Middle East Crisis: Who Backs an Immediate Cease Fire?

[ravenguy2000]

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/im...july06/yes.jpg

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/im.../july06/no.jpg

[DeviousJ]

Someone draw a little heart in there.

What's stupid about that comment is that they're expecting Hizbollah to stop fighting and resolve the conflict that way - or "what people are really saying is they want a ceasefire with a shitload of rockets still going into Lebanon." Plus Israel said their operations have been incredibly effective at disrupting Hizbollah, how can they continue to fire rockets?!

[Corganist]

Well, I'm convinced. The USA and Britain should both change their stance and stand on the side of such peaceloving UN brethren as Iran, Syria, (who are both shocked, shocked! at all the Hezbollah violence going right now I'm sure) and North Korea.

[FearFactory]

Originally Posted by Corganist

Well, I'm convinced. The USA and Britain should both change their stance and stand on the side of such peaceloving UN brethren as Iran, Syria, (who are both shocked, shocked! at all the Hezbollah violence going right now I'm sure) and North Korea.

why the hell do you care, anyway? the US is an aggressor state.

[Corganist]

Originally Posted by FearFactory

why the hell do you care, anyway? the US is an aggressor state.

Obviously its because I want the US to not be an aggressor state. What better way to do that than to do as Iran and North Korea do?

[FearFactory]

Originally Posted by Corganist

Obviously its because I want the US to not be an aggressor state. What better way to do that than to do as Iran and North Korea do?

the US won't stop being an aggressor state just because it votes against what both Iran and North Korea do.

has it ever struck you as odd that during all the UN votes about an issue relating to Israel, it's usually everybody else on one side and the US and Israel on the other? why is that?

[superblaster76]

??????????????????????????????????????????

[FearFactory]

oh wow, the UN is a worthless organization. no shit? dude, what's your source on this? this is amazing news. absolutely amazing.

[Trotskilicious]

The Israeli government is a pack of jerkwads. It's sad that the Zionist lobby in the US has their head up their ass about this whole thing. I saw an ad in the NYT that said that this attack by Hezbolla was "entirely unprovoked." I guess all those police actions involving tanks against Palestinians don't provoke Muslim fundamentalists.

Every time I think about the pro-Israel jews, I always think of Suze breaking down and throwing an absolute wobbly when anyone even questions the foreign and domestic policy of Israel.

[Trotskilicious]

Originally Posted by FearFactory

oh wow, the UN is a worthless organization. no shit? dude, what's your source on this? this is amazing news. absolutely amazing.

"What is the UN gonna do about it Hans Brix?"
"We will be very angry with you, and we will write a letter to you telling you how angry we are."

[DeviousJ]

Originally Posted by superblaster76

Yes, because the UN resolutions stopped North Korea, Iran, Iraq, Hezbollah, Hamas, Al-Qaeda and others. I've been coming to this site for quite a while but am just so sick of people posting this garbage. The UN is a worthless organization.

I think it is funny that you are calling for a ceasefire, as if all the problems will just go away. NEWS FLASH! There was a ceasefire since 2000 that resulted in Hezzbollah and others firing rockets into Israel on an almost daily basis. What did the UN do? They passed more resolutions. The FACT is that Israel could throw all of their weapons into the ocean tomorrow and we would have the next Holocaust.

I am wondering if you posted such postings over the past few years when the rockets were flying into Israel killing people left and right. I wonder if you posted things about how horrible Hezzbollah and Hamas were blowing up busses filled with children? Or the countless people who have been kidnapped and beheaded (go ahead do a YouTube search to watch that). Israel has every right to do this. They won't stand back and watch organizations slaughter their people while the rest of the world watches again or while Lebanon allows Hezbollah to launch attacks on Israel. They learned after WWII that like then the US and UK will help the Jewish people while the rest of the world prays for their destruction. You people either don't know your history or side with the terrorists.

