are germans generally terrified of doing anything because they think hitler's coming back if they have opinions

Just cause you were begging for my opinion on this matter: here it's also very common for uninformed, lower class, right wing voters to scream for castration or death (by all kinds of means) when there are paedoph-isles involved, but it's usually a very uninformed kind of justice those people want. They're getting riled up after having heard something in the media. Personally that kind of thing is always very tiring to me. I mean we have a jurisdiction system for a reason. Everyone should be allowed a fair trial. Maybe that was what cocksure was refering to.

Having said that, of course I think big crimes call for big means of punishment, and some people get away with for instance a short prison time after severe crimes here. Nonetheless, no matter how awful the crime is, I'm never in favour of death penalty. Also, apart from the things he actually did do, the guy just 'conspired', right? I mean that sounds pretty horrible, but you can't put someone in jail for having certain thoughts.

that's all well and good but i don't need some kind of hyperbole about how i'm a neo nazi

i'm sure he didn't mean that, herr führer.

also i don't want to deny them due process

just if they are found to be pederasts can we at least lock them up for life

dude i didnt call you a nazi, i thought you saw through my posting style by now, T

and yep smashingjj, thats what i meant. "death penalty for child molesters" is some of the worst populism (unreflected overreaction) out there

i reflect on everything

just because the child wouldn't have episodic memory of it doesn't mean it wouldn't affect him or her. trust gets established early in life, not to mention physical damage to the child. it is likely the child would have attachment issues at least. i cant believe you wrote these posts.

i can't believe you took them at face value

Huh?

Conspiracy is way beyond having "certain thoughts".

i wasnt going to until he posted that it was worth thinking about

What's a pederast, Walter?

Shut the fuck up, Donny.

i dunno. i'm not convinced. physical damage - sure, that would be pretty bad. but how exactly do you arrive at attachment issues without memory? i really am a little curious because this seems to be at the base of certain psychotherapeutical premises and i wonder what our board shrink would have to say about it

it's a film? about a child molester? and vigilantism? shortly before the nazis took over? i don't get how you cannot see the connection here

it's rider he's not very bright

Cuntsure loves circumcision too

fantastic band. 9.4

Well, as far as attachment theory goes: the first attachment one has is to one's mother, as a general basis. If that mother is attentive, loving, and helpful (etc) and keeps one safe, one learns to trust other people as a basic outlook on life. Otherwise, one doesn't. That's the very basic premise I am assuming you are referring to. Of course that is very simplified.

Think about it this way - how do we arrive at where we do at any time, without memory? At what point did we start to build on, well, everything - our knowledge of this or that, our experiences of love or hate or humiliation or whatever - isn't that all built from before we are consciously aware it is being built?

There are literally thousands of studies that explore attachment. The original study that is most famous (though I forget the details of who did it and whatever) involves the "strange situation" in which infants of like 1 - 2 years are separated from a caregiver and their reactions are observed. I could go into this more but you should probably just read the paper.

And it is those with disorganized attachment who are more likely to grow up to have personality disorders, anxiety disorders, depression, etc etc - in general.

So I cannot specifically say, every child who gets raped at one will have attachment problems. But it is also fair to say someone who goes through that, probably has a higher than likely chance of having other things going on (like i'd find it easy to believe that one of the co-conspirators in this case is a parent or family member). And a child who has disorganized or ambivilant or chaotic attachment has trouble getting pleasure vs anxiety, annoyance, anger, etc from personal relationships.

I am of course not a shrink and this is very basic and I would not pretend to be able to summarize why attachment theory makes sense or that it 100% does always and completely because that is unlikely.

basically kids treated like shit are more likely to feel like shit and treat others like shit and grow up to continue these behaviors, how's that for a summary

even if they dont remember the first time they got treated like shit. because they will learn that the world treats you like shit (because in the formative years your caregivers ARE your whole world), and respond to everyone else as if they will also treat them badly. it's a survival strategy.

I agree a baby (I don't mean a toddler, but a 1 year old baby) is very unlikely to experience rape like older kids or adults. You need a sense of boundaries to feel violated, and as far as I know babies don't have a strong one. Their parents need to do everything for them, from feeding to carrying them around to changing diapers. I imagine the psychological consequences of rape would be the same as any act of extreme violence against the baby - except maybe the baby would associate that pain with specific body parts and people. You don't need to remember what caused you to be afraid of, say, spiders (if there is a specific cause) for you to flinch when you see one. I assume the same is true for other things. I don't remember learning how to walk, but I can walk. I don't remember learning how to speak, but I am indeed capable of producing utterances.

Obviously I'm not claiming abusing 1 year olds is OK if they don't feel pain - by all means, lock up everyone who does that. I'm just saying that (luckily for the victimized babies) they probably wouldn't be more traumatized than a dog or a cat would.

have you ever seen a traumatized cat or dog

i mean by all means they are not people but if they could talk and had higher functioning brains you could certainly tell they are emotionally scarred...?

uh...

