Sorry, I didn't get the analogy whatsoever.

Better luck next time.

Similar to when minorities get uncomfortable when the majority exerts and supports its culture; i.e. displaying the Confederate Flag. Both could be classified under 'racism'.

Chris Carter
carter@tamu.edu

Hey, you know what? I mostly agree with you. I haven't touched this issue because it's really a spin off of the issue at hand. Minorities have some serious problems in their communities, I'm not gonna deny that. We're in dire need of a Martin Luther King. Jesse Jackson used to be a decent civil rights leader, now he's a media whore. But on the subject of reperation and minorities "bitching" about being oppressed...NEWSFLASH: oppression still goes on but in more subtle ways as Smack Me In My Mouth already pointed out. And it's not just the clothes you wear I'm talking about, it's the general attitude toward minorities in this country. You can't ignore 200 years of oppression. Things like slavery, segregation, a type of indentured servitude (which is basically what happens to poor immigrants) done to certain minorities? It has placed them at the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder and they we're never able to climb it until the 60's when this country decided to get serious about civil rights. But by then, it's already been too late. Projects, ghettos, barrios were already numerous and the general consensus of minorities living there is that crime rules, schools are dilapidated, they have no where to go, so why bother? It's a struggle to get out of communities like that because mainstream America often ignores and frowns upon these areas. Places like that still exist desptie the progress we've made. Nice little comment about me you made there that, only half the story, eventually had nothing to do with the argument at hand. I've already been assimilated into mainstream America (surbuban house, parents' six digit salary) if that's what you're getting at http://www.netphoria.org/wwwboard/tongue.gif

My point is, throughout our fucked up treatment of certain races throughout history, an effect has occured where groups of people have been conditioned to fail and only recently have we been trying to shake these conditions off. Some reparations have to be made to balance thes things out.

And if it means anything, I oppose affirmative action. :shrug:

Eh, not really. You can associate southern heritage with the Confederate Flag. You can also associate slavery and oppression with it, which is something you can't do with a sombrero or a Dashiki.

So your saying Black Entertainment Television can not be interpreted as promoting segregation? Or Puffy doing a benefit concert that excludes non-blacks as segregation?

Chris Carter
carter@tamu.edu

Allow me to add my 2 cents.

There is racism in America. It's kind of hard to ignore when you've got white guys running around waving confederate flags and talking about "lynchin' us some niggers". But, racism is not something that comes solely from white people. It's a problem that exists in the hearts and minds of all people of all cultures and unfortunately, will probably never completely go away.

I don't believe we need a Black History Month. If people don't think there's enough in our history books about non-whites, then they should petition to get more put in. What shouldn't happen is that out of a history book that's 600 pages, it's evenly divided up based upon race.

Affirmitive Action? I don't believe in it. It just allows people that could possibly not be as qualified to get into a job based on their race.

BET? I wish they would call it by a different name. Calling it BLACK (hey, what happened to AFRICAN AMERICAN?) Entertainment Television just opens the door for more racism. They should just change the name to WB http://www.netphoria.org/wwwboard/wink.gif

Speaking of "African American", I don't like the term. You can say I'm not PC, but if I'm not gonna call a white guy European American, you can be sure I'm not gonna call a black guy African American. To French people, we are Americans... but what are their own people to themselves? Do they call themselves French, or are they like us when we use the terms "black" and "white"?

I'm not saying that we should forget what's happened in the past (you know that quote, "those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it"), but the issue shouldn't be brought up as an excuse to get things in someone's favor.

Anyway... we're all a part of a race that's more important than "white", "black", "brown" or "green"... and as cheesy as it sounds... it's called the human race.



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http://raversaregay.homestead.com/files/USA.gif
You are such a pack donkey

Ooh, ooh, intelligent discussion on Netphoria! (Sorry, had to be said.) Not that I'm really going to contribute anything intelligent, mostly because a lot of what I would want to say has already been quite eloquently covered by Julio, Ian, et al. Just wanted to throw out a concept called "White Privilege", a term I haven't seen mentioned yet, although a lot of people have been talking about it.

