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-   -   In 50-Yard Square in Belarus, a Country Within (http://forums.netphoria.org/showthread.php?t=116561)

sleeper 03-23-2006 11:47 AM
In 50-Yard Square in Belarus, a Country Within
 
Quote:
In 50-Yard Square in Belarus, a Country Within
By C. J. CHIVERS

MINSK, Belarus, March 22 — By midnight, as the temperature dropped ever lower and morning twilight was still five hours off, the core of Belarus's public opposition assumed its shape in the darkness.

It was about 300 people, arms interlocked and forming a small, dense square, stomping on the frozen ground under a police cadre's contemptuous gaze. Behind them, inside their human box, another group of demonstrators held their banned flags overhead, a thicket of banners over 20 small tents. At any moment, the demonstrators said, they expected the police to rush forward, beat them with clubs and drag them off to the detention cells. And then their protest would end in blood.

All of them said they were ready. "They may attack and beat us and inflict great trauma," said Stepan Svidersky, 18, a student. "But we have already achieved a result: We have shown our country that we are not afraid to stand against arbitrary rule."

Since a rigged presidential election on March 19, the capital of Belarus has seen a protest like none in 12 years of President Aleksandr G. Lukashenko's autocratic grip. For four consecutive days, protesters have defied warnings of arrest and bloodshed and stood in a corner of October Square to demand a new race.

Their numbers rise to several thousand each evening, as they form a rally and impromptu dance party on the edge of an ice rink, and then dwindle, hour by hour, until midnight, when this core stands through the night, in two lines, to hold the place for the next day.

It is a frigid, risky vigil, given the Belarussian weather and the government's history of reflexive brutality against those who dare to stand and call for better lives than Mr. Lukashenko's island of Soviet nostalgia and corruption has been able, or willing, to provide.

Mostly they are young men in their 20's. A few look too young to shave. But since Tuesday night, when the opposition's leaders began to disagree about how best to proceed in their effort to unseat a president they do not recognize, this all-night core has become an independent force in a quixotic struggle.

Their influence emerged when one of Mr. Lukashenko's two principal challengers, Aleksandr V. Kazulin, urged the protesters to disband Tuesday night and save themselves before the police crackdown.

"There is no sense in keeping them on the square," Mr. Kazulin said. "We should think about our children, protect them, and not keep them in front of us."

The protesters refused to go. And they rejected the label of "children," applied to them by Mr. Kazulin, as well as by Mr. Lukashenko, as they crowded together in the plummeting cold. They formed their two lines, one facing out of the camp, to warn of any advance by the police, the other facing inward, to keep an eye on the behavior of the demonstrators, ensuring that no provocateurs had slipped inside.

After midnight, they occupied a portion of Belarus, a country of 10 million people the size of Kansas, that was no larger than a 50-yard square.

It was a country within. They danced on its cold stone. They handed out tea. They said they would not give it up.

"We consider this camp to be the only means to defend our position," Vitaly Korotysh, 22, one of the coordinators of the rally, said at 3:30 a.m. "If necessary it will stand for years. And if they break it up, I think on the next day the people will be back."

It is too soon to know whether this is foolishness or resolve.

But their position has been supported by Aleksandr Milinkevich, the second-place finisher in the election, with 6 percent of the vote, far behind the incumbent's 82.6 percent, which the protesters see as a cynical fraud.

Mr. Milinkevich has said he will be with the demonstrators until the end, whatever shape events may take. It all could end with a dwindling of interest, he said, or in state violence. But inevitably, he said, the feelings here will grow.

"We live in a country of total fear, and very few people are brave enough to come out like this," he said, standing in front of the ranks at 4 a.m., as the temperature dropped to 10 degrees. "This action destroys fear inside the country because it tells people it is possible to fight for your own destiny."

The protesters see little chance of changes in government anytime soon. To the extent that this is a revolution, Mr. Milinkevich often says, it is a revolution not on the streets but in the mind.

In many ways the students are following in the footsteps of the people's movement that overturned a rigged presidential vote in Ukraine in 2004. How widely the feeling is spreading is unclear, but they have left their camp and posted rallying cries on the Internet. They have sent text messages by mobile phones to their friends. And they venture away a few hours a day — risking arrest when alone or in small groups away from the foreign photographers and news crews here — urging others to join them.

