Israel/Lebanon by numbers

[phaedrus]

From the Canadian Press, July 25:

At least 30 guerrillas were killed Wednesday, an Israeli military official said, speaking on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to release the information. Hezbollah announced no casualties; it has acknowledged 19 dead in four days of fighting around Bint Jbail.

Wednesday's deaths brought to 51 the number of Israelis killed in the campaign, including 32 members of the military, according to the military.

In Lebanon, at least 423 people have been killed - including 376 civilians reported by the Health Ministry and security officials, 20 Lebanese soldiers and 27 fighters Hezbollah has acknowledged were killed. Israel says more than 100 guerrillas have been killed.

So, Israeli has suffered a civilian casualty rate of (51-32)/51 = 37%
Lebanese civilian casualty rate = 376/423 = 89%

The Lebanese rate groups Lebanese and Hezbollah fighters in the same category. Even if we use Israel's guerrilla kills number we still have a Lebanese civilian casualty rate of a little less than (423-100)/423 = 76%

Way to go Israel. Even with far superior technology, you're proving to be more ruthless. So exactly who are the terrorists?

[GlasgowKiss]

Hezbollah, generally in civilian clothing, using civilians and civilian areas for cover.

vs.

The israeli military, operating with big fuckoff 'ISRAELI MILITARY' banners.

Looks like the fact that there are any israeli civilian casualties at all means that hezbollah are the terrorists.

Does that answer your question?

[phaedrus]

Originally Posted by GlasgowKiss

Looks like the fact that there are any israeli civilian casualties at all means that hezbollah are the terrorists.

What a stupid statement.

In no way does the fact that Hezbollah wears civilian clothes and uses civilians and civilian areas give Israel the right to kill innocent people.

I'm not saying they're all innocent, but I sincerely doubt that even a majority of hthe 300 civilians killed (conservative estimate) actively supported the Hezbollah militants.

I approve of Israel's land incursion, in which they can more accurately target militant targets, versus firing missiles at civilian infrastructure that may or may not house militants or otherwise actively support militant activity.

[zbeast78]

Originally Posted by phaedrus

What a stupid statement.

In no way does the fact that Hezbollah wears civilian clothes and uses civilians and civilian areas give Israel the right to kill innocent people.

I'm not saying they're all innocent, but I sincerely doubt that even a majority of hthe 300 civilians killed (conservative estimate) actively supported the Hezbollah militants.

I approve of Israel's land incursion, in which they can more accurately target militant targets, versus firing missiles at civilian infrastructure that may or may not house militants or otherwise actively support militant activity.

I think he was being sarcastic.

[GlasgowKiss]

Cant get around the fact that Hezbollah targets Israeli civilians. And that Israeli, perhaps not especially discriminatorily ( possible bad intel and collateral damage ) only attacks militant targets.

[GlasgowKiss]

Israel/Lebanon by numbers 07-27-2006 04:02 PM phaedrus welcome to the world of guerrilla warfare.

Oh yeah, mad props for the 'e' in Hezbollah, im not used to this 'i' shit.

[celluloid_love]

lol @ thread

[phaedrus]

Originally Posted by zbeast78

I think he was being sarcastic.

I still can't ever tell with him.

[phaedrus]

Originally Posted by GlasgowKiss

Cant get around the fact that Hezbollah targets Israeli civilians. And that Israeli, perhaps not especially discriminatorily ( possible bad intel and collateral damage ) only attacks militant targets.

Have you ever fired a Katyusha rocket? Well, okay, neither have I, but I imagine they'd be pretty hard to aim. Maybe Hezbollah/Hezbullah/Hizbullah/Hizbollah's been aiming at military targets all along, and the civilian damage has just been collateral. Maybe they've just been getting bad intel too.

In any case, I really wish the United States would supply Israel will some more accurate missiles. Maybe a couple of Airbus A310's full of them. They could route them through the UK, no problem. It would certainly reduce the number of civilian casualties.

[GlasgowKiss]

Originally Posted by phaedrus

Have you ever fired a Katyusha rocket? Well, okay, neither have I, but I imagine they'd be pretty hard to aim. Maybe Hezbollah/Hezbullah/Hizbullah/Hizbollah's been aiming at military targets all along, and the civilian damage has just been collateral. Maybe they've just been getting bad intel too.

In any case, I really wish the United States would supply Israel will some more accurate missiles. Maybe a couple of Airbus A310's full of them. They could route them through the UK, no problem. It would certainly reduce the number of civilian casualties.

If they have been aiming their missiles at military targets then ill agree with you.

[phaedrus]

Originally Posted by GlasgowKiss

If they have been aiming their missiles at military targets then ill agree with you.

Regardless, I'm still astounded that Hezbollah has had such a smaller percentage of civilian kills. I guess those Katyusha's don't pack much punch. Maybe if they were given $2B annually by a major superpower, they'd do a little better...

