I dunno, I consider it murder, therefore a sin...

But then I also believe, it's a woman's body, she can do with it what she wants.

So if a woman wants to go to hell, it's her choice. *shrug*

Aw, how sweet. http://www.netphoria.org/wwwboard/biggrin.gif



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Boot the grime of this world in the crotch, dear.

http://www.netphoria.org/wwwboard/biggrin.gif

Church and state are to remain seperate. To make laws based on what a religion should think other people's morals are is unconstitutional.

There was a debate in my English class about this. The prolifers in my class argued this:

Them: If you had a puppy, and you didn't want it anymore, would you kill it or give it away?
Me: I'd give it away, of course.
Them: So what makes you think the life of a puppy is of any more value than an unborn baby?
Me: You hunt, right?
Them: Yes, I do.
Me: So, what makes you think that the life of an elk is of any less value than that of a puppy, or an unborn baby?
Them: That's a different thing entirely!
Me: Why?
Them: Because we only shoot the male ones, and we eat it.
Me: ... So, by your logic, eating the aborted fetus makes abortion ok?

*bell rings. They leave*

I'm going to try to assume that all prolifers aren't this stupid.

Hahaha, you kick ass.. you're definitely one of the guys I would have hung out with if I were still in high school.

By the way, if that was in response to my "murder is a sin" comment, I was pointing out that I think it should still be the woman's choice... I agree, religion should be seperate. Just because I think it's wrong doesn't mean it's not ok to someone else.

After all, there's still that big debate on when life begins. Some people believe it's when the cells begin to divide, some believe it begins when the baby comes out of the womb. It's impossible to judge.

[This message has been edited by BeautifulLoser (edited 01-12-2002).]

My grandmother (who is a republican, much to my surprise because of her leftist views) had a really good idea for regulating abortion. I can't quite remember what she said, but it was really interesting. I'll try to get it from her and pass it onto you guys sometime soon.

This is the main issue at hand, and anyone who doesn't know anything about what goes on in the womb shouldn't talk about it and act like their opinion is valid.

The way I see it, if the fetus cannot survive outside of the womb, it is not alive. If it can come out and still survive, then it is alive. If it can't, it isn't. That just my uneducated opinion.

That makes sense. I still think it's wrong to kill a child that's in your body, even if it can't live on it's own.

[This message has been edited by BeautifulLoser (edited 01-12-2002).]

murder is murder no matter how you look at it.

so they can just kill of something they caused in the first place? they have no right to murder a child that they produced. no one forced them to do it.

regardless of what religion you believe in, murder is murder. you can't get away murdering an adult, so why should an innocent baby be killed off just because its parents think they can't raise it.

[This message has been edited by Flebath (edited 01-12-2002).]

I'd like to see some definitions of the word "murder" before I take my stand.

1 : the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought

from http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary

But abortion is legal. Therefore, it's not "unlawful", so you've no legs to stand on.

[This message has been edited by Smack Me In My Mouth (edited 01-12-2002).]

It's true though, before abortions were legal, women would shove coat hangers in their vaginas, or have doctors perform illegal abortions which were often done with dirty equipment, or done completely wrong, and the women themselves would end up dying.

I want to throw in something else:

People who have troubles with getting children sometimes use IVF. With IVF (in vitro fertilisation) about 20 eggcells are taken and fertilized. So those are living embroys. One of those (the best one) gets implanted, the other ones are thrown away.(until some years ago, in some countries these embryos are used in stemcell research.) They are created just to be sure to get an ok embryo.

Why is IVF widely accepted, and abortion not?

Un "unborn baby" isn't even a baby until a certain point in development. Why isn't it ok to get an abortion before then?

exactly. The whole debate centres around what each person feels is a human being. if we all agree that killing humans is wrong, and agree that a fetus is a human, then there is no way to justify abortion. if we agree that a fetus isn't a human being, then there's nothing wrong with abortion cause your're just getting rid of unwanted cells like a haircut or something.
So, it all comes down to what makes a bunch of cells a human. i don't follow your idea ******, because i personally was born 5 weeks before i was due. kids born before the 9 months can still survive, so it seems like a bit of a technicality to call the line at "when the umbilical cord is cut"

my personal definition is it becomes a human when brain waves first appear. though everyone else has their own definition i suppose.




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how'd this world get so fucking fun, all of a sudden?

I think that saying men can't have an opinion on abortion is like saying women can't have an opinon on how moral war is. after all, men are 99.99% of the soldiers world wide, so women should just forget their opinions on it.
if a man thinks abortion is murder, it probably affects them. so yeah, men can have an opinion on abortion.

what an arrogant post. look, i'm very republican, and i do not support abortion, and i'll give you a damn good reason... when at any time human life is made it is life reguardless of the circumstances. from that point on we have the right to choose right from wrong. when someone chooses wrong, they have to live with the consequences and sometimes the consequence is the death penalty.

brit

your trying to twist things around. abortion should not be legal in the first place because it is killing someone.

