugee camps (the same ones they flatten with bulldozers and tanks).

[Eric Blair]

isn't their biggest export military equipment or something?

[Future Boy]

Could this be it?


Israel admits phosphor bomb use in recent war
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15375119/

JERUSALEM - The Israeli army dropped phosphorous bombs on Hezbollah guerrilla targets during their war in Lebanon this summer, an Israeli Cabinet minister said Sunday, confirming Lebanese allegations for the first time.

Until now, Israel had said it only used the weapons — which cause severe chemical burns — to mark targets or territory, according to Israeli media reports.

But Cabinet Minister Yaakov Edri said Israel used the weapons before an Aug. 14 cease-fire went into effect, ending its 34-day war against Hezbollah. Edri said he was speaking on behalf of Defense Minister Amir Peretz, according to his spokeswoman, Orly Yehezkel.
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“The Israeli army holds phosphorous munitions in different forms,” Edri said. “The Israeli army made use of phosphorous shells during the war against Hezbollah in attacks against military targets in open ground.”

The Lebanese government accused Israel of dropping phosphorous bombs during the war. Edri did not specify where or against what types of targets the bombs were used.

White phosphorous is a translucent wax-like substance with a pungent smell that, once ignited, creates intense heat and smoke. The Geneva Conventions ban using white phosphorous against civilians or civilian areas.

The United States acknowledged last year that U.S. troops used white phosphorous as a weapon against insurgent strongholds during the battle of Fallujah in November 2004, but said it had never been used against civilian targets.

Israel is a signatory to the Geneva Conventions. The Israeli military said in July its use of weapons “conforms with international law” and it investigates claims of violations based on the information provided.

Overall, more than 1,200 civilians were killed on both sides during the conflict, which started with Hezbollah’s kidnapping of two Israeli soldiers in July.

U.N. accuses both sides
Both Israel and Hezbollah have been accused by the United Nations and human rights groups of violating humanitarian law during the conflict.

Israel has been accused of firing as many as 4 million cluster bombs into Lebanon during the war, especially in the last hours before the cease-fire. U.N. demining experts say up to 1 million cluster bombs failed to explode immediately and continue to threaten civilians.

On Sunday, a cluster bomb exploded in a southern Lebanese village, killing a 12-year-old boy and wounding his younger brother, security officials said. At least 21 people have been killed and more than 100 wounded by cluster bombs since the end of the war, the U.N. Mine Action Center said.

Hezbollah, meanwhile, has been criticized for failing to distinguish between Israeli civilian and military targets. Human Rights Watch also said the militant group fired cluster bombs into civilian areas of northern Israel during the fighting.

[Ol' Couch Ass]

Good for Israel. Once they develop "Brown Noise" technology the war on terror will be won.