They hope for a large rally on Saturday, a day of celebration of a short-lived Republic of Belarus in 1918 that the government does not recognize and that Mr. Lukashenko despises. Since this year's celebration happens to fall on a Saturday, potential opposition supporters will not be at work.

But their efforts have been squelched so far by the arrests of protesters leaving the square and by state television coverage that has portrayed them as homosexual, drunk and, in the words of one riot police commander, "pathetic."

But ultimately, Mr. Milinkevich said, a message exists here that cannot be missed by Mr. Lukashenko and his security apparatus, which retains the name K.G.B. "We are not cattle anymore," he said.

That sentiment was repeatedly expressed in the darkness, as demonstrators made clear it was not merely the election they protested, but the entire form of government Mr. Lukashenko has built.

They attacked the government's arbitrary detentions and its smothering of political and economic freedoms, including the freedoms of assembly and speech. And they condemned the paired inefficiency and corruption that they said were at the center of the administration. Although some Western countries, including the United States, have aided opposition groups here with training, financing and political support, the demonstrators on the square speak of an organic anger, fueled by the injustice and inequities within Belarus.

"Those who have a higher education understand that Lukashenko is a commodity profiteer," said Maxim Grechkoyedov, 25, an engineer who said that the government accepted natural gas from Moscow at below-market prices, part of Russia's subsidy of the Belarussian state, and then sold a portion at market prices, keeping the difference for the president and the elite.

Mr. Grechkoyedov said the protesters were here because they were part of Belarus's "lost generation," those who have attended universities since the Soviet Union's disintegration, and have languished in low-paying jobs and under repression for their adult lives.

Many have had enough, he said; Europe is not supposed to be like this.

An opposition has been born. It is small, but one sign of its early resolve is that almost everyone who stands until dawn not only gives his or her last name for publication, but also insists that it be written down, knowing then that the authorities will see who they are.

"I am tired of the lies," said Aleksandr Zhukov, 21, a student. "I am no longer afraid."

He stood in the darkness, shifting his weight from one cold foot to the other, waiting for whatever comes next.
.

sleeper 03-23-2006 11:47 AM
this is shaping up to be pretty interesting. i knew these protests wouldnt at all mobilize people like they did in the ukraine last year, or just otherwise actually bring about any change, because they really dont even have that much popular support, but i really didnt expect it to have even the life its showing to have now. which is like 300 core people, and a few thousand on the first day. the article gets it right calling it a "quixotic struggle" and thats specifically whats so endearing about the whole thing. i think if something like this, even on such a small scale, were to carry for long enough, the trend -- losing more and more people due to the perceived futility of participating -- would actually reverse itself. but only under certain conditions and to a limited extent because there isnt even that much popular antipathy, relatively speaking, towards lukashenko. all of this is very interesting, i think

and its also neat how much the media is taking an active role. the article itself talks about how the security apparatus is slowly picking off protesters for arrest, but only out of the sight of the foreign media, who are congregated in the main square. even one of the oppositions head guys, i forget whom, was picked off this way a few days ago. its incredible that the media can become so much of a participant. i think theyre doing this consciously as well, protecting them and trying to give any speed they can to the demonstrations

Nimrod's Son 03-24-2006 10:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sleeper
this is shaping up to be pretty interesting.
not really

sleeper 03-24-2006 10:36 AM
says the guy who probably didnt even know what belarus was until this thread. youre outclassed here, child, move along. some people take interest in things outside of their borders, if you could even fathom such a thing

Nimrod's Son 03-24-2006 11:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sleeper
says the guy who probably didnt even know what belarus was until this thread.
o rly

DeviousJ 03-24-2006 12:50 PM
I hope they do get a bigger turnout on Saturday - I mean this isn't close to the level of the Ukraine rallies, so I doubt it will even have a direct effect on the government, but if it really does swell in size people will have to take notice. They'll start doubting that these people are all gay and drunk or whatever, and hopefully it will make people start to think - more of them, anyway. Protestors are usually only a fraction of the people who support a cause anyway, so it will be good to see how this pans out

DeviousJ 03-24-2006 12:51 PM
Oh wait

Quote:
By Andrei Makhovsky

MINSK (Reuters) - Belarussian President Alexander Lukashenko sent in riot police on Friday to end days of opposition street protests against his re-election, drawing condemnation from the West, but winning sympathy from Russia.

