Something I've been thinking about

sawdust restaurants · 12-29-2002, 02:49 PM

Do all human beings deserve dignity and respect simply for being human beings, regardless of their circumstances? And, if you believe they do, how do you act according to that belief? If you think about it, simply holding the belief that ALL humans deserve these things is pretty uncommon in the western world, especially in North America, thanks to the Puritan model of freewill individualism and accountability. We still have the death penalty, for example, a basic tenet of which is that when you strip another of their life, you lose your own dignity and right to life, which directly contradicts the original philosophy.

And the thing that's probably more interesting to me is the practical application of it. The death penalty is one example, but it's a bit more pervasive than that--I think it manages to touch every walk of life, even Netphoria. Every flame war you participate in, every person you berate (seriously) for liking Avril Lavigne or something ... or, even more likely, Netphorians making fun of o-boarders for being stupid. I could be wrong, but I don't think it's inaccurate to say that Netphoria's average IQ is probably at least a good 10 points higher than the average IQ on the o-board, and I don't think that's a pretentious or arrogant thing to say at all; it just seems to be the case. Most people would say that's nothing to be derisive about, because all people deserve respect, but how many of us have slammed o-boarders--or going back farther in Netphorian history, people from the Creed board or countless trolls? Or Netphorians themselves? (Mandy, anybody?)

Which brings me back to my original question: should we treat all human beings with equal dignity and respect. If so, why, and how do you apply that belief to everyday life? If not, why not?

beef curtains · 12-29-2002, 02:57 PM

After this pile of garbage you've just spouted, i'll use you as an example in my argument for NO!

beef curtains · 12-29-2002, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hyperbole

sails = windless

Eulogy · 12-29-2002, 03:11 PM

No. People need to earn it....or at least not do anything that would cause them to lose it.

beef curtains · 12-29-2002, 03:11 PM

are you saying that i took the wind out of his sails or that my joke was crap??

i'm a bit slow this evening

Irrelevant · 12-29-2002, 03:16 PM

my answer is no, they probably don't. but when it comes to the death penalty, i tend to think it's not a punishment, but a revenge, and that you're not really better than the person being executed if you're rooting for their death.

beef curtains · 12-29-2002, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hyperbole

no one ever gets me.

that's ok, geniuses are often misunderstood.....and also often quite mad

Undone · 12-29-2002, 05:43 PM

Chris (Female)-- Sorry to drop my LJ, but I just recently made an entry on absolute morality especially in regard to religious ideas on what morality is. http://www.livejournal.com/users/art_junkie/

And I agree with what everything you and Delta have said so far. I have racist and homophobic relatives (and homophobic friends) also, and I think that respect can operate on different levels. I have to keep a hope that humans have the ability to change. With that caveat out of the way, I'll say that not all opinions are created equal. There is subjectivity, and then there are beliefs based on outright misinformation. My mom will listen to me rant using logic and scientific examples for 10 minutes on why homosexuality isn't 'wrong', and then she'll counter it with "everyone has their opinion". I still haven't figured out if she honest to god doesn't have a response or just says that to piss me off.

So while I will not respect that part of her, I won't feel guilty about it b/c I understand that she can gradually learn or have an epiphany. Her other positive traits will be respected. Perhaps liking or disliking someone is a bit too extreme unless negative/positive traits so greatly outweigh each other that a solid judgment can be made. And even then, you'd have to know everything about a person. If I were to say what you said, I'd edit your statement of being prejudiced against racists and instead be prejudiced against racism.

Samsa · 12-29-2002, 07:19 PM

christians always say: hate the sin, not the sinner. i guess that's a good way of thinking about it. maaaaaybe

Samsa · 12-29-2002, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Samsa
christians always say: hate the sin, not the sinner. i guess that's a good way of thinking about it. maaaaaybe

but you know, a lot of people say the number one fault of [american?] society today is no one takes responsibility for their actions. you know. oh i weigh 300 pounds, let's sue macdonalds; alcoholism is a disease; a murderer/child/spouse abuser is a product of his environment; etc etc etc. and you know maybe these are valid arguments but. you know what i'm saying. you know. maybe we shouldn't try to respect 'diversity of beliefs' as much as we do. or maybe we should. who knows

i guess in some way nobody is *really* responsible for their actions, maybe the problem arises when we start punishing people for certain things. rehabilitation is a better tactic i think and it allows for you to respect people even if they're horrible. i guess.

