[Disco King]

Originally Posted by myosis

i once wrote a long tirade about putting yourself in the woman's shoes and how is she going to interpret all the awkward posturing of a mysterious guy who's constantly going on dates with many girls and trying to smooch with them hours after meeting...
i didn't post it and i don't think i can articulate it well again.

Well, I thought it would be taken as a given that when making these moves, you still have to be socially competent and read body language and gauge whether or not she'd be open to the moves being made, not just literally grabbing her and kissing her because it's been an hour into the date and the reminder you set on your phone went off. I'm saying that if there are actual windows to escalate, and you fail to use any of them out of shyness and just continue to act platonically, her attraction will eventually fade, and you'll get the "I didn't feel the spark, I feel like we're just friends" thing.

If you misjudge her body language and make a move that she isn't receptive to (you can feel that she's rigid, or she might even verbally tell you), then just back off, obviously. One of the dates I went on sometime last month, she seemed to reject advances early on in the date (almost in a teasing way, like "oh no no, I'm not letting you do that [wink wink]," rather than in an actually uncomfortable way), and I'd just take two steps back and give her space, and try a bit later on. By the end of the date, she was asking to go home with me and wanted to get physical (though I couldn't do that, because I'm a baby and I live with my parents, so nothing happened).

Originally Posted by myosis

but the big question I have is, you say from experience that it doesn't work out when you don't make any bold moves. So how many times have things worked out when you make these bold moves, i.e. developping into a relationship? or am i misinterpreting your motives and you are only after sex?

Well, since I'm usually too shy to make any moves and usually default to just acting platonically, most of my experiences have tended that way. But I've noticed a higher probability of getting further dates if I do make a move. It's just that, usually on those further dates, the awkwardness comes back and I revert to being too platonic, instead of escalating further.

I've also noticed another pattern: just as the onus is on the man to escalate everything to sustain attraction, it's also on him to pull back and put the breaks on things a little. Due to what I think is internalized slut-shaming, women can get a little reticent about going on subsequent dates even after they really liked you and enthusiastically made out with you on the previous one. I'm thinking part of them goes, "oh god, why did I do that with a guy I pretty much just met? I'm not that kind of girl, good girls don't do that. Maybe I should break things off now." So, I find that just as being too platonic and not making a move freezes you out from further dates, having things get too heated does, too. But if in the middle of making out or kissing, you're actually the first to push back a little and go "we're getting ahead of ourselves" and bring it back to conversation, now you've given her some space to not feel so self-conscious and guilty about being physically intimate with you.

Originally Posted by myosis

i don't believe that at all...
ok, i don't want to go into fuzzy mode, or feel like a "mansplainer" myself (it's not an appropriate reference, i know), but I will try to extrapolate on my outlook on things.

so regarding this topic, i am quite a big fan of flirting. or i have been. that is, i enjoy flirting with someone with whom i feel attraction.
of course the way a date will progress has everything to do with how you behave. but i think we disagree on the steps to take, or the importance of each one. i feel maybe you underestimate the power of something called tension? there is a slippery slope that you engage in as soon as you go into physical intimacy. it is a fragile barrier, and it is different for everyone, and it can be transgressed much too soon.

In this matter, I feel as though we probably agree more than we disagree. I also think flirting is important, and my tendency to be too platonic and not flirt enough is also what leads to dates not feeling the chemistry. Flirting is exactly what creates the tension that creates the windows in which she will be open to you making further moves, so it goes hand-in-hand, and I probably should have been clearer that I was including flirtatious behaviour in the constellation of acts I referred to as "making moves."

For example, that last date I went on, I obviously made sure to start flirting with her in order to actually be able to warrant physical contact. I also think tension is important; the way I initiated the kiss was actually by getting her to kiss me by creating flirtatious tension. When it came to some natural pause or lull in our intimate conversation, instead of relenting to my knee-jerk reaction to look away and around the room during pauses in speech, I just held eye contact with her, staring into her eyes without saying a word or breaking the silence. I did this for however long, and it caused her to actually move in to kiss me. This is powerful, because it eliminates your chance having the move rejected if you actually kinda got her to do it herself.

Originally Posted by myosis

i actually strongly believe that the type of girl with whom a guy like you can form a real bond and connection, well this type of girl probably has a strong barrier herself. so it might be necessary to work at her in more subtle ways, gain her trust and confidence. enjoy some ambiguous flirting. flirting can escalate in many ways before becoming physical. i've never held the hand of a girl i wasn't feeling totally smitten with. otherwise it just feels weird, doesn't it? kissing is even more weird to me. kissing is a statement. agreed, some people take kissing lightly, but I have my own limits and i need to respect them.