There's a great article on it here, which almost none of you will read (but it's really short, I promise!)...But the basic idea is that white people in our culture have some (okay, lots of) generally unstated privileges and advantages conferred upon them, simply by virtue of our being white in a white-dominated culture. They're the kind of things that have probably never even occured to you, because they're so ingrained as to be invisble. For example (from the article):

"

[*]I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed. [*]I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented. [*]When I am told about our national heritage or about "civilization," I am shown that people of my color made it what it is. [*]I can go into a music shop and count on finding the music of my race represented, into a supermarket and find the staple foods which fit with my cultural traditions, into a hairdresser's shop and find someone who can cut my hair. [*]I can swear, or dress in second hand clothes, or not answer letters, without having people attribute these choices to the bad morals,the poverty, or the illiteracy of my race. [*]I am never asked to speak for all the people of my racial group. [*]I can choose blemish cover or bandages in flesh color and have them more or less match my skin.[/list]"

I know people are going to claim some of these things are insignificant, but the point is the greater trend they illustrate: that in our culture, White is considered the default, while everything else is a deviation from the norm. Racism and inequality do still exist in our culture. However, rather than the overt "Let's lynch us some o' dem niggers" attitude that today's enlightened liberals associate with "racists", racism is a subtle and hugely pervasive underpinning of the entire American cultural system. In fact, it's so well and deeply ingrained as to be pretty much invisible, unless you're specifically looking for it. Or you're not white.

Because racism has been so institutionalized as to be invisible, it's easy to get away with "I'm not a racist, some of my best friends are Black!" Over the past thirty years, America has worked very hard to make racism eminently easy for you to ignore. But that doesn't mean it no longer exists, or that your Black best friends don't have to deal with it every day of their lives.

You don't have to be a "racist" to perpetuate racism. All you have to do is be White. If you're White, you get White Privilege. We don't have to ask for it, or even know we have it, it's still there, and its mere existence perpetuates inequality. I know that's going to piss a lot of people off, but look at it this way: I'm not trying to intimate that you're necessarily a racist simply because you're White. I'm trying to point out that the system is using you as a tool, very effectively, without your knowledge, and (at least, I'd hope, in most cases) against your will, to perpetuate oppression. I don't know about you, but I'm pretty pissed about that.

The thing is, the way for White people to perpetuate less oppression in our culture is for us to 1) be aware of our privilege and 2) work to give some of it up. And it's hard. Society won't ever let us give all of it up, at least not as individuals, because society is a great, big, mean, brute who carries a giant spikey club called Social Control, and it's not happy about the idea of its pawns growing brains, especially brains that want it to do something differently. In fact, for every little bit you give up, you're probably going to get clubbed on the head in some respect. It's really a lot more convenient to just eat your privilege up like good boys and girls, and not worry your pretty little heads about it. After all, one of those privileges is the privilege to believe "Racism is a thing of the past."

But non-white people don't have that luxury. You don't have to care about that, but if you do, you have a responsibility to do something about it. Start small. For example, I'm starting by spewing intellectual bullshit at a primarily white audience, most of whom stopped reading this long long ago, protected by the anonymity of a keyboard and screen. It's not much, it's certainly not enough, but it's a start.

You could start even smaller, by simply being aware that racism isn't being perpetuated by the fact that Puffy's hosting a benefit for Black 911 survivors, it's being perpetuated by the fact that N'Sync is *not*.

And now, having fulfilled my monthly quota of sixteen and a half pages of incessant rambling, please allow me to trip ungracefully from my soapbox, and disappear into the corner for another six weeks. http://www.netphoria.org/wwwboard/smile.gif

< /52 cents >

endangered cultures is as much a problem in our world, if not more, than endangered species. The world is becoming a mono-culture. thanks america. for which you hold most the blame.

