Ha.

i thought the boundary between the church and the state was pretty clear. the infringements of the past don't justify themselves by just existing for a long time, or by having the majority agree with them. government endorsed religion is government endorsed religion, and it shouldn't happen.

i'll admit the whole "under God" thing is really riding the borderline of separation between church and state. but i'd be a lot more willing to let it go if the pledge of allegience was optional, which it should be.

yes, i was totally against that. she shouldn't be driving in a veil and if she wants photo ID, she needs to have an identifiable, accurate photo.

what up page 2

yes, how i silly i am to make my own decisions, based on what i believe and the arguments i hear for and against, and not follow a checklist of leftism! it is very amusing!

Your thoughts and beliefs aren't going to change a single thing. The Judge that ruled this is a fucking idiot. And the media will quiet down soon enough. I'm certain that the pledge will remain worded the same.

Also, if you possessed the ability to think slightly deeper than the surface, you would know that this pledge isn't to
symbol.

This nation was created under the God of the founders. Not Buddha, not Vishnu, and not Islam's Allah. If you are a member of this amazing country, one that had become a powerful nation in much less time than any other, you should feel as though you owe a little gratitude to the people that dreamed and created it so well. If you don't feel this, find somewhere where you do.

just because the founders themselves were christians, we should ignore what they said about religious freedom? i am grateful to them, for bestowing such supposed freedoms upon us. shouldn't i argue for these freedoms to be carried out?

is disagreeing with the government bad now?

No, not paying respect and not devoting yourself to the nation that you are a part of is.

why is nationalism so important?

[quote]Originally posted by Affectation:

Quote:

No, not paying respect and not devoting yourself to the nation that you are a part of is.

Quote:

wtf

okay i didnt want to get involved in this, but youve got to be pretty ignorant to trust and devot yourself to the US government. im all for nationalism, pride, and unity but having all that for the US government is another thing. id be ashamed if i was american.

While I certainly agree that the "under God" ruling was on the border, I see absolutely no way how this ruling doesn't breach the separation of church and state. State-mandated recitation of the words "one nation, under God." The words "under God" in the pledge is theoretical in a lot of ways, but this is concrete.

Jared: For me, personally, I'm cynical enough to realize that lots of things are never going to change and idealistic enough to get pissed off about it. And it's not your place to condemn me or anybody for that. Just because you don't care about the Pledge doesn't mean it's not important; how much more egocentrical can your worldview get? This, even moreso than the "under God" ruling, directly strikes at First Amendment freedoms. Can we change a system that's inherently flawed, corrupt and mechanized beyond repair? No. But if there's enough uproar, maybe something we believe strongly in--the First Amendment rights that make this a good country to begin with and are the basis of all the nationalism and flag-waving you're going to be seeing today--might get, at the very least, examined by some people who were apathetic before. You can't waste your time on everything, no, but right now we're on Netphoria and this is the pressing issue--why not try to debate something like this? As a journalist who's seen First Amendment rights trampled more than once in favor of stories that wouldn't piss some people off (and I'm not even talking the high school environment right now, I'm talking professional newspapers), I think it's damn important to protect all five rights in there (can you even name all of them, Jared?) ... and while I realize I probably can't, at the very least, it's worth a debate.

And Aff: Although it's really not worth it with you since you're trolling half the time anyway, scroll down a few pages and find Julio's topic on Thomas Jefferson's religious opinions. And then look up John Adams' quotes on deism. And things that GW, Madison, Monroe said in private. Your opinion on the Founding Fathers, and indeed, your entire opinion, may change.

Okay you can cut it out now, Affy.

[quote]Originally posted by Affectation:

Quote:

This nation was created under the God of the founders. Not Buddha, not Vishnu, and not Islam's Allah

Quote:

IMPORTANT POINT:

the founders of the US did not give two shits about religions other than ones that believed in christianity; the freedom of religion originally stemmed from being free to practice different versions of christianity whether it be catholicism, puritanism, etc etc etc

muslims, hindus, atheists and people practicing other "religions" were not addressed in the freedom of religion clause of the first amendment

now times have changed; i've spoken with my many atheists (almost all my close friends are atheists) about this ruling and they've all said the same thing; it's ludicrous; saying "under god" does not amount to (in their eyes) a violation of their freedom to worship whatever they want to

i'm offering an original intent argument (aka Conservative Copout) not because i believe it, just to offer a different side of the story

liberalism is blinding some of you kids to the truth; think common sensically

muslims and hindus and atheists practicing relgion and imposing their beliefs on the massive christian majority in the eighteenth century?? no way.

and i know about adams and the other deist/atheist founding fathers; the constitution was written by the people, for the people; the aristocratic politicians of the time don't mean shit

woo prove to me again how smarter you are than i the doltish person

look at me everyone im the idiot wooo lookatme!

no dont look at me look at him hes smart because he doesntlike america oo hes so smart everything is a SCAM!! move while you can peoples everyone's gonna DIE!!!