I used to think that the shy, nervous girls would be more understanding of my shyness and nervousness, because they know where I'm coming from. Experience is showing me that they actually want a guy that compensates for their reticence by kind of taking the lead, thereby taking the burden of uncertainty off of her shoulders and being her source of stability and comfort. They don't want more of the awkwardness in their lives that they are already good at providing. This one kind of hurt to learn, because upon finding somebody I really liked who I felt even more kinship with because of our similar problems, I really thought "wow, this one... this one's the one." And I could tell she liked me back, especially because she gave things more of a shot and gave me more dates before finally calling it quits in hopes that things would turn around and get less awkward. And I messed it up, because the responsibility was on me to take charge and makes things less awkward and platonic.

I agree with you, flirting is obviously key to facilitating these connections, and that was one of the things I was too shy and awkward to engage in, leading to the lack of felt chemistry.

Originally Posted by myosis

yes, after some tension has built (or so i imagine), i'd like to initiate touch to see how she reacts about it. then maybe eventually take her hand. i don't need to escalate this to a kiss within the next 20 minutes. I mean, doesn't this simple act speak volumes in itself? isn't this a statement? isn't this enough to plant a seed, go to sleep with a smile and feeling good about having met someone interesting, and think about this someone (positively)? if not, i guess she's just not into you, if so, there is still some tension to work at. if you kiss too quick you kinda blow all the tension away, and then it's already time for the other one to figure out "how do i feel about the next level? wait, how well do i know this person?"

Yeah, never said you have to escalate to the kiss in 20 minutes or whatever, but you have to make sure you create those windows of opportunity through tension and flirting, and though missing some windows is fine (and could even help in creating more tension), if you miss too many and don't do anything, she will lose interest. And though kissing too early is bad because you won't have built up that tension or comfort, doing that whole "saving the kiss at the very end of the night when you're parting" also puts too much pressure on it and can make it awkward, instead of something that just feels natural and fun. Kissing preferably happens somewhere between "so early that you haven't built a foundation for it yet, causing her to reject it or only accept it uncomfortably," and "at the very end, like you've been two nervous to do it the entire date because you're inexperienced and this is new to you and also you're in high school." Before you've built up enough comfort and rapport, it will definitely also spark that "wait, how much do I know this guy?" feeling, which triggers the internalized slut-shaming and makes her feel "easy" for being with you, instead of like she earned you just as much as you earned her. Also, common-sense feelings of "I'm not even 100% sure this guy won't wear my skin as a suit yet, I should bail."

Originally Posted by myosis

yes many girls will have a lot of trouble figuring you out. that's very unfortunate and hard to deal with. but i have a hard time believing that they will figure you out better when you give mixed signals of wanting to be bold and at the same time anxious of your every move, and then them having to think about "where do I stand about kissing some guy and then going four 4 days without talking and he's only texting me about the logistics of our eventual next date. oh, did he say he had another date with someone else this week? ok..."

Well, I mean, even though I don't hide the fact that I'm not exclusive and we're both free to see whomever, I think it's polite to not talk about other dates while on a date. It's kind of a don't-ask-don't-tell thing. I also don't want to hear about her other recent dates. Nobody wants to feel like they're on The Bachelor or The Bachelorette, you know? While you're with somebody, I feel it's best to give them your undivided attention and not make direct comparisons to other people you're seeing.

As for texting, I just noticed that even though some girls seem to want to chat all the time, when you actually give them what they seem to want and chat with them, they lose interest and they ghost. Especially because, how much interesting stuff can you really convey succinctly over text? If you're not engaging in conversation that creates value and you're just talking about laundry and shit, you're killing attraction and becoming another one of her girl friends that she chats with. And if you actually get into meaningful conversation, that becomes entire paragraphs, and responding to you becomes a time investment that she has to squeeze into her day, another obligatory chore, and that kills attraction and gets her looking for excuses to make it stop, too. I'm still trying to find the happy middle ground here, because I'm often too busy to schedule second dates within a short amount of time. By the time I can, I haven't texted with her enough in the intervening time, and she probably assumes I've forgotten about her or that she's just a Plan B after some other girl bailed (which she's probably not, even if I'm talking to other girls).