Absolutely not. Faith and science can co-exist. But at this point i tend to cover these things in pm's.

I don't remember Santa sending his only son to die and suffer on a cross to open the gates to the North Pole.

I've always believed in God. Through prayers He/She answered those prayers numerous times. Some concerned death.

If I believed this was it..no after life..no God. I wouldn't waste my time on working my way into old age. I would become a master criminal. I would steal, break or kill towards my end goal of money. Because if I had no God to explain myself...WTF. I've done things in my life that warrant me getting locked up as I'm sure some of you have. I stayed one step ahead and would become an enlightened criminal.

I just figure I'll find out when I die. People who go to church seem to need to be told what to do so they may get through life without going berzerk and killing, raping and pillaging everyone else.

A lot of people do that even though they go to church. All of it seems like a bunch of superstitious crap to me though. You have to die to know what comes next. If it turns out to be nothing, then so be it. I won't exist and I won't care. But if not? Who's God is it actually? There are so many different beliefs in the world that I really don't think it's a Christian god. It just seems so idiotic.

Bah.

We're all in the Matrix. I am Neo. Hear me say "whoa".

Well it's generally believed that whatever force might be out there, *is* able to affect our reality. So it could be real, even if it's not tangible to us. Like you said, this planet's greatest scientific minds have been mistaken many times in the past, meaning that their explanations for their perception of reality were wrong. Different people attribute events and states to different things - God, fate, mathematic probability. Not everything can be so easily explained by science, the mind for one thing. Why are you the person you are, where do your thoughts come from and where are they located? Considering this is where perception happens it's a little hard to define existence in physical terms.

im not in the god club. i don't mind others being in the god club. in fact i don't mind others wanting me to join the god club. but i do mind when people feel and act like they are somehow superior to me just cuz they're in a god club.

The first rule of god club is that you do not talk about god club.

heh, teh funneh.

Greatest comment I've read all day.

yeah, but Santa does one hell of a lot for the one day a year he actually works.

sounds good

fire away!

I go to church on most Sunday nights.

just like a concert, you want to feel a part of something with a group that is like-minded.
there's more to it than that, but that's the basic idea.

Actually, one of the things my Philosophy of Religion professor talked to us about was parallels between large religious services and rock concerts. It was one of the most interesting parts of the class. (Which is saying something, 'cause it was a pretty interesting class.)

sounds interesting. (no sarcasm)

what exactly were those parallels?

i wont even discuss this subject anymore.
i'm sick of it.

my boyfriend is Catholic and goes to church every Sunday and went to Catholic school and him and i constantly have little spats here and there over the issue.
we just did this past Friday, and since both him and i wont budge on our views, what's the point in discussing it at all?

YES! This is so true. I noticed it at the last ZWAN cocert. I'm sure I have different conclusions about it then your prof though.

cue: some kind of post modern post about humans not having any ability to uncover intrinsic truth ... or something

I believe in God. For the most part I despise religions. I believe that religion is good when practiced in a sane state but it is never done in such a way. Each religion has a book. Each book lists stories. Each story describes how a righteous life should be lived. Each story describes how you should treat each other. These stories are taken way to literal, and used by people for their own gains and warped for their own selfish reasons.

I believe is a holy spirit that encompasses everything on earth, and everywhere. I believe there is a deeper meaning to everything than we see. I believe in destiny. I do not believe in practiced religion.

Sometimes I get mad at God and give him the finger though.

It drives me insane when people are born into a religon, are taught this religon and never, ever question it.

I think that most people feel that way. I must admit that I tend to look down on those people even though I really shouldn't...

On The Discover Channel in Canada they mentioned that during a "Science of Rock Concert" special. They way people come together, sing-a-long with one another, perform ritualistic behaviors...

I personally have completely ruled out the existance of a God that resembles the one of the three major monotheistic religions. But I still think that there is a force responsible for and omnipresent in reality that can only be refered to as "God".

I can't remember off the top of my head, but I'll grab my notes and look it up later when my roommate's not sleeping.

Oh yea, and especially with the more pentacostal/fanatical christians. They throw their hands around and dance and wave things, and all that. It's just like a rock concert.

I wouldn't discount a major religion though. Take Christianity for example. while men have polluted the teachings and sayings of Jesus of Nazareth and Paul of Tarsus (the founders) the spiritual principles are still very relavant to today. They are very libral and advocate communal living, tolerance of religion:

Luke 18:22
So when Jesus heard these things, He said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

Acts 4:32-35
32 Now the multitude of those who believed were of one heart and one soul; neither did anyone say that any of the things he possessed was his own, but they had all things in common. 33 And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And great grace was upon them all. 34 Nor was there anyone among them who lacked; for all who were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the proceeds of the things that were sold, 35 and laid them at the apostles' feet; and they distributed to each as anyone had need.

Acts 17:22-28
22 Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, "Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; 23 for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: 24 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25 Nor is He worshiped with men's hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being

I am my beginning. I am my end. I am my god.

that best part of the movie 'enough' is when she says "ENOUGH!" and then it kicks in with that song.

The problem occours in the human mind, the human mind exists within
natural physical laws -so it is rational to conclude that the answer must
also exist within the same natural laws which spawned the question!

You don't pass Math by studying English.

As a Buddhist, I believe that human beings can outgrow ignorance and
irrationality and see things as they really are, and craving and aversion can
be replaced by patience and compassion. This is within the grasp of each
person if they are prepared to make the effort.

If you are prepared to just say "God is the Answer to our own Ignorance",
that's fine. Religion does many positive things for people, however,
it isn't the path to the cessation of human ignorance.

p.s. if you don't agree with any of this, that's ok. if belief in God
allows you to live a positive life, you don't have to prove it.

Yup. There's something there. I don't care if you call it god, collective conciousness, some people might call it love. It's so obvious to me, I feel it, something beautiful and powerful and slightly more than we can totally grasp in our day to day life.

If you're talking about being sure that God doesn't exist, then I agree with you, and I think Sagan would too. He never claimed to be 100% atheist. His books are what helped me realize that you can never be completely sure. God can't be disproven, by definition.

But I disagree with the way you said it. I think a person can come to that conclusion - it's just not possible to be sure about it. Example: I've come to the conclusion that Santa Claus doesn't exist, despite the fact that I've never been to the North Pole. I've never seen Santa Claus, but maybe he was visiting the houses of other kids? Afterall, my mom is Jewish. So how do I know that Santa Claus wasn't visiting other houses? Well, I can never be 100% sure, but I very strongly believe that he wasn't, and that he doesn't exist at all. See what I mean?

I feel just as strongly about my disbelief in God. Sagan once said something about how he's never met a true atheist, and he doesn't think they can exist. Because you can never rule out the possibility that God might exist. He often pointed out that "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." However, I still use the term "atheist", when a person believes very strongly that there isn't a God. I don't think knowing should be required for the use of that word. If knowing is required, then nobody can ever be an "atheist" - so why should it even be a word?

I've come to the conclusion that many "things" don't exist - Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, demons, succubi, angels, and so on. These conclusions of mine aren't based on pure evidence, but I still feel very strongly about them. People can feel strongly about things that they can never prove, because beliefs don't always have to be based on evidence. It's sorta like faith, but the other way around. ;)

That's pretty scary. So you only have morals because you fear God? I'm not sure if that should even be considered "morals". It sounds more like you're imitating a moral person, because you're afraid of what might happen otherwise. Don't you think God can tell the difference?

There are plenty of atheists with good morals. So clearly, morals don't have to be dependent on God watching over us. Sometimes you just have to know the difference between right and wrong.

I agree, and I feel the same way about disbelief in God. :)