Fuck you Charlie Rangel (he supports the draft)
 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061119/...itics_draft_dc

Wow. Rangel can take his goofy voice and sense of style and just go fuck off.

Won't happen . it's too unpopular with the general public.

I still think he's a fucking idiot.

Donald Rumsfield was the biggest opponent to a draft. A democrat proposing one now just about sums up the respective parties and how upside down the system is currently. They seem intent on boosting the number of registered Independent's...

there would just be a ton of new gay people if the draft started up

Sing it sister!

I'd move to Canada.

I wanna do it eventually anyway. I doubt I will though unless this shit happens.

I really hope if there is a draft and Americans move to Canada, that Canada starts enforcing some tough immigration laws and that the US Gov't doesn't pussy out against deserters like they did in Vietnam.

If you desert, you're a coward and pussy, because you're putting someone else in harm's way instead of yourself.

Good to know you'd be on the frontline then? I don't believe in war. Period. Is it justified sometimes? Perhaps. That's why we have a military. It's not my fault that it's been stretched thin by this dumb ass administration over the past few years. And it's also not my fault that it isn't bigger because obviously there are a lot of other individuals who don't want to join up either.

I hate guns, I hate war, I will not fight in a war. I respect the sacrifice made by those who truly did/do want to fight, as I don't have the will to do that and I have no problem admitting it.

I can't tell how serious was this post meant to be, but - why would Canada do that? The Americans are the best immigrants you can think of.

Two words: political suicide. Rangel is an idiot if he thinks that the draft is going to make the war any more unpopular than it already is. Using people's kids as unwilling pawns to evoke anti-war sentiment won't have any effect on the war, but it would mean the end of some political careers.

I'm sure the late 60s were a groovy time for a lot of these baby boomers in charge of things now, but bringing back the issues that caused political turmoil back then isn't going to bring that era back. Why don't we just bring back Jim Crow while we're at it? Then we can have another Civil Rights movement and maybe another MLK can emerge and people can march on Washington and sing and have a grand old time. If we're gonna force ourselves to relive all the bad stuff of the 60s in order to foster a new protest culture, we might as well go all out.

On the bright side, the music would be a lot better.

It is to my understanding that Rangal is the man you want if you desire no more tax breaks for the rich and lots of aid to the lower and middle classes. So he's good for that. If they can shut his goofy ass up when it comes to a draft it won't be a problem.

If the Democratic party follows his lead, though... I'm switching to independent and likely never voting in this country ever again.

I wouldn't be so sure. The same people who are throwing this draft talk around are the same ones who want to make the military's stance on gays more progressive, are they not?

well it was partly in jest, but i don't think reinstating the draft would be coupled with a do ask/do tell policy. i think rangel is just doing this to prove a point anyhow, this will never happen

No.

Whether or not they are good or bad immigrants, would Canada just all of a sudden change their policies and allow tons of Americans to legally immigrate all at once? I doubt it.

Not to mention how harmful to their relations with the US such actions would be.

Well it's nice that you're willing to accept and take advantage of the freedoms that others are willing to fight for.

And no, I won't be on the frontline, because I'm not draft eligible. Also if I were drafted when I was eligible, I wouldn't be in the infantry most likely because of my education, but yes, I would go.

Whether or not you believe in a war is irrelevant, and you already said you hate all wars, so there's no point getting nitpicky about this one. Would you have gone to war against Japan in 1941? My guess is, no. You'd let everyone else go and fight and die and when it was all over think you're entitled to the same freedoms as those returning.

Yeah, and I bet you have flat feet.

I really know next to nothing about this - but did something like that (tons of Americans coming over) happen during Vietnam years?

Do you remember the hysteria when Bush did win the elections, how many people were claiming they immigrate to Canada - how many of them really showed up?

you say 'Not to mention how harmful to the relations with USA...' - well, Canada would be also quite idiotic to turn these people away.

Not everyone is cut out to be a soldier. It is selfish to assume that we can just draft everyone, toughen them up and turn them into killing machines. Not everyone can do that. We understand a lot more about the human psyche now and it would not be ideal to go back to drafting like that.

But in the defense of old wars, the world has most certainly changed. You don't need as many troops anymore. On the other hand I've lost a lot of trust in the reasons for going to war, period. Older wars I can actually understand in a lot of ways. But ever since the start of Vietnam you can SERIOUSLY question almost every major military action the US has taken at least to some extent.

I was also only being about half-serious. But I do wonder how many people of either party would get on or off the gays in the military bandwagon if a bunch of people started claiming they were gay in order to dodge the draft. But who am I kidding? I'd bet that most people would probably gladly take any chance they could to keep their kids out of the military.