Police wearing riot helmets and carrying batons swooped in the early hours on around 200 demonstrators camped out in Minsk's October Square and drove them away in trucks to a pre-trial detention centre.

The demonstrators, led by the main opposition party that is planning a mass rally on Saturday, had been pressing for a re-run of Sunday's polls which handed Lukashenko five more years in power. The opposition says the poll was blatantly rigged.

"The authorities ... only know the language of force," main opposition leader Alexander Milinkevich, who has spearheaded the peaceful resistance, told reporters, his voice breaking.

The opposition called an emergency meeting and vowed to proceed with Saturday's big show of protest. Milinkevich, not among those detained, was also planning a news conference.

The action drew quick condemnation from the West with the U.S. State Department saying it was disturbed by the news.

Austrian Foreign Minister Ursula Plassnik, whose country currently holds the European Union presidency, said events had confirmed the EU's "negative assessment" of Belarus. Plassnik said the EU had decided to take "restrictive measures" against those linked to the vote, including Lukashenko.

The Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) which denounced Lukashenko's re-election as flawed.

But Russia, Lukashenko's big backer on the world stage, accused the OSCE of playing an "inflammatory role" in Belarus.

Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov defended the police action as restrained. "I would not call what I saw on television a forced dispersal of people or say that there was a use of force," he said, according to Interfax news agency.

"I don't think that the protesters asked for permission to have such a meeting in accordance with the law."

Lukashenko, in power since 1994, has been branded Europe's last dictator by the United States and is shunned by Western governments because of his Soviet-style policies at home.

Though President Vladimir Putin's Kremlin is not comfortable with Lukashenko's style, it wants to protect its sphere of influence in the old Soviet Union, eroded by revolutions in Ukraine and Georgia that brought pre-Western leaders to power.

The five days of protests, in which numbers have ranged from 200 to several thousand, were unusual in that police in tightly-controlled Belarus usually snuff out dissent quickly.

TENT CAMP SURROUNDED

In the early morning operation, dozens of police surrounded the protesters in the makeshift tent camp and told them to disperse. Those who refused were forcibly carried into trucks, while other demonstrators followed without resisting.

Those detained seemed likely to get jail sentences of up to two weeks for public order offences.

State television made a point of quoting city police saying no-one was hurt in the operation. An officer in command urged his men through a loudhailer not to use excessive force.

Milinkevich's Internet site said all underage protesters had been released by mid-morning. Officials have not yet said how many people were detained.

Some observers said the comparatively gentle treatment of demonstrators suggested Lukashenko may be trying to react more sensitively given Western opinion.

Others say Putin may have applied pressure to ensure a minimum of force was used. Though the Kremlin congratulated Lukashenko on his win, Putin would not, as current chairman of the Group of 8 rich nations, want to be associated with unsavoury police action in Belarus.

Lukashenko won the election with an official vote tally of 83 percent to 6 percent for Milinkevich. Despite his pariah status in the West, Lukashenko is popular among Belarussians for having ensured relative political and economic stability.

sleeper 03-24-2006 01:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeviousJ
I hope they do get a bigger turnout on Saturday - I mean this isn't close to the level of the Ukraine rallies, so I doubt it will even have a direct effect on the government, but if it really does swell in size people will have to take notice. They'll start doubting that these people are all gay and drunk or whatever, and hopefully it will make people start to think - more of them, anyway. Protestors are usually only a fraction of the people who support a cause anyway, so it will be good to see how this pans out
even with their dispersal there is some hope that it could resume on saturday. that was the plan, but im sure the security forces know that and are going to plan accordingly. i just think its important to keep with the thread and not lose momentum, even if it is, like i said, on a tiny scale. once it stops for a while its over until the either the next elections or some other lighting rod incident. the idea was never really to lead to an orange revolution-esque overthrow but to just changes the terms of the situation incrementally: increase awareness of the opposition to those who are solely influenced by state propaganda, give a human face (hot face too, there were some really gorgeous girls in some of the photos ive been seeing from this) to the people opposed to lukashenko, who, yeah, are characterized as being homos and drunks and american stooges, to win some recruits and foster a more substantial movement, etc. all of those goals are attainable i think, but unfortunately i dont think even those will realyl be achieved. they need some new strategy, something sensational. they can build on this mood right now. ive never been to belarus, but from what i understand there is a heavy and pervasive mood of fear at all times and this election and the minimal protests that followed at least stirred things up a bit and brought the question of the states fitness for power to peoples minds. you can build on that, for sure