[Andrew_Pakula]

Katyusha rockets, doesn't look that high tech.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/3...yusha300ap.jpg

[RopeyLopey]

Public poll on the biggest news CZE server:
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a3...usan/izpal.jpg

the question is: with whom do you symphatize more in the current middle east conflict?

[PkPhuoko]

Originally Posted by Andrew_Pakula

Katyusha rockets, doesn't look that high tech.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/3...yusha300ap.jpg

they arent.... its like lighting a roman candle... you can probably light one and aim it at your friend and scare the shit out of them but odds are if they stay still you wont hit him with a single one

[InfinityNow]

I... I did a little powerpoint and a lot of research into this, and it's here:

http://rapidshare.de/files/26782340/...ctMAP.mov.html

In a rough (read, not final) cut for those of you who are seriously interested.

It breaks down further:

Total terror - as of July 19th, 2006:

Israeli missiles fired - 7,000 - 9,000
Palestinian Terrorist missiles fired (Hamas/Hezbollah) - 1,000

(it is important as always to note, Palestinians are the non-combative native civilians, and the distinction MUST be made from them and terrorist organizations that hide in their shadows, Hamas and Hezbollah)

Israel - killed 80 Palestinians in 6 months
Hamas/Hezbollah - killed 8 Israeli's in 5 years

Israel - have 9,000 hostages
Hamas/Hezbollah - have 3

...This war between Hezbollah and Israel is disproportionate, to say the least. I must mention the fact Hezbollah were created when Israel invaded Lebanon, hence the fault line goes straight to the heart of the Israeli government/military.

...and:

Israel began a firefight in Gaza on June 26th to exterminate the native Palistinian people so that they can control the dominion of their corner of the Middle Eastern kingdom.

U.S. / Israel Terror Is Real - http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?c...articleId=2730

This report - which will never be seen on major TV/Radio/Print news detailes an account of the current violence perpetrated by U.S. supported terrorist nation of Israel:

In a telephone interview, Al Saqqa told Gulf News that operation Summer Rain was not just the code name of a military operation launched by Israel against Gaza since June 26.

"It is a live exercise on a new ammunition that, so far, has resulted in killing 50 Palestinians and injuring 200," he said...

"I also noticed that despite the damage in internal soft tissue in the bodies of injured people, the fragments were not detected by X-ray. In other words, they had disappeared or dissolved inside the body."

U.S. and Israel are allies in their terror war. They're still fighting the Crusades. This time with magic chemical weapons.

To put it clearly, I feel tremendously sorry for the Palestinians... because they're the underdogs, quite clearly being bullied around and trying - though anarchically - to defend themselves against the evil empire.

edit: You would totally have to go through the powerpint to find out why the U.S. and Israel are allies here... The United States is the sole reason the international community is forced to sit back and watch as the fighting in Palestine goes on - because they are the only member of the UN to veto acts for cease-fire every time they come up.

[InfinityNow]

I just refreshed this page and saw my reputation had gone from green to red in one post flat.

No comments, no thoughts, no constructive criticism, denials, aggression...

but...

I sense a whole lot of passive aggresion. Like - a mountain of it.

WTF?

These are only opinions folks, sprinkled with facts, true - but where do you see some sort of threat, or malice?

Looking at the above post - it's objective, to the point with little differentiation coming from my own personal opinion - it's based on fact, actual reports, mostly copied and pasted - so it's validity can't be contested...

Again, what on earth is going on here? This isn't the first board I've shared this bunch of stuff with - on others at least, the conversation doesn't end suddenly when I step up to the plate to bat - but obviously I have met a lot of sterotypical jingoism/nationalistic fanaticism which alters and leads the opinions of a spotted few who quite innocently enough repeat the one-sided rhetoric of their preference.

... jeepers creepers man - you guys (the ones who gave such a negative response) are just weird... that's polite... cowards... maybe. I may be rude... but who isn't?

(edit) - Yeah, my reply may seem overly self-conscious, simply put - this whole conflict in Palestine really affects me and frustrates the hell out of my very anti-war sentiment, so if anyone's offended - which I hadn't thought of before, well, sorry, I guess.. you learn something, you know?

(2nd edit) - crap, I used "is" wrong...

[InfinityNow]

I'm still kinda concerned about the lack of any additional content here, so...

http://www.gulfnews.com/region/Lebanon/10056656.html

"There is no way that the last of Hezbollah's missiles will be destroyed. There is no such option, not by ground forces and not from the air," Housing Minister Meir Sheetrit told Israel Radio.

so...

“The goal is not to occupy Lebanon,” he said, adding that the goal was only to hold onto the territory until a multinational force reaches the Israel-Lebanon border.