Samsa · 12-29-2002, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Delta
so who defines what's rehabilitable? should be fix homosexuals? how about muslims? because the former are perverts and the latter are terrorists right?

well that's almost a post-modern problem isn't it or something? i guess you can sit there asking yourself what's right and what's wrong but i think it's pretty...you know. the general concept of 'freedom' is that you should be free to do whatever you want as long as it doesn't infringe on someone else's rights. and maybe that's sort of a thin red line sometimes (when it comes to 'offending' people or whatever), i don't know. i think it's pretty obvious that homosexuals and muslims wouldn't be rehabilitated. the real question does come with bigots. should you 'rehabilitate' racists? probably not, i guess unless they do something that's bad but wouldn't that consist of changing the way they view things? it's a problem but i don't think punishing people fixes things either. or maybe it does. who knows.

Samsa · 12-29-2002, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hyperbole

that was my whole point, though, racists have a right to believe what they want, as long as they dont publicly act on it (i know thats their legal right as well, but i agree with that law)...and if the gov't or 'those in charge' begin to infringe on people's thoughts and beliefs, it'll be a nazi dictatorship.

but this will probably go in circles from here on in.

and your point is . . . ?

Samsa · 12-29-2002, 07:57 PM

one problem is people mistake 'right' with 'acceptable'

you know the famous voltaire quote, "i may disagree with what you say but i defend to the death your right to say it", some people have a certain tendency to think everything that's ALLOWED to be thought should also be agreed with or "respected", like racism. racist beliefs may be 'legal' but i seriously don't think they are ethically or logically acceptable. i would have a hard time respecting a racist. i guess it goes back to what delta john said, you know, there are different levels of respect. i think it would be silly to respect, i don't know, john doe as much as you'd respect like gandhi or something. at least in one certain way. maybe some people are just 'better' people. are they? like all these modernists or whatever go "every man was NOT created equal" and eh, it just depends on what "is" is

Samsa · 12-29-2002, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hyperbole

that was my whole point, though, racists have a right to believe what they want, as long as they dont publicly act on it (i know thats their legal right as well, but i agree with that law)...and if the gov't or 'those in charge' begin to infringe on people's thoughts and beliefs, it'll be a nazi dictatorship.

but this will probably go in circles from here on in.

so what? was i replying to you? no. i don't see why you felt the need to quote me saying "that was my point" as if you can copyright points or something. i don't give a fuck what your point is. and stop fucking 'preaching' things to me. so you're going to say "that's my point" and then repeat your "point" which was maybe halfway my point but really something i mentioned in passing?

Samsa · 12-29-2002, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Delta

isnt that exactly what she posted?

just ignore her. she's a little full of herself :erm

Samsa · 12-29-2002, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hyperbole

yeah, but then she went on to talk about the word "right" as if she thought it meant "correct" in that context.
i dont know, i have a hard time with her posts, they're rarely articulate.

or maybe you're just REALLY bad at interpreting what people are saying. how about you stop critiquing things you can't even read, huh?

Samsa · 12-29-2002, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Samsa
one problem is people mistake 'right' with 'acceptable'

*cough*

Samsa · 12-29-2002, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hyperbole

i assumed that you didnt understand what i had posted, so i repeated my point. jeez, calm down, psycho.

oh, so now she tells ME to calm down, miss thang who just felt it would be fun to *pretend* i said "you're" just so she could insult me more

i didn't understand what you posted?

how about "didn't care and never will"

Samsa · 12-29-2002, 08:21 PM

because, miss thang, i do not like you. and don't respond with "i don't like you back", that would be so miss thang of you. but that doesn't mean you have to die or something.

Samsa · 12-29-2002, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hyperbole
it's pretty obvious that you typed "your" and not "you're". but when you went on to explain things, it didnt make any sense to me, so i assumed you interpreted the quote wrong.

you really need to stop spazzing about everything. you'd probably make a lot more sense if you calmed down.

oh it didn't make any sense to you, maybe that's 'cause you're really really stupid and/or you are predetermined to try to pick apart everything i say simply because you dislike me

i need to stop spazzing about everything? uhh huh. explain to me what i spazzed about in this thread. do you know me? do you see me spazzing? uh huh. i think you have a tendency to prejudge and predetermine what people are like, even if you don't even know them. i think you are full of yourself. i think you will always insist you're right even when you're not. little miss "there are no moral absolutes" hypocrite. how about you stay out of my way?

i purposefully ignored you in this thread. and look what miss thang does. she harasses me. uhh huh. maybe i'd make a lot more sense if you just didn't bother to read my posts.