Why is it that whenever someone has a solid argument against you, you either back down and pretend you never cared anyway, or act like a 10 year old?

Very good point.

because like i said i am an idiot...everybody should bitch about every little thing that annoys them freely and they are all right, america sucks and is so corrupt i cant think of any other countries that are worse than the one we live in

really though...i am sick of the pseudo intellect on this board coming form a bunch of people who dont even support themselves, havent worked a day in their lives,and are in the "i am 18-23 age category so i by default am a hardcore liberal and america is eviiiiiiiil"

shut the fuck up and find something WORTH fighting for

plus i think affectation thinks i really am a 10 year old

I deleted that after you made some good points in your last post.

<3 i have a fat headache, my appologies

So because the majority of the people on this board are still in school, that makes you above them? Maybe part of the reason you're so against these stances is because they're about things that don't actually affect you anymore. The mercenary attitude is what people are railing against.

Does it really affect the people that are still in school? Quite the punishment and inconvenience, isn't it?

That's not the point - it's a change, and it's not a positive one. So people should take a stand against it. That's pretty much it.

please tell me more about myself...

i really like having a non chalant easy going relationship with you and others here like sawdust guy im not arguing anymore because non leftists/liberal views (which are pretty much typical for younger people in college) on here are to the point of evil so no more me having any stance, thanks and god/allah/buddah/satan/creator/nature/nobody/yourself bless

Why are you so afraid to discuss your viewpoint? Nobody with any sense is going to take it personally, it's just a good way of broadening your horizons.

Thanks.

Jared, what would you consider fighting for? I know lots of older folk who are up in arms over the same thing that I am. Does that make them hopelessly stuck in their sophomore year of college, or does that mean *gasp* they think differently? I find it amusing, yet somewhat pathetic, how everybody who is up in arms over something that YOU don't think is important is automatically naive (a massively arrogant, egocentric, shortsighted assumption), or how a leftist like me would automatically dismiss your beliefs because they're different (that's not true; I believe, and there are others on this board who believe, that the core tenet of liberalism is respecting everybody's views, regardless of whether they agree with you or not).

I don't think you're "evil." Or an asshole for that matter. There might be anti-right sentiment on 'Phoria, but I don't have any of that; it's not emnity, just disagreement. And frankly, it's somewhat sad that you're stereotyping anybody who doesn't agree with you into the "naive college kid" category. I will admit there might be a certain element of truth to it--I'm not disingenuous enough to deny it--but such a blanket statement is still fucking ridiculous. It's also ironic, too; you accuse those who disagree with you of being kids and then you resort to the stereotypical name-calling. Saying things like that, to me, says you live in a bubble--not everybody who has a job and supports themselves thinks like you. A little less than half the country describes itself as "liberal"; are all of those kids really 20-year-olds in disguise?

Seriously--if you want to have an intelligent conversation about this, I'm all for it. Otherwise, quit posting about how chill you are and how you want to just be laid-back over this stuff. That's not only an insulting insinuation that your way is the only way. It's also a copout, and you're not as high-and-mighty as you might otherwise think.

[This message has been edited by sawdust restaurants (edited 07-04-2002).]

[This message has been edited by sawdust restaurants (edited 07-04-2002).]

Exactly. It's a negative change that is, no matter how subtly and slowly, taking away a small bit of our religious freedom. People must make a stand so it doesn't take another step in the wrong direction. Apathy will get the best of us if we don't do anything about it.

I know I'm 17 and inexperienced as far as the 'real world' is concerned. I have never had a job and have been dependant on the income of my parents my entire life. That's embarassing to say, but I admit it. Despite that, I think I am well versed in my rights as an American citizen, and one of those rights is to be free from any imposition of any state endorsed religion. "Under God" may be a vague phrase since one can have no idea what God is being referred to, be it Allah, Vishnu, Jesus or Ra, but it is still a religious reference to a higher power and it is state endorsed.

Yes, I could easily brush it off and 'deal with it', but if I remained apathetic to the issue just for the sake of ease, Christians would find a way of sqeezing their agenda into the government in an attempt to make this a Christian nation by mandate. I admit, that sounds outlandish, but it is a very strong possibility in my eyes.