I pretty much agree with you and but the idea that sexual abuse is somehow worse than any other kind is kinda a myth imo (having been a victim of sexual, physical, emotional, etc by various people)

That's exactly my point. If a human touches a puppy inappropriately, the puppy won't even know what bodily autonomy is, much less that it's being violated. But if you physically hurt the puppy, it can grow scarily paranoid and violent.

Humans develop a much more sophisticated sense of self, and that's one of the reasons why (non-physically damaging) sexual abuse even exists. We don't know when exactly we develop it, but still, it's really not unreasonable to just tell adults to keep their hands off kids.

I don't think it's always worse. It probably depends on the individual and the severity of the abuse. Sexual abuse is tricky because other than it being abuse, a lot of people treat you like you're damaged goods, and the victim is often taught to blame themselves. What I mean is that as a society we send mixed signals that are themselves very damaging. On the one hand, if you are sexually abused, you are supposed to be a broken person, scarred for life. On the other hand, people obviously don't take it seriously enough, or else they wouldn't facilitate it and support practices that allow it.

In short, I agree with you, but I feel like I have to explain why or else I'm going to accused of saying it's not a big deal that rape happens.

Believe me I understand victim blaming both from myself and others. Maybe I see it a little differently because all of mine were intermingled. But with interpersonal sexual abuse/rape (as in, not a stranger/acquaintance), it is the actual betrayal part of it that - to me - is worse than the actual acts or the stigma of the acts.

No, I know, sorry if I sounded condescending. I knew we were more or less on the same page, so I wasn't explaining it for your benefit. I was just trying to make sure I wouldn't be misunderstood by anyone else.

Oh, did you add in that last sentence a little after the other stuff? Sorry, I missed it. It's all good.

this is actually a bad example because learning how to walk and, say, learning how to use a computer are two pretty different things. as humans we are basically hard-wired to learn how to walk, that's one of the key characteristics of human physiology. and in fact, the same thing can be said about language. see chomsky's language-as-organ theory.

basically i don't believe we are tabulae rasae when we are born but i can't imagine babies have a sense of what's happening to them when they're raped at age one, and if it doesn't hurt (which it probably does) they won't even know that it's wrong

that being said, of cause it is wrong and pretty fucking disturbing too

The language-as-organ theory isn't actually very well supported empirically (so far at least). I think Chomsky's contribution to psychology is more important due to his mentalist approach (vs behaviorism) rather than his specific language theories. Either way, it doesn't much matter what causes us to learn to walk or talk - nature or nurture. It's always a combination of the two. Even if we have a language organ, we still need verbal stimuli, and we still have no memories of how that happened.

If you want another example, I have one single memory of me trying to learn how to ride a bike, but that's all I remember. I can't remember the moment when I learned. I can't remember practicing at all.

Likewise, when a person has certain types of amnesia, they usually know things even when they have no memories. They may not recognize their doctor, but they know what a doctor is. They may not remember they have a car, but they can still drive. I suppose you could still call those "memories", but they aren't what we are usually referring to when we say that we don't keep any memories from when we are babies.

but that's the kind of memory that i had in mind. something that is worked into your development. not sure if babies can do that with such abstract concepts as rape.

the point i tried to make about walking and language is that, under normal conditions (i.e. unless you have some kind of disability or are mowgli), everyone is able and WILL learn how to walk and talk. ability doesn't enter into it. the fact that you need external input isn't that important since, as you said, nurture is a part of "learning" anything. i think riding a bike is a different thing but in the end the boundaries are never quite clear. i just think, as you pointed out earlier, for rape to be understood as something other than just physical pain you need a concept of self, of personal rights, of the responsibility of people around you etc.

according to my gf there has been research to this very topic. there is psychological damage for people that were raped at such an early age. if their parents never told them, at a certain age they often get unstable without knowing how.

really though rairun, dont you think its likely that troskicliosu has raped a baby

if this lost profphets guy wanted to keep things legal he could have gone out with a dude with a micropenis like jonathan monte of monte IT

WAH WAH WAH! :cry:

in my experience, women often start showing symptoms of PTSD "out of the blue" when they have kids, or when their kids become the age they were when they were or started getting abused *disclaimer - anecdotal

Often? How many women do you know who were sexually abused as 1 year old babies? :think:

i've known a few because of being hospitalized in a PTSD program

and many more at any time in their childhood, i'm talking people who were mostly serially abused

most of them, in my experience, have dissociative symptoms chronically but have delayed signs of PTSD until their 30s or 40s

i dont claim to know exactly why but that's what i observed. i first was there at 22 years old and was the youngest, but i had abuse outside the home as a fledgling adult that i never really repressed at all, suppressed yes, but most of these woman have marriages, children, careers before it all falls apart. i never got to that point for whatever reason

and i dont know for sure but i was abused starting at an early age, one i don't know but certainly by three or four