*awaits flaming*

Huzzah for Globalization.

americanization

A totally agree...and I really think it's bullshit how people here automatically throw insults at you when they don't agree... calling someone an "ignorant fuck" just because they see things differently that you do, isn't really mature.

i'm not a racist...but i do believe that many minorities are.

As I've said before, I'm Irish... I wouldn't show up to an interview in a kilt anymore than a black person would show up in traditional african garbs... we all have cultural differences... but we keep them for the most part, at home.

You don't see people of German decent walking around in liederhosens...you don't see Dutch people walking around in wooden shoes... why? Because there are times and places for that. This is not a black-white issue. This is an everyone issue.

But I'm not talking about how people dress. I'm talking about how in all of our strides for equality, we've made people even more separated. I mean, seriously... people are so bent on fucking political correctness that this conversation itself is offensive and taboo, even though the only intention is to have a discussion about something.

Some people should lighten up... I've never seen and Asian person bitching about their "opression" and saying that they're excluded from America because Fridays doesn't offer chopsticks. So...why should black people bitch about how the fucking "gap" is marketing to them to make them more "white"? that is pure bullshit.

I know that in some parts of the country, racism still exists... but not here, not where I live...and I find it offensive to my culture, that holidays and months and concerts are given in the name of minorities, just because their skin tone is darker than mine.

When I applied to NYU... they had a "minority orientation" in central park, 2 weeks after the "prospective student orientation"... why? are black students better? do they really need a special day just for them?

It's fucking skin color, get over it.

This isn't even about culture...its about skin color... It also pisses me off how when I filled out my college aplications, I had to check a race... and there was no box for my race. Sure, they had "African American" with 50 sub-boxes to check off exactly where in Africa your line comes from... and they had "Hispanic" from 30 different countries...

But all they had for me...was a little box that said WHITE Well, that is insulting to MY fucking culture. I'm Irish/Italian/French/Spanish...well, where was my fucking "European Descent" box?

That's not equality anymore.

I don't have a problem with culture, again, I don't care how you dress... I care how this world is making it harder to be white. If all minorites wanted was equality, why isn't there? Why is it that when a white person has a problem, it's always "Rich white bastards"

Why is it assumed that the only people who care about these issues are wealthy? I do not look down on anyone, black, white, asian...I don't care. I see people as people. It's that simple.

But that doesn't change the way I think. and I'm sure you've all read what I think.

Go ahead, call me an asshole...you just don't fucking get it...because you're too dense even to understand another persons outlook.

*jenn*

i agree...thank you.

yes i agree... and i would probably get flamed less if i said it the way you do.

it wouldn't matter if I was african, or 100% spanish... i wouldn't segregate myself from the rest of society...and i would still count all americans (regardless of race) "my people"

*claps* exactly...fucking exactly.

again, i agree...

and what Julio said about how minorites should have some reparations due to 200 years of injustice.

my boyfriend is JEWISH...try over 2000 years of opression, and I don't see him complaining, or asking for a Jewish History Month...or money from the governement...or any special treatment.

Nor do I see any Jews complaining like that. Blacks had it bad, they were forced into slave labor and taken away from their families and beaten...

Jews had all that, along with the duty of throwing the bodies of their loved ones into ovens... and smelling their corpses... and this was 50 years ago, not 200...

give it a break...if anyone has the right to feel slighted by modern society, it's the Jews... and they, for the most part...ask for nothing.



[This message has been edited by melancholia (edited 02-04-2002).]

did you read what i said? it's not tilting things in one race's favor. it's not hiring less qualified candidates. there are stigma for just being a minority when it comes to evaluation.

listen, a book you might want to read is "why are all the black kids sitting together in the cafeteria?"

i had to read it before i came to college, and i almost burned the damn thing, because it pissed me off so much when i started it. i pretty much thought the same way a lot of the people i'm currently arguing against thought.

but if you're level-headed enough to finish it, you'll find that there's a lot of important points. i wish i had it with me, so i could toss a few quotes your way.

who wrote it?

i forget, lemme check amazon.com

beverly tatum. she's a bit too radical for me at times, but a lot of what she wrote in that book really gives a great view on racism.