Yep, Israel has every right to send wave after wave of airstrikes into cities, destroy neighborhoods and rack up the civilian casualties at an alarming rate. Israel has every right to attack a country with such intensity that nations begin evacuating their citizens (I don't remember people being evacuated from Israel). Israel has every right to (quote) "turn back the clock in Lebanon by 20 years", which if you need it spelling out means doing so much damage to civilian and economic infrastructure that it will take them 20 years to even get back to where they are today, not exactly the same thing as 'stopping Hizbollah'. This is a country that has been under occupation by Syria for decades, and has only just regained its independence, and before they can even get on their feet this happens.

But hey, you're justifying Israel's actions by comparing them to the atrocities committed by terrorist groups, and that's about the only point I agree with you on - they are pretty much equivalent. Except of course, Israel wants to everyone to believe that when it bombs and fires rockets into towns and kills hundreds of innocent civilians, it's somehow different to terrorist groups who do the same thing.

Nice 'everyone hates the jews/siding with the terrorists' angle though. By all means continue to support their pounding of towns and cities and innocent civilians with their incredibly powerful military. Here's a newsflash for you though: IT WON'T WORK. If you think an extremist militia is going to give up because the enemy tries to destroy their country then you must be insane. The way to disarm a resistance force is through diminishing national support for their cause (clue: Israel bombing people ain't helping) and through the government. All this is doing is making people more determined to fight Israel. And of course the real victims end up being innocent civilians who have nothing to do with the fighting. But we can only worry about the jewish ones right? The holocaust means they're more important

[Corganist]

Originally Posted by FearFactory

the US won't stop being an aggressor state just because it votes against what both Iran and North Korea do.

I agree. And by the same token, merely siding with Israel doesn't make the US an aggressor state.

has it ever struck you as odd that during all the UN votes about an issue relating to Israel, it's usually everybody else on one side and the US and Israel on the other? why is that?

It does strike me as odd. But it strikes me as even odder that people don't seem to look at the situation objectively, and instead seem to appeal to things like pretty pictures of flags to somehow make their point. Just because a majority of countries made up in no small part of tiny island countries and tinhorn dictatorships favor a certain course of action doesn't mean that the people on the other side are wrong. Maybe a cease fire is the right way to go, and maybe its not...but that question can't and shouldn't be answered by saying "we've got more flags on our side of the picture than you do." Especially when some of those countries who are supposedly carrying the torch for peace are actually the ones instigating the whole affair.

[talk show host]

Originally Posted by Corganist

Especially when some of those countries who are supposedly carrying the torch for peace are actually the ones instigating the whole affair.

Yeah this is true, at least America isn't making any attempt to hide being an aggressor state stirring up shit.

[Corganist]

Originally Posted by DeviousJ

Yep, Israel has every right to send wave after wave of airstrikes into cities, destroy neighborhoods and rack up the civilian casualties at an alarming rate. Israel has every right to attack a country with such intensity that nations begin evacuating their citizens (I don't remember people being evacuated from Israel). Israel has every right to (quote) "turn back the clock in Lebanon by 20 years", which if you need it spelling out means doing so much damage to civilian and economic infrastructure that it will take them 20 years to even get back to where they are today, not exactly the same thing as 'stopping Hizbollah'. This is a country that has been under occupation by Syria for decades, and has only just regained its independence, and before they can even get on their feet this happens.

So what is Israel supposed to do, sit and quietly put up with Hezbollah operating out of Lebanon and intruding into Israel for however long it takes for Lebanon to "get on their feet"? How long would that be? Its not like they just ran out Syria a couple days ago or something like that.

But hey, you're justifying Israel's actions by comparing them to the atrocities committed by terrorist groups, and that's about the only point I agree with you on - they are pretty much equivalent. Except of course, Israel wants to everyone to believe that when it bombs and fires rockets into towns and kills hundreds of innocent civilians, it's somehow different to terrorist groups who do the same thing.