Samsa · 12-29-2002, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Delta
only on netphoria could a thread about tolerating and respecting the views of others degenerate into a flame war

not my fault if a certain person is a slave to her pms

Samsa · 12-29-2002, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hyperbole

oh, the irony!

you make no sense whether i like you or not.

actually it's only ironic to you because you like most people enjoy projecting your bad traits onto other people.

Samsa · 12-29-2002, 08:37 PM

i still can't get over people who say something makes 'no sense' as an excuse for their own stupidity. i get so mad when someone talks about a great movie and says it 'made no sense' just because they were too stupid to get it. or if someone looks at a piece of art and goes 'that's stupid. it doesn't make any sense'. really good rationalization there, bub. do you own a "sense-o-meter" ? i don't think that exists. you tell me what "making sense" equals and then maybe i'll agree with you.

Samsa · 12-29-2002, 08:42 PM

you know what i really dislike about you, miss thang? the fact that i have always been perfectly pleasant, even FRIENDLY towards you (even though i always found you sort of annoying), until you one day had the nerve to start insulting me in some random flame war. i found it very rude. 'cause i remember how i'd reply to your moronic "waaa waaa what do i make for dinner waa" posts with a helpful reply, you'd never respond. etc. you'd make some post that no one would reply to and i'd feel sorry for you and respond, you'd never acknowledge my presence. and then one day you just waltzed into some flame war and dissed me. that's what i call a bitch. so whatever. sit on your high fucking horse "oh wow i am a cow and prooud of it" or whatever, i really don't care anymore. i now know that if there is a thread with hyperbole in it, i am not safe from her disturbingly off-the-mark critiques.

sawdust restaurants · 12-29-2002, 11:26 PM

So I take it from you guys that the answer is no? ...

Samsa · 12-29-2002, 11:41 PM

and you know what i just realized? i wasn't even "making hyperbole's point" (whatever the fuck that means)

in reference to "you can think whatever you want as long as it doesn't hurt anyone" (most people in this country would probably take that as a given in the first place), i was referring to the concept of *rehabilitating* criminals/rapists/etc whatever. and what do you do to rehabilitate someone that has committed a hate crime huh? how do you *rehabilitate* them without interfering with their "beliefs" ??

i don't recall you ever making that point, your excellency.

12-29-2002, 02:49 PM	#1
sawdust restaurants Fucking Creep Location: On the East Coast Posts: 5,992	Something I've been thinking about Do all human beings deserve dignity and respect simply for being human beings, regardless of their circumstances? And, if you believe they do, how do you act according to that belief? If you think about it, simply holding the belief that ALL humans deserve these things is pretty uncommon in the western world, especially in North America, thanks to the Puritan model of freewill individualism and accountability. We still have the death penalty, for example, a basic tenet of which is that when you strip another of their life, you lose your own dignity and right to life, which directly contradicts the original philosophy. And the thing that's probably more interesting to me is the practical application of it. The death penalty is one example, but it's a bit more pervasive than that--I think it manages to touch every walk of life, even Netphoria. Every flame war you participate in, every person you berate (seriously) for liking Avril Lavigne or something ... or, even more likely, Netphorians making fun of o-boarders for being stupid. I could be wrong, but I don't think it's inaccurate to say that Netphoria's average IQ is probably at least a good 10 points higher than the average IQ on the o-board, and I don't think that's a pretentious or arrogant thing to say at all; it just seems to be the case. Most people would say that's nothing to be derisive about, because all people deserve respect, but how many of us have slammed o-boarders--or going back farther in Netphorian history, people from the Creed board or countless trolls? Or Netphorians themselves? (Mandy, anybody?) Which brings me back to my original question: should we treat all human beings with equal dignity and respect. If so, why, and how do you apply that belief to everyday life? If not, why not?

12-29-2002, 02:57 PM	#2
beef curtains Immortal Location: I like me so much better when you're naked Posts: 21,752	After this pile of garbage you've just spouted, i'll use you as an example in my argument for NO!

12-29-2002, 03:11 PM	#4
Eulogy huh Posts: 62,361	No. People need to earn it....or at least not do anything that would cause them to lose it.

12-29-2002, 03:16 PM	#6
Irrelevant Minion of Satan Location: kitties Posts: 6,842	my answer is no, they probably don't. but when it comes to the death penalty, i tend to think it's not a punishment, but a revenge, and that you're not really better than the person being executed if you're rooting for their death.