but it stands to be said again that a lot of belarussians actually support lukashenko and their standard of living actually has increased quite a bit since he took power. there isnt really a sense of urgency amongst a lot of people, ive been reading. the people who do oppose him are mostly all students, the educated. there really isnt a common idea that has currency across the board it seems, and thats something youd need to really get going. a viable, but potentially morally wrong, strategy would be to just agitate the government in hopes of provoking some kind of reaction that touches on everyone and can serve to unite people against lukashenko. again, you need a common interest, a common cause

RopeyLopey 03-24-2006 06:00 PM
Quote:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...735514,00.html
....
The irony of the west preaching civil society and shock therapy at the same time is that you cannot have both. Western advisers made economic transformation a priority, but wherever their advice was followed it was poverty, not pluralism, that resulted. Across the old communist bloc "shock therapy" enriched a few dozen oligarchs and their foreign economic advisers, but the mass unemployment it caused and the collapse of public spending it demanded smashed the foundations of the civil society emerging under Gorbachev.

By protecting Belarus from the ravages of free-market fundamentalists and delivering economic growth and prosperity for the mass of Belarussians, Lukashenko has sown the seeds of a pluralistic society far better than by handing the state's assets over to half a dozen cronies of western advisers.

Belarus is far from perfect, but it is a country where masses of ordinary people are getting on with life and getting a bit better off. That is why Lukashenko inspires fear and loathing in the thinktanks and foreign ministries of the west. By saving Belarus from mass unemployment he set a terrible example. What if the neighbours tried to copy it?

· Mark Almond is a lecturer in modern history at Oriel College, Oxford
It would be really interesting to see if the ordinary Belarus people were doing better without Lukaschenko.

RopeyLopey 03-24-2006 06:10 PM
7 miracles of socialism:

1. Everyone's got a job.
2. Although everyone's got a job, no one is doing anything.
3. Although no one is doing anything, plan is met by 100%.
4. Although the plan is met by 100%, all stores are empty.
5. Although the stores are empty, everyone always gets what he needs.
6. Although everyone always gets what he needs, eveyrone is stealing.
7. Despite everyone's stealing, nothing is missing.

sleeper 03-24-2006 06:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RopeyLopey
It would be really interesting to see if the ordinary Belarus people were doing better without Lukaschenko.

what do you think? do you think they would be doing better with someone else, someone more liberal or capitalist? i think the extreme of that that article talked about, the shock therapy approach, is a definite course to failure. im surprised that the economic policies promoted by the west for developing countries have any credibility left right now. i mean, like we were talking about, look at argentina. kirchner payed off the last of argentinas debts to the IMF a month or two ago and he basically is walking away and never coming back. simple as that.

RopeyLopey 03-25-2006 02:44 PM
I am wondering what the Russia would do. I think Belarus gets a lot of good deals with Russia regarding gas, oil, or electricity now. The West is too far and either way they depend on Russia.

Also, I read that Milinkevich doesn't seem to be any better character than Lukashenko and that he's just good in presenting himself as the only alternative to Lukashenko. That the third runner actually seems to be a honest guy (he is some professor from university), but he got only few votes.

We have this saying:
Getting from the mud into a puddle.

DeviousJ 03-25-2006 02:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RopeyLopey
We have this saying:
Getting from the mud into a puddle.
Caught between a rock and a hard place

Speaking of Ukraine, that ain't going so well either huh. I heard the Pres has gone crawling back to sassy ex-PM Yulia Tymoshenko to try and form a coalition so the other guy doesn't get voted back in

RopeyLopey 03-25-2006 03:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeviousJ
Caught between a rock and a hard place

Speaking of Ukraine, that ain't going so well either huh. I heard the Pres has gone crawling back to sassy ex-PM Yulia Tymoshenko to try and form a coalition so the other guy doesn't get voted back in
I wish I get down one day with a native speaker and we will do a book on these things - it's fascinating how these sayings are the same yet different.