Do you really think Israel intentionally targets civilians? I don't mean to ask if you think they're being too reckless with collateral damage. I mean to ask if you think they act in the full understanding and intention that their actions will probably kill lots of innocent people and they do nothing to mitigate that. I think that is a very difficult notion to support, even if its true. And it seems to me that you're all too quick to make the leap that when Israel does something bad "they're just as bad as the terrorists," while at the same time bending over backwards other times to minimize the actions of terrorists as being somehow legitimate. (Like your characterizing the kidnapping of an Israeli soldier as "capturing an enemy soldier" in another Israel thread a while back.)

Nice 'everyone hates the jews/siding with the terrorists' angle though. By all means continue to support their pounding of towns and cities and innocent civilians with their incredibly powerful military. Here's a newsflash for you though: IT WON'T WORK. If you think an extremist militia is going to give up because the enemy tries to destroy their country then you must be insane. The way to disarm a resistance force is through diminishing national support for their cause (clue: Israel bombing people ain't helping) and through the government. All this is doing is making people more determined to fight Israel.

Just once I would like someone to prove this whole notion that negotiating with terrorists makes them go away, and that fighting them somehow makes them multiply. People offer it as though its some kind of incontrovertible fact that certain classes of people are somehow drawn to terrorism and violence like moths to a flame, and that all anybody has to do is blow out the candle and everything will be hunky-dory. Can you give me some examples of where this grand strategy has worked?

And of course the real victims end up being innocent civilians who have nothing to do with the fighting. But we can only worry about the jewish ones right? The holocaust means they're more important

Dude...you're coming off a little hysterical here. The Holocaust has nothing to do with this, and I find it a little strange, to say the least, that you chose to bring it up so randomly. It doesn't matter who we're talking about, jewish or otherwise, the point is that its bad that any innocent people have to die...but that doesn't mean that one side of the conflict should have to take one for the team and let its own people get blown up randomly just for the sake of keeping the total body count low. Every country has to do right by its own people instead of holding some results oriented mindset that says "well if we don't do anything, dozens of our citizens will be killed... and if we do do something we might kill hundreds of some other country's people. Obviously our people are just gonna have to bite the bullet and get over the random terrorist attacks."

[DeviousJ]

Originally Posted by Corganist

So what is Israel supposed to do, sit and quietly put up with Hezbollah operating out of Lebanon and intruding into Israel for however long it takes for Lebanon to "get on their feet"? How long would that be? Its not like they just ran out Syria a couple days ago or something like that.

Clearly what they're supposed to do is start bombing major population centers in Lebanon

Originally Posted by Corganist

Do you really think Israel intentionally targets civilians? I don't mean to ask if you think they're being too reckless with collateral damage. I mean to ask if you think they act in the full understanding and intention that their actions will probably kill lots of innocent people and they do nothing to mitigate that. I think that is a very difficult notion to support, even if its true. And it seems to me that you're all too quick to make the leap that when Israel does something bad "they're just as bad as the terrorists," while at the same time bending over backwards other times to minimize the actions of terrorists as being somehow legitimate. (Like your characterizing the kidnapping of an Israeli soldier as "capturing an enemy soldier" in another Israel thread a while back.)

Yeah, I really think they know full well that a lot of people will get killed, and it doesn't take a genius to work out that that's what's going to happen. But generally I don't think they say 'let's go out and kill some civilians'. You brought this up in the other thread and made out that that was the difference between Israel and terrorists - that the terrorists intentionally kill civilians but Israel kills them while pursuing some other goal, and that this meant Israel was not as bad. I look at it a different way - terrorists intentionally killing civilians is obviously evil, but you have to recognize that they are at least aware of the worth of these people in making them targets. Israel doesn't even seem to factor it in, and its sheer disregard for human life in its operations is - to me - even more disturbing.

