I like machina a lot, i like zeitgeist a lot. i'm not going to compare the two. i'm not going to compare any smashing pumpkins albums to each other. each work is completely different. they sound changes for each one. that's why they are unique in terms of musicians.

I agree. Bob Dylan is one of my favorite artists but he had some fucking awful albums in his career. Now he's putting out some solid albums again.

I believe in billy corgan and follow his career very closely. It usually pays off very well for me but I believe that Zeitgeist is a bit of a lower point in his overall body of work.


Also it should be noted that Corgan has yet to put out anything as bad as bob dylan's Empire Burlesque. And bob dylan a far better songwriter than corgan.

I mean it's not that it isn't a good album.
It's definitely good.

It just hasn't all clicked for me yet.

Since Zeitgeist has leaked, I've gone back and listened to Machina. I think the very existence of Zeitgeist helps put a lot of perspective on the first batch of SP albums. I didn't like Machina very much at all before, but now I'm finding myself enjoying some of the more esoteric tracks like GATGC and CTOM. I guess I was always disappointed that Billy decided to end SP's recording career on such a strange note. Now Machina seems like a nice little side-story to the rock that is the rest of the SP catalog.

zeitgeist has lowered our standards, so we can all finally enjoy machina now.

just kidding, machina is great

machina certainly has it problems but the high points(Ex Wound) are way better than almost anything on Zeitgeist.

glass > paris hilton

Why do so many people hate Machina? What is it about the album that people don't like? Machina is one of my favorite albums of all time. I just love the feel/mood/atmosphere of the whole thing.

because "people still don't get it" - Billy Corgan

there is only 1 truely rocking song.
The guitars sound like SSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHH
They hate the Glass story
There is barely any guitar solos.
Not as emotional as past releases.


that's generally the list of complaints.

While I may agree with many of them I still think it's an amazing album.

God, you people whine.

The guitar intro to Glass and the Ghost Children is gold. Gold, you whiner!

Same goes with the e-bow in SIYL.

Fuck yeah. Glass and the Ghost Children is phenomenal all around.

paris hilton's solo>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>zeitgeist

yeah, but on Netphoria that means it blows Adore and Machina straight outta this bitch

There is a certain barrenism to this album which I have noticed. There is emotion, but it's hard to read it because it's masked or sounds cheesy. I still stand by my opinion that this album will sell fairly well and another will emerge that will be more down to earth Billy. There is definitely some arbitrary formula going on with this album, it retains past Pumpkins but mixes it with pop characteristics like that of Billy's solo album/zwan. It comes off sounding a bit basic, but there is depth here. I think it's a good album, but I think it is a bit out of touch and forced (not all of it though).

There's nothing uncreative about this album. United States doesn't get heavy? Nor does DC, Tarantula, or 7 Shades? Is your hearing aid turned up Grandpa?

Neverlost is not touching? And how can you possibly say that a song like "Thats the way my LOVE is" is not touching? That's as touching as a song can get.

Have you listened to the album yet?

Guys, Machina blows.

Get the wax out of your ears.

SIYL is one of my top 5 favorite pumpkins songs.. That song alone makes me drag my Machina disc out for a listen.. The rest of the album is ok.. but I definately agree it is the worst of all the pumpkins albums.. but that doesn't mean it blows.. :erm:

To me, Machina is a mixed bag. There's some great tracks, some okay tracks, and tracks that just straight up blow. Zeitgeist is a whole 'nother bag of blow, with a few tolerable and even likable songs thrown in the mix. But I did laugh at the person who said Zeitgeist has lowered our standards enough that we can now enjoy Machina!

I'm "Generally pleased". The only song I feel like skipping is (Come on) Let's go.

I've been trying to figure out why I'm loving this record so much, and something you touched on I think sheds some light on it. A lot of people seem to be disenchanted with the record because it comes off as pop rock-ish, and think that the only way that could come about is some kind of cynical calculation on Billy's part. I think people tend to forget that the main thrust of the Pumpkins' success came on making radio-friendly "pop" rock songs. That's certainly what drew me to the band and made me fall in love with them in the first place. I certainly enjoyed the more adventuresome stuff too, but it still at least had one foot in that familiar rock dynamic that obviously came naturally to the band.

Once Adore came along, it seemed to me that the band had abandoned that dynamic just for the sake of it. Style over substance. The songwriting remained up to par, but a lot of the songs suffered once forced into the new sound...and it seemed there was no real reason for it other than some strange desire to blaze new sonic trails. Obviously that sort of thing appeals to a lot of people here, but as an 18 year old kid who had versed himself in the rocking goodness of Gish, SD, PI, TAFH, and MCIS, it was disappointing to me. Not only were great songs being unnecessarily forced into a sound that IMO didn't best suit them, but other songs were being shelved altogether (Cash Car Star, LMGTWTY), ostensibly just because they were too reminiscent of the past "radio-friendly" sound. And the same sort of thing happened on every album after that all the way up to TFE. To me that was what was forced and arbitrary.

Enter Zeitgeist, and suddenly the songs are allowed to stand on their own again, not terribly overshadowed by an undue focus on the sound. It feels right and natural to me. I don't sense anything forced in it at all. Maybe its not all that adventurous or avant garde, but it sounds like the stuff that drew me into the Pumpkins in the first place. This is the first album the guy has put out in my 10 years of being a fan that has not only met, but completely exceeded my expectations. If Billy really made a concerted and arbitrary effort to make this record easily digestable and poppy in a cynical effort to bring back fans, then at the very least he calculated correctly for once.

So 73% of Netphoria is either "generally pleased" or "loving it, great album."

I would say Z is a complete success, because if even in the negative world of NetPh an overwhelming majority of the people like/love the album, it must be pretty damn tremendous.

I love the album. It's not Siamese Dream, MCIS, or Gish, but who cares?! It's a different album and you have to appreciate it in a different mode. I can really get into it!

Exactly! That's just it. If you are disappointed with the album because it's not Gish, for example, then go listen to Gish and quit bitching about Z.

I'm with you Corganist. I love the cynical undertones. The smartest move Billy could have done, was create an easily accessible album to bring back attention from the fans who've lost touch since Zwan and his solo run. Then they can really bring the rock on the next album.

I predict it will sell pretty well, partly because they're promoting the hell out of it. After years and years of not seeing the pumpkins anywhere, suddenly they're all over the place. Radio, television, music blogs, magazines, myspace... i think this album will appeal to the younger generation, the ones who aren't comparing it to SD or MCIS and are just hearing it for what it is. Remember, people who post here are generally much harder on them because we expect so much. And if a majority of netphoria posters like it a lot, with all of the negativity this place is associated with, then surely other forums like thepumpkins.net or blamo have even more Zeitgeist fans. I think it's going to be fairly successful.

I tried listening to Machina 1&2 last night and had to skip through most of the tracks. Zeitgeist is very fresh and concise in its presentation, except for United States which does the epic thing really well. It's not as good as classic pumpkins, but it's at least refreshing.

it's tolerable as music, but it would have to be a LOT better to justify the usage of the sp name. it's just not in the same arena. it's the prozac pumpkins. the dark knights of zwan. it's not the smashing pumpkins, as much as i'd like it to be. maybe it will fail horribly and he'll finally wise up, but at this point i'm saying odds are against us ever hearing a real new sp album, unless it's old unreleased stuff.

i'd rather listen to pastichio medley than ZG.

i agree about the machina thing completely.

i actually listened to "in my body" three times yesterday

I've never been more disappointed with a pumpkins album then Machina...but some of my friends loved machina? Zeitgeist Crushes Machina, TFE, Mary Star, into dust!!!