If I throw insults, it's because I was offended by your "opinion."

It would help yourself if you just said there are racists everywhere, instead of singling out minorities.


I made the point about clothing as being symbolic of cultural pride and how it's entitled to everyone, not just minorities. When the hell did I mention people wearing traditional garments to work, school, etc.?

This is so beside the point I am not even going to comment on it.

Yeah, I just sent the ACLU after you. So watch out!

Man, oh man. Stop complaining about something that doesn't exist. Asians go to Fridays and they don't complain that there are no chopsticks. You know what else? Blacks don't go to the Gap and complain that they don't sell any FUBU gear. Go re-read Ian's post about clothing if you still haven't figured out why the Gap/Gucci, etc. can be seen as a disenfranchisement of cultures.


Oh please. You live in NYC, right? Just because there are many ethnicities present doesn't mean it's some kind racial equality haven. Are you fucking blind and don't notice the socioeconomic divisions in your perfect lil' metropolis? The race issue is tied in to that. You seem to be arguing on the basis that America is some kind of racial utopia which isn't even worth discussing.

THE REASON WHY THERE ARE CONCERTS, FUNDS, HOLIDAYS, ORIENTATIONS, ETC. EXCLUSIVELY FOR MINORITIES IS NOT TO "SEGREGATE" THEMSELVES FROM SOCIETY OR TO SMITE WHITEY. RE-READ MY REPLY TO BLACK JELLIE BEAN.

*sigh* And there's lots of baggage that comes with it, dear.

lol

30 different countries? I have never came across anything like that and I've filled many applications to various colleges. Usually they use that for statistical purposes anyway. You're beginning to exaggerate things; you're really irked by this issue aren't you? And you can't help but place a little of that anger on minorities, huh? Hm, I sense a little...racism? :x


Once again, they put these things usually for statistical purpose. Minorities get a little more representation (a little, okay? not the exaggeration you're making) because we understand less about minorities and need to make more detailed analyses of them.

That's just a fucking survey!


Bam! You finally admitted it! The world would be so much better if everyone acted white! If you don't see anything racist about that statement, then it's truly hopeless to get my point across to you.

Okay, now you're just stereotyping minorities. Isn't a large majority of affluent people white anyway?


Good for you. A large number of minorities share the same view and agree with you. You tend to forget that.

I'm not going to try to understand your "opinion," because I already do. You made your point clearly. I live in the most multicultural city in the the most multicultural state in the most multicultural country. I come across people who share your views everyday, so don't start with this dense bullshit. If any one here is dense, it's you, for not even attempting to see my logic. And I seriously doubt you read any of the counterarguments to your opinion in this thread because you keep rehashing old ideas.

[This message has been edited by Mayfuck (edited 02-05-2002).]

best thread ever.

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www.nevercrashnow.com

Oh, hey, it's this post again.

I see Julio, that crafty Latino, is once again persecuting the White Man. Give it up, man--melancholia has proved without a doubt that we have universal acceptance and "tolerance" in our society. I mean, why else would we have to check boxes when we apply to college? It's almost a shame. I miss the old status quo already.

http://www.warriors4jah.com/images/p...ction/img2.jpg

It has been officially verified by Julio that meloncholia is a dumbshit.

Do you even know what it's like for life to be 'hard'? I mean, something worse than having the Banana Republic running out of Khakis in your size. Has anyone in your family been enslaved? Have you ever been oppressed by people simply because of your race? Have you ever been grossly stereotyped to the point where people won't trust you or give your proper wages? Have you ever been turned down for a job because of the color of your skin? Until any of these things happen on a regular basis, shut the fuck up about how life is becoming oh so hard because you are caucasian.