I really feel sorry for Yushchenko. He seems to be a really good guy, yet everything's falling apart and I don't think it's entirely his fault. He's like Bolivar of Ukraine I think.

I am just realizing how everything was relatively easy for us just thanks to the fact we border Germany, that we're so close. But if you're Belarus or Ukraine, you can't ignore Russia - either way they will make you play along their score - there aren't many alternatives - look at Chechnya.
Father of my very good friend works in Kazakhstan and that seems to be a pretty dangerous Wild West, too.

DeviousJ 03-25-2006 03:09 PM
Well apparently him firing the cabinet every month or so didn't help matters, and these were strong measures to help fight corruption which... well, didn't pay off, so really he was taking a big risk and now he's feeling the consequences. It's hard to say what he should have done and if things could have been different, but he hasn't really had time to prove himself. But they reckon Tymoshenko's party is going to hold the balance given the polls, and that's why he's trying to talk her round. Like she says, he doesn't have the option of joining together with Viktor 2, so she holds the cards in this one. Also she's apparently pissed about the firing

sleeper 03-25-2006 03:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RopeyLopey
I am wondering what the Russia would do. I think Belarus gets a lot of good deals with Russia regarding gas, oil, or electricity now. The West is too far and either way they depend on Russia.

Also, I read that Milinkevich doesn't seem to be any better character than Lukashenko and that he's just good in presenting himself as the only alternative to Lukashenko. That the third runner actually seems to be a honest guy (he is some professor from university), but he got only few votes.

We have this saying:
Getting from the mud into a puddle.
yeah but those deals just come part and parcel with being a russian lackey in the first place

i think you got it mixed up. the 3rd guy, kozulin, is the creep. hes just a stalking horse and ex-lukashenko adherent. a lot of the opposition hates him, from what ive read

sleeper 03-25-2006 03:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeviousJ
Caught between a rock and a hard place

Speaking of Ukraine, that ain't going so well either huh. I heard the Pres has gone crawling back to sassy ex-PM Yulia Tymoshenko to try and form a coalition so the other guy doesn't get voted back in
yeah there have been all kind of old-school corruption and power-grab scandals. yulia does seem better anyways but its a shame that they squandered such a potentially long lasting honeymood period. the "other guy" (i forget his name too) is actually making gains again and posing himself as, if you believe this, the "anti-corruption" candidate

sleeper 03-25-2006 03:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeviousJ
Viktor 2
"Viktor II" for added evilness

sleeper 03-25-2006 03:51 PM
ok so there goes the saturday protest. apparently 6000 appeared, which is great for this, but were blocked from entering the square. theres another protest planned for the chernobyl anniversary next month. this quote was funny:

Quote:
"These special forces — they are black cockroaches," said one stooped and elderly pensioner, who gave only her first name, Maria. "They are hirelings. My parents were oppressed. I am oppressed. I hate this power."

RopeyLopey 03-25-2006 04:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sleeper
yeah but those deals just come part and parcel with being a russian lackey in the first place
well that's what I am saying. Will those deals last if Belarus shows it's fed up with this lackey position?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sleeper
i think you got it mixed up. the 3rd guy, kozulin, is the creep. hes just a stalking horse and ex-lukashenko adherent. a lot of the opposition hates him, from what ive read
I read some more and i am quite confused myself. I can't really say who's good and who's bad anymore. If I were from Belarus, I'd emmigrate to Canada ;).

DeviousJ 03-25-2006 04:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sleeper
yeah there have been all kind of old-school corruption and power-grab scandals. yulia does seem better anyways but its a shame that they squandered such a potentially long lasting honeymood period. the "other guy" (i forget his name too) is actually making gains again and posing himself as, if you believe this, the "anti-corruption" candidate
Well I read something about animosity between the two of them even during the campaign, I think. Actually the word they used was enmity. So maybe it's not a big surprise that he decided to get rid of her as soon as he got in power - but still, you're right about the whole honeymoon period thing, it just seemed like this whole dramatic people's revolution thing going on, and he can't really be surprised that people are less impressed with him after the whole thing

sleeper 03-25-2006 05:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RopeyLopey
well that's what I am saying. Will those deals last if Belarus shows it's fed up with this lackey position?

