EU constitution

[RopeyLopey]

Euronetphorians:

how and based on what are you gonna vote? Are you going to read the actual text of the constitution (available here - or how would you decide if it is a good thing or not?

I mean, isn't there something wrong, if almost all politicians are for it, and the campaign for saying Yes will be paid by government, and whoever says No is marked as the worst enemy ?

I am not saying if it's good or bad (as I haven't looked at the text of the constitution alone) - I am just a bit suspicious of in whose interest is it to get it accepted in the first place. Also, I am not particularly thrilled about possibility of EU having higher power than our parliament. I mean if I got it right, if a bunch of states get together, they can overturn the decisions of our (i.e. Czech) parliament - so this way if Germans get enough votes, they can declare our decrets about confiscating German properties after WWII about invalid and we do nothing about it.

Quite frankly, I hope it will be France right away, who will refuse it.

So how and based on what are you gonna make your mind?

Thanks
Jan

[sleeper]

i dont know as much about it as i should, but just in principle im for the unifying and strengthening of europe as a geopolitical entity. the constitution on the surface seems to have this as one of its primary purposes. for instance, there is provisions saying that member states should try to progressively improve their military capabilities. obviously some sovereignty on the national level will have to be sacrificed, but i think its for the greater good

[jczeroman]

I have read the entire draft constitution and I think it is a big mistake. The democratic deficit therin is much to broad to hope for anything better than a ruling oligarchy checked by a parliament removed several times from the European people. Basically, the commission still has way to much power in the constitution. Then again, I'm not a European so what I say doesn't really matter.

[GlasgowKiss]

I havent read the text, so im just going to have to go off the vibe...As such I disagree with the constitution. Anything that would be worthwhile doing, we could agree upon without losing sovereignty

[Mariner]

Originally posted by GlasgowKiss
I havent read the text, so im just going to have to go off the vibe...As such I disagree with the constitution. Anything that would be worthwhile doing, we could agree upon without losing sovereignty

[killer_tomato]

Originally posted by GlasgowKiss
I havent read the text, so im just going to have to go off the vibe...As such I agree with the constitution. If the British want to go on playing diplomatic mindgames they can fuck right off and if the Polish want the constitution to say "thanks Jesus!" they can fuck off too.

[smashingjj]

yeah fuck this. i'm very much against it and i think the majority of dutch people are. thank god they'll hopefully make a good decision this time.

[jczeroman]

Originally posted by smashingjj
yeah fuck this. i'm very much against it and i think the majority of dutch people are. thank god they'll hopefully make a good decision this time.

I had a four day lecture in my EU class from a Dutch Professor. Almost the entire presentation was on the democratic deficit in the EU.

Seriously, you people voting for this on vibes have idea how big the mistake is that you are making. This document basically sets up an oligrachy.

[smashingjj]

Originally posted by jczeroman


I had a four day lecture in my EU class from a Dutch Professor. Almost the entire presentation was on the democratic deficit in the EU.

Seriously, you people voting for this on vibes have idea how big the mistake is that you are making. This document basically sets up an oligrachy.

agreed, we'd simply be giving the power out of our hands. we'd become a province of europe.

WHOA JC AND ME AGREEING ON POLITICS WTF

[jczeroman]

Originally posted by smashingjj
agreed, we'd simply be giving the power out of our hands. we'd become a province of europe.

WHOA JC AND ME AGREEING ON POLITICS WTF

lol.

Well, it woudl do that to. I think that European unification is a great thing. So it looks like we're oposed, but for different reasons.

I am opposed because the commission still has WAY too much power (including the only body with the power of initiative) while parliament, despite getting more power in the constitution, still is too far away from the people.

In that sense then, you won't be a province of Europe, but a province of the European Commission (which is not elected). The idea of an elite, unelected council ruling all of europe with a monoply on initiative is just freaking terrifying.

[Nothing/everything]

i'm against the entire thing. Some "highlights" that really annoy me:

- Free market. Well basically there's nothing wrong with that. But i do not want both healthcare and education to be part of a commercial system. These two things should be public, and equal for everyone.

- Interference in social system. With the new constitution, all eu countries are allowed to decide for themselves on their social system, UNLESS the EU government decides to interfere. wtf is up with that?