I don't want to get into some big debate here, but before you say that with any ounce of sincerity, it may be a reality that isn't that far away. This is just food for thought, so please do not take it as arguing one way or the other...

According to United Nations statistics, the current birth and death rate of people of European descent in America compared to the birth and death rate of minorities is so overmatched by the latter that by sometime in the next 20-30 years people of European descent will be passed up by the minorities that exist now. It's not just the birth rate, though. The overwhelming immigration plays a big part, too, especially when several million or so of those are illegals.

So, realistically, if birth rates don't change, and our immigration policy remains so ragged, American will no longer have people of European descent as a majority sometime around 2035.

I don't take issue with any of this, it just seemed like something that might spark more discussion--as I think those who even see this as worrisome have only domestic policy and poor border control to blame, but it's something worth noting.



[This message has been edited by tweedyburd (edited 02-05-2002).]

******... i'm not caucasian... my grandfather was spanish (not as in Spain) as in Puerto Rico. My mothers last name is Aguilo'... her side of the family speaks Spanish...

and by saying "understand what i'm trying to say" doesn't fucking mean to agree with me... but you don't have to act like a prick when I don't agree with your opinion.

Yes, I do live in a place where racism is pretty rare. I'm not saying that there is no racism...I'm saying that it's pretty rare.

Colleges ask about race because they want to ensure that their college doesn't get called racist when they don't allow the "right" percentage of minorities in. Same thing in the fucking workplace... if you hire a white guy over a minority...they'll fucking sue. regardless of who was more qualified.

it happens everywhere. a guy is speeding, he gets pulled over...if he's white, that's OK...if he's black...it's racial profiling. give me a break... i hear about this shit all the time...

History and society should not be dictated by what you look like, it should be dictated by what you contribute.

Minorites are in history books... everywhere... just open your eyes and look.

Every single group has been discriminated against... Catholics, Protestants, Pagans, Jews, Irish, Italian, Spanish, French, German, Blacks.

...but why is it only some groups who complain about it? my grandmother has told me fucking stories about how she wasn't allowed to go to the catholic school just because she was Italian... she's not screaming about her "oppression".

I feel lucky that I was born looking "whiter" than my grandfather, maybe I've avoided all the "oppression" that you claim that you have... but i know of lots of people who agree with me... and they're not all white.

200 years of oppression is NOTHING compared to what the Jews had (2000 years) 200 years of oppression is NOTHING compared to what the Native Americans endured... and these groups don't ask for special treatment...

Neither does the "white" majority...which is really just a mix of other cultures. It's not us-against-them...

Those "ghettos" you speak of Julio, have been inhabited by countless generations of "white" people, Jews have lived in ghettos too...except they were shot in theirs.

What the hell is wrong with "mainstream america"? why do you have to resist so fucking much? Every other culture has gotten used to what you need to do to succeed in this country.

You don't need reparations...everyone has gotten some crap in their lives... you don't need anymore than any other cultural group

BET and non-black concerts *is* promoting segregation...if you want it to stop...stop it yourself.

******... just because you don't agree, doesn't mean that you have to act like a prick about it...seriously.

by the way Julio, you're way cooler on AIM.

heres a clue, go tell someone who gives a fuck.

I'm not going to try to argue with you anymore, Jenn. You've made it clear by regurgitating the same thing you posted on the first page that you don't care to refute or acknowledge points I made in this thread and that you have no inclination to absolve your ignorance

I'm cool when I talk to you on AIM, but I'm no longer cool when I disagree with you. Dense? Netphoria, you make the call!

[This message has been edited by Mayfuck (edited 02-05-2002).]

Hands down the best quote in this thread.

"even though i had to kick his ass a few times cause he had a penchant fro getting drunk and smacking his wife, he was good people"