And what the hell, 'bending over backwards' to legitimize terrorist actions? Just because I consider one thing worse doesn't mean the other is peachy keen. And capturing an enemy soldier is about as close to legitimate warfare as you're likely to get from a terrorist faction

Originally Posted by Corganist

Just once I would like someone to prove this whole notion that negotiating with terrorists makes them go away, and that fighting them somehow makes them multiply. People offer it as though its some kind of incontrovertible fact that certain classes of people are somehow drawn to terrorism and violence like moths to a flame, and that all anybody has to do is blow out the candle and everything will be hunky-dory. Can you give me some examples of where this grand strategy has worked?

IRA

Originally Posted by Corganist

Dude...you're coming off a little hysterical here. The Holocaust has nothing to do with this, and I find it a little strange, to say the least, that you chose to bring it up so randomly. It doesn't matter who we're talking about, jewish or otherwise, the point is that its bad that any innocent people have to die...but that doesn't mean that one side of the conflict should have to take one for the team and let its own people get blown up randomly just for the sake of keeping the total body count low. Every country has to do right by its own people instead of holding some results oriented mindset that says "well if we don't do anything, dozens of our citizens will be killed... and if we do do something we might kill hundreds of some other country's people. Obviously our people are just gonna have to bite the bullet and get over the random terrorist attacks."

Did you read what I quoted?

[celluloid_love]

You guys know that most of the civilians that have been killed in Lebanon are there supporting Hezbollah and housing rockets, right?

[kiwi]

house those rockets

house 'em good

[phaedrus]

Corganist, Master of the Straw Man

[TuralyonW3]

now that's what I call a sticky situation

[phaedrus]

Originally Posted by celluloid_love

You guys know that most of the civilians that have been killed in Lebanon are there supporting Hezbollah and housing rockets, right?

yeah, all 375 of them. especially the women and children.


i still wonder why Israel was so dumb to agree to a prisoner swap in 2004. what a bad precedent to set.

[DeviousJ]

Oh hey, awesome

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/22/wo...2military.html

U.S. Speeds Up Bomb Delivery for the Israelis
By DAVID S. CLOUD and HELENE COOPER
Published: July 22, 2006

WASHINGTON, July 21 — The Bush administration is rushing a delivery of precision-guided bombs to Israel, which requested the expedited shipment last week after beginning its air campaign against Hezbollah targets in Lebanon, American officials said Friday.

The decision to quickly ship the weapons to Israel was made with relatively little debate within the Bush administration, the officials said. Its disclosure threatens to anger Arab governments and others because of the appearance that the United States is actively aiding the Israeli bombing campaign in a way that could be compared to Iran’s efforts to arm and resupply Hezbollah.

The munitions that the United States is sending to Israel are part of a multimillion-dollar arms sale package approved last year that Israel is able to draw on as needed, the officials said. But Israel’s request for expedited delivery of the satellite and laser-guided bombs was described as unusual by some military officers, and as an indication that Israel still had a long list of targets in Lebanon to strike.

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said Friday that she would head to Israel on Sunday at the beginning of a round of Middle Eastern diplomacy. The original plan was to include a stop to Cairo in her travels, but she did not announce any stops in Arab capitals.

Instead, the meeting of Arab and European envoys planned for Cairo will take place in Italy, Western diplomats said. While Arab governments initially criticized Hezbollah for starting the fight with Israel in Lebanon, discontent is rising in Arab countries over the number of civilian casualties in Lebanon, and the governments have become wary of playing host to Ms. Rice until a cease-fire package is put together.

To hold the meetings in an Arab capital before a diplomatic solution is reached, said Martin S. Indyk, a former American ambassador to Israel, “would have identified the Arabs as the primary partner of the United States in this project at a time where Hezbollah is accusing the Arab leaders of providing cover for the continuation of Israel’s military operation.”