12-29-2002, 05:43 PM	#8
Undone Apocalyptic Poster Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 1,335	Chris (Female)-- Sorry to drop my LJ, but I just recently made an entry on absolute morality especially in regard to religious ideas on what morality is. http://www.livejournal.com/users/art_junkie/ And I agree with what everything you and Delta have said so far. I have racist and homophobic relatives (and homophobic friends) also, and I think that respect can operate on different levels. I have to keep a hope that humans have the ability to change. With that caveat out of the way, I'll say that not all opinions are created equal. There is subjectivity, and then there are beliefs based on outright misinformation. My mom will listen to me rant using logic and scientific examples for 10 minutes on why homosexuality isn't 'wrong', and then she'll counter it with "everyone has their opinion". I still haven't figured out if she honest to god doesn't have a response or just says that to piss me off. So while I will not respect that part of her, I won't feel guilty about it b/c I understand that she can gradually learn or have an epiphany. Her other positive traits will be respected. Perhaps liking or disliking someone is a bit too extreme unless negative/positive traits so greatly outweigh each other that a solid judgment can be made. And even then, you'd have to know everything about a person. If I were to say what you said, I'd edit your statement of being prejudiced against racists and instead be prejudiced against racism.

12-29-2002, 07:19 PM	#9
Samsa Banned Location: A theater near you Posts: 7,929	christians always say: hate the sin, not the sinner. i guess that's a good way of thinking about it. maaaaaybe

12-29-2002, 07:57 PM	#13
Samsa Banned Location: A theater near you Posts: 7,929	one problem is people mistake 'right' with 'acceptable' you know the famous voltaire quote, "i may disagree with what you say but i defend to the death your right to say it", some people have a certain tendency to think everything that's ALLOWED to be thought should also be agreed with or "respected", like racism. racist beliefs may be 'legal' but i seriously don't think they are ethically or logically acceptable. i would have a hard time respecting a racist. i guess it goes back to what delta john said, you know, there are different levels of respect. i think it would be silly to respect, i don't know, john doe as much as you'd respect like gandhi or something. at least in one certain way. maybe some people are just 'better' people. are they? like all these modernists or whatever go "every man was NOT created equal" and eh, it just depends on what "is" is

12-29-2002, 08:21 PM	#19
Samsa Banned Location: A theater near you Posts: 7,929	because, miss thang, i do not like you. and don't respond with "i don't like you back", that would be so miss thang of you. but that doesn't mean you have to die or something.

12-29-2002, 08:37 PM	#23
Samsa Banned Location: A theater near you Posts: 7,929	i still can't get over people who say something makes 'no sense' as an excuse for their own stupidity. i get so mad when someone talks about a great movie and says it 'made no sense' just because they were too stupid to get it. or if someone looks at a piece of art and goes 'that's stupid. it doesn't make any sense'. really good rationalization there, bub. do you own a "sense-o-meter" ? i don't think that exists. you tell me what "making sense" equals and then maybe i'll agree with you.

12-29-2002, 08:42 PM	#24
Samsa Banned Location: A theater near you Posts: 7,929	you know what i really dislike about you, miss thang? the fact that i have always been perfectly pleasant, even FRIENDLY towards you (even though i always found you sort of annoying), until you one day had the nerve to start insulting me in some random flame war. i found it very rude. 'cause i remember how i'd reply to your moronic "waaa waaa what do i make for dinner waa" posts with a helpful reply, you'd never respond. etc. you'd make some post that no one would reply to and i'd feel sorry for you and respond, you'd never acknowledge my presence. and then one day you just waltzed into some flame war and dissed me. that's what i call a bitch. so whatever. sit on your high fucking horse "oh wow i am a cow and prooud of it" or whatever, i really don't care anymore. i now know that if there is a thread with hyperbole in it, i am not safe from her disturbingly off-the-mark critiques.

12-29-2002, 11:26 PM	#25
sawdust restaurants Fucking Creep Location: On the East Coast Posts: 5,992	So I take it from you guys that the answer is no? ...

12-29-2002, 11:41 PM	#26
Samsa Banned Location: A theater near you Posts: 7,929	and you know what i just realized? i wasn't even "making hyperbole's point" (whatever the fuck that means) in reference to "you can think whatever you want as long as it doesn't hurt anyone" (most people in this country would probably take that as a given in the first place), i was referring to the concept of rehabilitating criminals/rapists/etc whatever. and what do you do to rehabilitate someone that has committed a hate crime huh? how do you rehabilitate them without interfering with their "beliefs" ?? i don't recall you ever making that point, your excellency.