Maybe, the goal isn't for Israel to occupy Lebanon, but they sure as hell have to make sure that Lebanon is occupied in order to get rid of Hezbollah, so they have to set up an international task force to do it (the occupying) for them. All the while, somehow it seems proper to kill Lebanese civilians.

WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT CAUSED THIS WHOLE CONFLICT WITH HEZBOLLAH TO BEGIN WITH! A little doublespeak/bullshit and an armed occupying force.

G*D DAMN IT! Israel went into Lebanon and birthed Hezbollah, really that's all there is to it.

[Effloresce]

I'm sure they used some people for human shields or as a means of a diversion, but I highly doubt that every single innocent person Israel has killed was being used that way.

This is their latest PR. First it was "we want our two sons back, that's why we're tearing apart a country and killing innocents," now it's "oh, well, you see, every single one we accidently killed was used as a human shield."

This needs to stop, and this needs to stop now. Israel could bomb Hezbollah for over a year if they wanted to. This little conflict is going to turn into a war. Certainly they are the lesser of two evils; they have a right to defend themselves, but they don't have a right to be so arrogant about making errors and using bullshit excuses to try and justify the death of innocent human beings. The blood of many of those innocents are sadly on Israel's hands. I was hoping they would deal with this better.

[InfinityNow]

Originally Posted by Effloresce

I'm sure they used some people for human shields or as a means of a diversion, but I highly doubt that every single innocent person Israel has killed was being used that way.

This is their latest PR. First it was "we want our two sons back, that's why we're tearing apart a country and killing innocents," now it's "oh, well, you see, every single one we accidently killed was used as a human shield."

Israel is certainly the lesser of two evils, but this is just getting ridiculous.

More and more so, until Israel is seen as the greater of TWO EVILS. That's what all those funny little numbers in my (far) above post were leading to. Israel has a for larger bag of terrorism and terrorist tricks than even the terrorists have.

Hav the terrorists disabled Israels power? Or their water? Have they stolen Israeli land? Have they destroyed Israeli government buildings? Airports? Have the terrorists spilled oil into Israeli waters?

Seriously, forget the rhetoric - just try and rationally conceive of who is doing all or most of the terrorism.

...there are two evils in that region though, definitely - Israel isn't waging a war against a flower pasture.

[*theory*]

do you any of you realize that recently Mort Zuckerman lead a 14 million dollar gift to Lebanon for indoor agriculture that at first employed some 4000 Lebonese.

But the buildings were vandalized and the business has just about been wiped out, down to 1400 employees.

They were vandalized because the Lebanese army is not as powerful as the disruptive Hezbollah and have shown no ability to control them. THEREFORE, legally speaking, they cannot claim that land as theirs for THEY HAVE NO CONTROL OF THEIR STATE. Ergo, IT"S NOT A STATE, just land up for grabs essentially and the irony here is that Hezbollah's thanks to Isreal for the Gaza strip was kidnapping Isreali soldiers.

From my point of view, they absolutely have the right to kill whoever they need to to protect their land and the world view against this is the world showing it's Nazi-like hatred for the Jews.


Mainly however, as evidenced by the Zuckerman effort, Muslim extremist have no interest in peace and would rather start wars than grasp an idea of the 21st century commerce.

but that's what happen with a religion stuck in the 700's. Bush has is right essentially, a new Crusade needs to happen or else all the pretty American girls will either be dead or wearing a burka.

[DeviousJ]

Originally Posted by *theory*

do you any of you realize that recently Mort Zuckerman lead a 14 million dollar gift to Lebanon for indoor agriculture that at first employed some 4000 Lebonese.

But the buildings were vandalized and the business has just about been wiped out, down to 1400 employees.

They were vandalized because the Lebanese army is not as powerful as the disruptive Hezbollah and have shown no ability to control them. THEREFORE, legally speaking, they cannot claim that land as theirs for THEY HAVE NO CONTROL OF THEIR STATE. Ergo, IT"S NOT A STATE, just land up for grabs essentially and the irony here is that Hezbollah's thanks to Isreal for the Gaza strip was kidnapping Isreali soldiers.

From my point of view, they absolutely have the right to kill whoever they need to to protect their land and the world view against this is the world showing it's Nazi-like hatred for the Jews.


Mainly however, as evidenced by the Zuckerman effort, Muslim extremist have no interest in peace and would rather start wars than grasp an idea of the 21st century commerce.

but that's what happen with a religion stuck in the 700's. Bush has is right essentially, a new Crusade needs to happen or else all the pretty American girls will either be dead or wearing a burka.

Got a link for this vandalism story? Oh wait you called everyone Nazis

[phaedrus]

Originally Posted by *theory*

but that's what happen with a religion stuck in the 700's. Bush has is right essentially, a new Crusade needs to happen or else all the pretty American girls will either be dead or wearing a burka.

lol