The decision to stay away from Arab countries for now is a markedly different strategy from the shuttle diplomacy that previous administrations used to mediate in the Middle East. “I have no interest in diplomacy for the sake of returning Lebanon and Israel to the status quo ante,” Ms. Rice said Friday. “I could have gotten on a plane and rushed over and started shuttling around, and it wouldn’t have been clear what I was shuttling to do.”

Before Ms. Rice heads to Israel on Sunday, she will join President Bush at the White House for discussions on the Middle East crisis with two Saudi envoys, Saud al-Faisal, the foreign minister, and Prince Bandar bin Sultan, the secretary general of the National Security Council.

The new American arms shipment to Israel has not been announced publicly, and the officials who described the administration’s decision to rush the munitions to Israel would discuss it only after being promised anonymity. The officials included employees of two government agencies, and one described the shipment as just one example of a broad array of armaments that the United States has long provided Israel.

One American official said the shipment should not be compared to the kind of an “emergency resupply” of dwindling Israeli stockpiles that was provided during the 1973 Arab-Israeli war, when an American military airlift helped Israel recover from early Arab victories.

David Siegel, a spokesman for the Israeli Embassy in Washington, said: “We have been using precision-guided munitions in order to neutralize the military capabilities of Hezbollah and to minimize harm to civilians. As a rule, however, we do not comment on Israel’s defense acquisitions.”

Israel’s need for precision munitions is driven in part by its strategy in Lebanon, which includes destroying hardened underground bunkers where Hezbollah leaders are said to have taken refuge, as well as missile sites and other targets that would be hard to hit without laser and satellite-guided bombs.

Pentagon and military officials declined to describe in detail the size and contents of the shipment to Israel, and they would not say whether the munitions were being shipped by cargo aircraft or some other means. But an arms-sale package approved last year provides authority for Israel to purchase from the United States as many as 100 GBU-28’s, which are 5,000-pound laser-guided bombs intended to destroy concrete bunkers. The package also provides for selling satellite-guided munitions.

An announcement in 2005 that Israel was eligible to buy the “bunker buster” weapons described the GBU-28 as “a special weapon that was developed for penetrating hardened command centers located deep underground.” The document added, “The Israeli Air Force will use these GBU-28’s on their F-15 aircraft.”

American officials said that once a weapons purchase is approved, it is up to the buyer nation to set up a timetable. But one American official said normal procedures usually do not include rushing deliveries within days of a request. That was done because Israel is a close ally in the midst of hostilities, the official said.

Although Israel had some precision guided bombs in its stockpile when the campaign in Lebanon began, the Israelis may not have taken delivery of all the weapons they were entitled to under the 2005 sale.

Israel said its air force had dropped 23 tons of explosives Wednesday night alone in Beirut, in an effort to penetrate what was believed to be a bunker used by senior Hezbollah officials.

A senior Israeli official said Friday that the attacks to date had degraded Hezbollah’s military strength by roughly half, but that the campaign could go on for two more weeks or longer. “We will stay heavily with the air campaign,” he said. “There’s no time limit. We will end when we achieve our goals.”

The Bush administration announced Thursday a military equipment sale to Saudi Arabia, worth more than $6 billion, a move that may in part have been aimed at deflecting inevitable Arab government anger at the decision to supply Israel with munitions in the event that effort became public.

On Friday, Bush administration officials laid out their plans for the diplomatic strategy that Ms. Rice will pursue. In Rome, the United States will try to hammer out a diplomatic package that will offer Lebanon incentives under the condition that a United Nations resolution, which calls for the disarming of Hezbollah, is implemented.

Diplomats will also try to figure out the details around an eventual international peacekeeping force, and which countries will contribute to it. Germany and Russia have both indicated that they would be willing to contribute forces; Ms. Rice said the United States was unlikely to.

Implicit in the eventual diplomatic package is a cease-fire. But a senior American official said it remained unclear whether, under such a plan, Hezbollah would be asked to retreat from southern Lebanon and commit to a cease-fire, or whether American diplomats might depend on Israel’s continued bombardment to make Hezbollah’s acquiescence irrelevant.