But I agree that this will never happen (at least not in the forseeable future), so the whole discussion is a bit moot.

Canada would welcome draft-dodgers. Canada is what it is because of moderate Americans getting away from craziness. I live in an historic United Empire Loyalist community so I'm reminded of this fact often.

Not every soldier is a "killing machine." Did you know some soldiers are mailmen? Yes, mailmen. Some run newspapers. Some are cooks.

There are a shitload of jobs. Not everyone is infantry. You wouldn't accept being a cook?

The reason you can understand older wars is because you weren't around to see them and can only read what history presents. Wars back then were different in that there was a clear cut objective and the millitary went for it at all costs without Congress pulling them two steps back for every one step forward. War is supposed to be politically correct now... which is why we lost Vietnam and a major reason things are as they are in Iraq.

since this is all hypothetical i'm not going to speak with absolute certitude, but there's a 99% chance i wouldn't go if i was drafted. if i'm going to do something as absolutely serious as go to war, i will only do so of my own volition and i don't want any part in going to war with anyone who hasn't volunteered to be there.

That's fine, but I think you'd be willing to accept the consequences of your refusal then, while I doubt this guy would.

exactly.

Um, that's a little over-simplified, eh?

"Politically correct" probably isn't the best word for it but he is correct. Iraq would not be a problem for the American military if it laid down an ass whooping like historical armies probably would have. They would be wrong to do so, but their lives would also be a lot easier.

I was actually referring more to Vietnam

We're so overly concerned about media coverage that basically soldiers can't do their jobs. We have "kindler, gentler wars" now and don't really bring the hammer down. If Iraq was fought like the contemporary millitary is equipped to fight it, this thing would be over now, or nearing completion. Do you realize whatthe allies didin Dresden in WWII? Or Hiroshima and Nagasaki? There were in those days acceptable civillian casualties. These days, any civillian casualty is unacceptable, and that makes fighting a war nearly impossible

Canada has a pretty poor record of dealing with illegal immigrants over the past 15 years or so, there is so much red-tape with coming here legally that everyone just decides to jump queue and walk in and claim they are "refugees". Even Americans come to Canada trying to claim they are refugees in a bid to stay here in Canada (usually because they are wanted for crimes in the U.S.).

The former federal Liberal government sort of just let immigrant and illegal immigration spiral out of control without any checks and balances, planning or organization. Canada needs immigration but not the way it currently is, not everyone can come and settle in Toronto.....

As for draft doggers, Canada has a long history of allowing Americans to come here. This hasn't been true recently with the Iraq war stuff however if the draft came back I am pretty sure the government would look the other way again especially if the Liberals are back in power again by that time.

I'm starting to feel that way about you, too.

too bad Andrew you weren't around when I had this awesome discussion about Canadian immigration with Sleeper: http://forums.netphoria.org/showthread.php?t=128289

Yeah...a war set to the soundtrack of limp bizkit,Green Day, panic at the disco, MCR, U2, and Madonna.

hey their side gets brian adams and anne muuray and rush and nickelback and michael j fox commercials

Hey Nimrod, I said I have a great deal of respect for those who serve. Avoiding a war is avoiding a war, there's no difference between me and the other guy who said it. He might say he'd be willing to face the consequences NOW, but I'm sure that would change if the reality ever had to set in.

You are such a staunch conservative, it's pretty sickening. You're completely out of touch with the mainstream, Nimrod. It's easy for guys like you to say you'd support a draft since you're not eligible.

I've been in the Navy for seven years as a Damage Controlman (firefighting) on board ships. It's great really. But in all actuality I would say only about %30 of the military is affected (life or death) with what goes on in Washington and their politics. There are so many jobs in the Military that have absolutely nothing to do with combat…but that is all that is ever portrayed. You never hear about the military postal clerk who coordinated the delivery of 90 tons of mail during a six month deployment. All you ever hear about are the frontline stories, which is, in essence, what gives wars or conflicts a bad name…Anyway…Truth be told, I don’t think conscription is a bad idea. A lot of people think of the "draft" as "oh shit I have to go play platoon". You live in this country so why not do a mandatory couple years of civil service? Work at for the VA, DHS, TSA, Corps of Engineers, FEMA so on and so forth, or, if you want, military service, and still receive the same benefits (Educational etc…) as all the other Gov’t employees. I mean, people bitch about government organizations all the damn time, or how this country sucks but don’t do anything about it.

the 18 to 26 bracket would probably riot if that ever happened

No, you're getting me all wrong. What I meant is if we bring back the 60s, the 60s quality music will come back and replace all the shitty stuff from today. Instead of the crap you just mentioned, we'll get brand new artists on the level of Hendrix, the Doors, etc.