And what's the use of a EU army? And why would we want to EU Parliament to decide on legislation the individual countries can decide on for themselves, such as migration, agriculture and crime figting.

[jczeroman]

Originally posted by Nothing/everything

- Free market. Well basically there's nothing wrong with that. But i do not want both healthcare and education to be part of a commercial system. These two things should be public, and equal for everyone.

It won't be. And as long as CAP is as bloated as it is you don't have to worry about a free-market ruining the eurosocialist paradise.

[Coen]

Originally posted by Nothing/everything
i'm against the entire thing. Some "highlights" that really annoy me:

- Interference in social system. With the new constitution, all eu countries are allowed to decide for themselves on their social system, UNLESS the EU government decides to interfere. wtf is up with that?

Pretty fucked up indeed. I'm thinking about issues like drug policy, Gay marriage and Euthanasia. I don't want Europe have anything to say about this. The EU still needs 67% procent of the country to change things, but It's still pretty creepy. We are losing our dutch identity here.

Originally posted by Nothing/everything


And what's the use of a EU army? And why would we want to EU Parliament to decide on legislation the individual countries can decide on for themselves, such as migration, agriculture and crime figting.

I don't see the whole point of this either. The EU also has the possibility to add new ideas to health care, culture, tourism and education. Adding new ideas is pretty much the same as slighty changing all these things. Pretty stupid.

I also hate the idea of having a EU minister for foreign affairs. How could the EU possibly speak for all EU-countries? This is only possible if they all have the same thoughts about eveything and we don't want that to happen, right?

[sleeper]

Originally posted by Coen


We are losing our dutch identity here.[/b]

from what i've been reading you already are. There has been a lot of coverage in the local papers here about the van Gogh murder and the chain reaction it has set off. its very interesting. they were saying that emigration is speeding up a lot in the netherlands and that canada is one of the most popular countries for dutch people to escape to. Its funny because the most popular place theyre heading to in canada is also one of the most multicultural and most like what it superficially seems like theyre trying to avoid. haha you should have seen the picture they had of the a dutch family that recently moved here. i hope all dutch people dont look like them, they were quite odd looking. they looked like they all had down syndrome or something

whats the vibe there like? ive been really interested in this, its a very rich topic. how much speed in the anti-immigration idea picking up? or is it slowing down? I think its fucking stupid that they canceled some showings of his film. that does exactly what the murderers want and just reinforces the idea that violence can successfully achieve such ends and will encourage others.

[Coen]

Originally posted by sleeper


from what i've been reading you already are. There has been a lot of coverage in the local papers here about the van Gogh murder and the chain reaction it has set off. its very interesting. they were saying that emigration is speeding up a lot in the netherlands and that canada is one of the most popular countries for dutch people to escape to. Its funny because the most popular place theyre heading to in canada is also one of the most multicultural and most like what it superficially seems like theyre trying to avoid. haha you should have seen the picture they had of the a dutch family that recently moved here. i hope all dutch people dont look like them, they were quite odd looking. they looked like they all had down syndrome or something

whats the vibe there like? ive been really interested in this, its a very rich topic. how much speed in the anti-immigration idea picking up? or is it slowing down?

There is still a lot of tension here. A lot of people are afraid. I can understand this, because of the burning mosques and moslim schools here in Holland. I don't have numbers of emigration or anything, but I think the number is pretty high.

Although I understand the fear in some way, I don't feel afraid. At all. I won't let fear control my life. And I know It has been a lot better in Holland, but some people just overreact.

Originally posted by sleeper


I think its fucking stupid that they canceled some showings of his film. that does exactly what the murderers want and just reinforces the idea that violence can successfully achieve such ends and will encourage others.

You're right about this. It's insane. But there's so much hate towards Hirshi Ali, that they were afraid of a killing attempt.

[sleeper]

Originally posted by Coen


There is still a lot of tension here. A lot of people are afraid. I can understand this, because of the burning mosques and moslim schools here in Holland. I don't have numbers of emigration or anything, but I think the number is pretty high.

Although I understand the fear in some way, I don't feel afraid. At all. I won't let fear control my life. And I know It has been a lot better in Holland, but some people just overreact.