Daniel Ayalon, Israel’s ambassador to Washington, said that Israel would not rule out an international force to police the borders of Lebanon and Syria and to patrol southern Lebanon, where Hezbollah has had a stronghold. But he said that Israel was first determined to take out Hezbollah’s command and control centers and weapons stockpiles.

[Mayfuck]

[Effloresce]

I'm sorry, but the large amount of innocent people suffering because of this is far more important than a couple soldiers that are missing. I do not say this to sound careless towards them; it is horrible what they have gone through, but for all we know they are dead, and even if they are not... all of this destruction is not worth it. Condi Rice acts like we must keep fighting them until they're completely gone; that is not going to fucking happen. There needs to be a cease fire, and there needs to be a cease fire now. Besides, you can still actively search for your soldiers without blowing the everlovin' shit out of every target in sight.

[celluloid_love]

Originally Posted by phaedrus

yeah, all 375 of them. especially the women and children.


i still wonder why Israel was so dumb to agree to a prisoner swap in 2004. what a bad precedent to set.

most

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[celluloid_love]

Originally Posted by kiwi

house those rockets

house 'em good

stop following me around Jack

[Corganist]

Originally Posted by DeviousJ

Clearly what they're supposed to do is start bombing major population centers in Lebanon

Maybe, maybe not. But regardless, I don't see how "waiting until Lebanon gets back on its feet" is a viable option for Israel. There's probably an appropriate middle ground in there that's a lot closer to the "take action" side of things than the "sit around and take it up the ass until Lebanon decides to help out" side.

I look at it a different way - terrorists intentionally killing civilians is obviously evil, but you have to recognize that they are at least aware of the worth of these people in making them targets. Israel doesn't even seem to factor it in, and its sheer disregard for human life in its operations is - to me - even more disturbing.

Why don't you seem to think they factor it in? That's what I'm not understanding. Israel has this sheer disregard for human life based on what? Body counts? Sadism? Are you really saying that Israel dropping a bomb in a neighborhood is more morally objectionable than the terrorists creating a reason for Israel to drop the bomb there in the first place? You seem to be saying its evil for the terrorists to set up shop among civilians, but by doing so they're showing more concern for the civilians lives, and by extension have less moral culpability than Israel does when they decide to accept the consequence risk the terrorists have created. That's a little unfair don't you think?

And what the hell, 'bending over backwards' to legitimize terrorist actions? Just because I consider one thing worse doesn't mean the other is peachy keen. And capturing an enemy soldier is about as close to legitimate warfare as you're likely to get from a terrorist faction

That's my point. It would be close to legitimate if the terrorists actually did "capture an enemy soldier," but that isn't what happened. You don't "capture" people by making a raid across the border, attacking a convoy unprovoked, and then carrying the survivors away. What these guys did wasn't close to legitimate at all.

IRA

Got a link?

Did you read what I quoted?

Sure, but I thought you'd be above fighting hysterics with hysterics, thats all.

[Lie]

I absolutely must request that DeviousJ and Corganist stop with the cheerful sarcasm and use of phrases like "hunky-dory" and "peachy keen."

[MrPantyFAce]

i dont know much of whats going on but i think jewish women can be really hott (that second t isnt a typo..i mean hot with two t's)

[Eric Blair]

Originally Posted by celluloid_love

You guys know that most of the civilians that have been killed in Lebanon are there supporting Hezbollah and housing rockets, right?

What's your source on this celluloid love? Did you ask their corpses?

[Tchocky]

Originally Posted by Corganist

Just once I would like someone to prove this whole notion that negotiating with terrorists makes them go away, and that fighting them somehow makes them multiply.

There's nothing to negotiate. Conservative Islam wants all Jews out of Israel. Until they leave, the fighting will not stop. All the Israelis have to do is give up, hand their territory over to Hamas, and leave. It's that simple...

and that hard.