I read some more and i am quite confused myself. I can't really say who's good and who's bad anymore. If I were from Belarus, I'd emmigrate to Canada ;).
i dont think that first thing is possible. i mean lukashenko only exists by virtue of russian support, so its weird talking about one being separated from the other.

im confused to. its hard to weed out the propaganda, on both sides, and the plain ignorance of a lot of people. i read this little essay thing from someone who conducted focus groups in belarus and the guy himself was like "i dont think these people really know anyhting" and he cited two polls questions that polled with a high majority, but were completely contradictory. like something like "i support lukashenko" won 70% and the "i support the opposition" won like 70%. he attributes that to just fear and propaganda produced ignorance, which i dont doubt is the case

if i were from belarus id join the movement. i couldnt just sit around while this was going on. this is a relatively new feeling, a few years old perhaps, but i really feel like i have to somehow contribute something tangible and good to this world before i go, and being there at this time would provide a clear opportunity for fulfilling that. i started donating blood every month or so and that takes a bit of the edge of this feeling, but thats obviously not enough. i know it sounds like romanticism or something but its actually just very plain and logical

and you know, jan, ive been thinking so much about what you said before about the "its taking food away from your family thing." that is so so so interesting. i dont think you realize it (i forget how much, or if, i said this) but that really revolutionized my view of the matter. i used to just not be able to understand why people opted for that course but now i totally get it. it all makes sense to me now. im just saying

sleeper 03-25-2006 05:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeviousJ
Well I read something about animosity between the two of them even during the campaign, I think. Actually the word they used was enmity. So maybe it's not a big surprise that he decided to get rid of her as soon as he got in power - but still, you're right about the whole honeymoon period thing, it just seemed like this whole dramatic people's revolution thing going on, and he can't really be surprised that people are less impressed with him after the whole thing
really, animosity during the campaign? i didnt know that. shit. i was duped by the whole superficial perception of the thing. i hate that, i hate when i dont fully question something through and through. i remember there being some minor squabbling or something but i, for instance, really didnt see this split coming at all

but im just waiting for that russian porn movie with a look-alike of her having sex with a look alike of him in a helicopter over chechnya. hahah

RopeyLopey 03-25-2006 05:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sleeper
i dont think that first thing is possible. i mean lukashenko only exists by virtue of russian support, so its weird talking about one being separated from the other.
I don't think it's that simple. Remember when Russia wanted Ukraine to pay Western Europe prices for the gas and how they shut them off? It was a big wake up call for EU, and I think it dramatically changed the view of EU and its energy policies. In the end the whole shutting down of gas for Ukraine weakened the position of Russia.
I am wondering what they would have done this time.

sleeper 03-25-2006 05:36 PM
oh so youre saying if there was a leadership change in belarus akin to the change in ukraine, right? with a more western oriented leader who russia was annoyed with? in that case, yeah, i imagine they would used their oil and aid as levers, but not anymore because of how badly they got burned with that last time. they learned it doesnt pay to politicize their trade like that. i dont know what theyd do now though. i think theyre working on preventative measures instead. youve seen how tightly russia is being closed down right? how foreign aid groups are being kicked out and laws passed against them and everything? they havent been ignoring whats been going on in their satellite states, theyre wise to these moves by the west

DeviousJ 03-25-2006 06:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sleeper
really, animosity during the campaign? i didnt know that. shit. i was duped by the whole superficial perception of the thing. i hate that, i hate when i dont fully question something through and through. i remember there being some minor squabbling or something but i, for instance, really didnt see this split coming at all

but im just waiting for that russian porn movie with a look-alike of her having sex with a look alike of him in a helicopter over chechnya. hahah
Here we go
http://www.tymoshenko.com.ua/eng/news/press/2741/

Quote:
Mr. Yushchenko fired Mrs. Tymoshenko's government less than eight months after he appointed her as prime minister, saying he no longer could tolerate backbiting by political allies.

Although anticipated by many analysts, the firing created open warfare between the president and Mrs. Tymoshenko. The two publicly appeared amicable during the campaign, although they share a private enmity, insiders say.
Oh god, someone buy them a decent computer
http://www.tymoshenko.com.ua/additio...video_big.html

I wonder if her site will have a news item about the porn movie release

sleeper 03-25-2006 06:33 PM
wow, really, the quality of that was pathetic. i thought all of these people were weened on bootlegged special effect laden hollywood movies. they have refined tastes, what is yulia trying to pull with this fuckinh shit? dumb bitch. daft cow

RopeyLopey 03-25-2006 06:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeviousJ
I wonder if her site will have a news item about the porn movie release
If she will look good there (or the look-a-like), I bet there will be some.