You're right about this. It's insane. But there's so much hate towards Hirshi Ali, that they were afraid of a killing attempt.

i actually feel really bad for you and your country, this is an awful situation. it really does seem like youre, one way or another, essentially going to lose your country. itll never be the same. its happening in such a way that i think is very difficult or impossible to stop. its something of a catch-22, in that whatever action you take youre going to radically alter dutch society against your wishes. if you continue opening your arms to anyone and being tolerant to different peoples and their ways of living, more people who have no intention of even the slightest assimilation will come and radically alter your society, pushing dutch people to leave the country and leading to incidents of intolerance like the van gogh murder. all the same, the very act of clamping down is itself a big change away from historically what has been your country's posture on these matters. for better or worse, it seems like holland of yore is going away

back when this started the papers here kept framing the issue as 'a country losing its innocence', if you know what i mean. its a shame that your country is losing its reputation as a bastion of tolerance, peace, etc, even if it isnt totally warranted. the world is watching and thats the impression were getting.

overall, it seems like theres one thing that everybody is thinking but nobody is willing to say. if you smell me. i wont say it. you can if you want. but i wont. im thinking it. but im not allowed to say it. wink if you get me.

[Nimrod's Son]

Nothin' like taking the power out of the hands of millions of people and handing it over to a select few

[jczeroman]

Originally posted by Nimrod's Son
Nothin' like taking the power out of the hands of millions of people and handing it over to a select few

Europe has always been prone to this. It's the legacy of Rome. It has been almost every rulers dream in Europe to "go back" to the unification existant in the Roman Empire. The elites behind the EU are no different than their historical predecesors.

[RopeyLopey]

Originally posted by sleeper


and that canada is one of the most popular countries for dutch people to escape to. Its funny because the most popular place theyre heading to in canada is also one of the most multicultural and most like what it superficially seems like theyre trying to avoid.

that's wierd, indeed. I don't know, but being here I have a feeling that if Canada won't strengten up its immigration policy or at least asking for more adaptation from newcomers, the country is on a right track to become a new Holland in this sense, sooner or later.

[sleeper]

Originally posted by RopeyLopey


that's wierd, indeed. I don't know, but being here I have a feeling that if Canada won't strengten up its immigration policy or at least asking for more adaptation from newcomers, the country is on a right track to become a new Holland in this sense, sooner or later.

canada could be seen to already be what holland is becoming, yeah, in a sense. i think the big difference is that holland actually has a culture and history to lose. immigration is of no particular concern to canadians because this is how our county has always been. canada has no identity that can really be lost through immigration; the entire country is founded on immigration and openly allowing people to maintain their many different cultures. in fact, the opposite, a halt to immigration, would start radical change in our society. but for some reason it all totally works here. i havent figured it out yet. maybe it has to do with our geography and relatively small population, the fact that theres so much land to inhabit. or maybe the cold just keeps away the weak. in any case canada is remarkably successful with its immigration, an area that seems to be so troublesome for many other countries

[RopeyLopey]

Originally posted by sleeper


canada could be seen to already be what holland is becoming, yeah, in a sense. i think the big difference is that holland actually has a culture and history to lose. immigration is of no particular concern to canadians because this is how our county has always been. canada has no identity that can really be lost through immigration; the entire country is founded on immigration and openly allowing people to maintain their many different cultures. in fact, the opposite, a halt to immigration, would start radical change in our society. but for some reason it all totally works here. i havent figured it out yet. maybe it has to do with our geography and relatively small population, the fact that theres so much land to inhabit. or maybe the cold just keeps away the weak. in any case canada is remarkably successful with its immigration, an area that seems to be so troublesome for many other countries

I tell you a small story that happened to me few weeks ago - and you tell me if it's a good or bad thing.

I sit with 3 Chinese people in the room at school (there are only four of us in that room) and more than 3/4 of our team (about 14 souls) come from China. Virtually the whole day I hear only Chinese.
Now there came one friend (also Chinese) of one of my co-workers into the office and we introduced ourselves. Her English was really, really bad. The first question she asked me was if I speak Chinese. I said no, not a single word and she looked really surprised, if not shocked. She asked me how's that possible when there are only Chinese people around me, so how come I don't speak any Chinese at all. This tone let me grasping for breath a bit.