Define "Kill"

No, define "someone".

When it's just an embryo, is it a person? Yes, it could develop into a person, but that's a huge fucking difference.

i would define it as taking a life.

its really a big debate when it comes down to that. I believe life begins at conception. I think human life is present throughout the entire progression of conception to adulthood. Any break at any point terminates the human life.

What's all this talk about life? Fucking bacteria is life. Boy, am I gonna catch it for this one.

If I was feeling more energetic right now, I could go for hours, but I'm not, so, bye.


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Boot the grime of this world in the crotch, dear.

Ah yes, the slaughter of the innocent. It is a terrible crime. Yet, what what pleases me the most is, the women that have abortions never go unpunished. Guilt and depression devours most of them and they have nothing to look foward to except burning in Hell. For the ones that are completely heartless, they will get what's coming to them in one way or another.

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Pestis eram vivus-moriens tua mors ero. -Martin Luther (not the King)

Nil sapientia odiosius acumine nimio. -Seneca

We only care about it because it's human. It's ridiculous in a way. We have no remorse when we kill animals for no real reason (yeah we eat them so? we don't have to). I think a cow for example fully developed is more a person then a fetus not even developed yet. But nobody cares that they die in millions killed by humans everyday, even i don't. I don't care about fetus being killed also though.

This was one of the questions I asked as a little kid, then I realized how futile it was to tell my peers not to step on ants. I gave in and adopted the thought that human life was of more value than all other kinds. I'm weak.

I still think that abortions can be performed until a certain point where the baby can survive outside the mother's womb. Up until then, it is a parasite.

vesectimies (sp?) for everyone.

I think this is the most arrogant sentiment to yet manifest itself in this discussion. You're telling me that you think this country should dictate its laws around your beliefs. If I believed that pants were an abomination in the eyes of my God and lobbied to have them outlawed, you would fucking laugh at me, which is what I'm doing at you right now.

If you think abortion is murder, super. If you believe it's a sin, then that's just fine--don't get one. But don't try to curtail everyone else's freedom on the basis of your personal dogma. There's no room for fascist thought in the Constitution.

Do you masturbate? Do you feel guilty when you waste sperm because each one is a potential life that will never be? Saying life begins at the point of conception, when the baby is a single cell is a very extreme view to take, like saying a baby is not a human until the second it is born. Of course you're allowed your opinions, and that's fine. But why should people kowtow to your personal opinion on the matter? There are many situations where an abortion is the least destructive option in the circumstances, and your 'oh no you conceived it last night, it's too late now' posturing has no place in determining other people's destinies.

And 74.67% of all statistics are made up.

Edit: Another reason that example is crap: Even if 99.99% of soldiers were male, there's still that .01% that are female, therefore they can have an opinion.

Not saying I wasn't taking your side, because I believe that men can have a dead set opinion, I'm just pointing out that that really wasn't a good example.

[This message has been edited by BeautifulLoser (edited 01-13-2002).]

I want you to go back and show me one example of me discussing religion in my posts. Regardless of what you believe murder is considered murder. You attacked me without even reading any of my other posts is all I can figure out. Abortion is murder no matter how you look at. People like you have convinced themselves its not so you can feel better about yourself. My main argument is that it should not be legal and should not be such an easy option for people to wash their hands clean of something they caused in the first place.

So people should be allowed to just kill something they caused because it will affect their destiny. Please explain more.... So what if your neighbor gets on your nerves and somehow affects your way of living. According to you, it will ruin your destiny so I guess you should go next door and kill the neighbor. That would take care of the situation wouldn't it. Oh wait... that is taking another human life and is considered illegal. Abortion is no different. Our country has twisted it around to convince people that their is nothing wrong with it. It doesn't make sense.

did any of the pro-life people read the thing i threw in?

No, I said your opinion has no place in deciding a course of action - if you can't see the difference between a clear-cut case of murder and something that requires philosophical debate to even begin to define it, then you really don't have any place deciding what other people should do. Abortion is definitely something which shouldn't be entered into lightly, especially further into the pregnancy, and should be considered a last resort after other courses of action have been fully considered. But in some cases it is the best - or only - option. What if the pregnancy poses a serious risk to the mother's life? What if she is unable to support herself during the pregnancy? What if the woman was raped, and it is believed that having the baby will cause her very serious psychological damage? Can you really say that in every single case imaginable, an abortion at any point (which includes procedures withing the first few weeks) would be absolutely unacceptable? Because that's exactly what you're doing.

Taking a human life is no different no matter how you look at it.

Another post that already covers that


[This message has been edited by Flebath (edited 01-13-2002).]