I mean isn't there something wrong, when I am in an English-speaking country, being asked by a girl how come I speak no Chinese? I mean this girl gets completely fine along without using any English at all, as whatever she needs she gets in Chinatown - her whole life is contained within the Chinese community without not too much need for an interaction with 'outside' world.

Tell me, is this a good or bad thing for Canada? Isn't this a sign of a certain decline? Is this good and in interest of the whole Canadian society? Is this what Canada wants? I don't know, maybe it's just me coming from a place where national identity and need for adaptation means a lot due to our history.

I mean - what is it then what all Canadians have in common? Is it just the fact you live in one country, but otherwise you have nothing in common at all?

Too bad I haven't asked her what does it mean to be a Canadian (or at least about her relation to Canada as a nation, country) -could be quite nteresting to hear what she'd say.


oh and in general - I don't say an immigration is a wrong thing for Canada - I completely agree with you. However, I just wonder if Canada should apply a somewhat stricter(?) approach while deciding whom to let in and whom not and ask for more adaptation from the ones who are let to stay. I don't know, that's just my view from inside/outside, living here, but not being a Canadian.

[sleeper]

Originally posted by RopeyLopey


I tell you a small story that happened to me few weeks ago - and you tell me if it's a good or bad thing.

I sit with 3 Chinese people in the room at school (there are only four of us in that room) and more than 3/4 of our team (about 14 souls) come from China. Virtually the whole day I hear only Chinese.
Now there came one friend (also Chinese) of one of my co-workers into the office and we introduced ourselves. Her English was really, really bad. The first question she asked me was if I speak Chinese. I said no, not a single word and she looked really surprised, if not shocked. She asked me how's that possible when there are only Chinese people around me, so how come I don't speak any Chinese at all. This tone let me grasping for breath a bit.

I mean isn't there something wrong, when I am in an English-speaking country, being asked by a girl how come I speak no Chinese? I mean this girl gets completely fine along without using any English at all, as whatever she needs she gets in Chinatown - her whole life is contained within the Chinese community without not too much need for an interaction with 'outside' world.

Tell me, is this a good or bad thing for Canada? Isn't this a sign of a certain decline? Is this good and in interest of the whole Canadian society? Is this what Canada wants? I don't know, maybe it's just me coming from a place where national identity and need for adaptation means a lot due to our history.

I mean - what is it then what all Canadians have in common? Is it just the fact you live in one country, but otherwise you have nothing in common at all?

Too bad I haven't asked her what does it mean to be a Canadian (or at least about her relation to Canada as a nation, country) -could be quite nteresting to hear what she'd say.


oh and in general - I don't say an immigration is a wrong thing for Canada - I completely agree with you. However, I just wonder if Canada should apply a somewhat stricter(?) approach while deciding whom to let in and whom not and ask for more adaptation from the ones who are let to stay. I don't know, that's just my view from inside/outside, living here, but not being a Canadian.

i know exactly what youre getting at, and your example is symbolic of what a lot of people protest about when it comes to immigration. to be honest, its an enormously complicated issue, one i havent fully concluded much on. its very difficult. the only thing i can say, which i think is what nobody wants to say, is that its not immigration that is the problem per se, but who is immigrating and how theyre immigrating. with more stress on the former. to speak the unspeakable, people are more in opposition to certain types of people moving into their city -- black, muslim, latin, whatever -- then the idea of immigration, whether they know it or not. i dont even want to touch this, but thats the real issue for a lot of people, i think. until people open this avenue up for taboo-free debate, the whole immigration debate might as well not even begin. for instance, ask any canadian and they wouldnt even blink were you to say to them that the entire population of the netherlands is going to move here next week. ask the same question with, whatever, morroco in place of the netherlands and youd get a much different response. people want to feign an attitude of all-encompassing tolerance, but its a fundamentally shaky idea that i doubt many truly subscribe to. again, im make no comment on this. how they immigrate and assimilate are also other huge issues. obviously immigrating legally is of concern, but a really complicated issue is to what extent people should be "forced" to assimilate. speaking the language is an oft mentioned one, of course. i dont know. really, i just dont know