I would like to hear her speak English, I can't judge her as a speaker when she speaks in Ukrainian (or is it Russian?).

DeviousJ 03-25-2006 06:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sleeper
wow, really, the quality of that was pathetic. i thought all of these people were weened on bootlegged special effect laden hollywood movies. they have refined tastes, what is yulia trying to pull with this fuckinh shit? dumb bitch. daft cow
It's a step above those middle-eastern terrorist productions though, it can't be all bad. I wonder what she was saying? Probably 'I can't believe I'm in such a crappy piece of VT'. I bet the porn movie will have more artistic merit

DeviousJ 03-25-2006 06:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RopeyLopey
If she will look good there (or the look-a-like), I bet there will be some.

I would like to hear her speak English, I can't judge her as a speaker when she speaks in Ukrainian (or is it Russian?).
Russian I guess - I can only speak a few words and she didn't use any of them. I love that accent though

sleeper 03-25-2006 07:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeviousJ
It's a step above those middle-eastern terrorist productions though, it can't be all bad. I wonder what she was saying? Probably 'I can't believe I'm in such a crappy piece of VT'. I bet the porn movie will have more artistic merit
i didnt know anyone watched that video i linked to. werent the videos hilarious? the clips on the american humvees being bombed put the fear of god in me. they really are incredibly brutal explosions. this is what you get for watching blooming, slow motion hollywood explosions all your life. but, really, theyre unbelievable. BANG and then just this huge cloud of dust goes up. its really really sad. all of this is so unfortunate. for all the talk about america fucking this up and making a mess and whatever im still not at all without sympathy for the people getting limbs blown off and shit on the ground. its brutal

or shit? are you talking about something else, some other middle eastern production? i was talking about the terrorists homemade promo videos

you have a new edge to you deviousj, whats up. youve levelled up, so to speak. im kind of afraid youre going to turn on me. dont hurt me

did you read the part of the email i sent you where i mentioned the medley? if so, do you want it now, because i, like a real loser, just went ahead and did it anyways. i had so much fun and it really turned out awesome. ive been listening to it for the past few days

DeviousJ 03-25-2006 07:21 PM
Haha yeah, hit me up with that. Like usual I read the email pretty much within 2 days of you sending it, then I take my time replying. I'll stick it on my mp3 thing and enjoy. What's this about the edge? Is it because I'm missing the smiley face on some posts?

And yeah, I'm talking about those home movie things. Maybe they're inspiring, in the same way underground journalism can produce these low quality fliers and newsletters or whatever, that still manage to stir people because of their integrity and raw quality. The punk ethic. It's the graphics that really get me though, like the titling system built into old VHS camcorders. Reminds me of those old shows where people would send in their own home movies they'd made. But you're right about the reality of the thing, I think that cuts through a lot of the bizarre 'man this sucks' feeling, it does bring home the truth of these things a lot more. It doesn't have to be dramatic to have gravity about it.

But hey, what was I gonna say... oh yeah that's it, I might get a camera, got any digital recommendations? I'd like a proper film camera but I can get some practice this way, and it would work out better for me at the moment

RopeyLopey 03-25-2006 07:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeviousJ
Russian I guess - I can only speak a few words and she didn't use any of them. I love that accent though
The last sentence was that she's waiting for you. Then she said something about 'Ukraine - a country where something stinks(?) and that she's got this new project called 'ideal country'. I really can't say if it's Russian or Ukrainian, though.

DeviousJ 03-25-2006 08:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RopeyLopey
The last sentence was that she's waiting for you. Then she said something about 'Ukraine - a country where something stinks(?) and that she's got this new project called 'ideal country'. I really can't say if it's Russian or Ukrainian, though.
Oh Yulia!

I didn't realize there was a Ukrainian language, I guess it would make sense that it's in Ukraininannan. Unless she's a big fan of irony

sleeper 03-25-2006 08:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeviousJ
Haha yeah, hit me up with that. Like usual I read the email pretty much within 2 days of you sending it, then I take my time replying. I'll stick it on my mp3 thing and enjoy. What's this about the edge? Is it because I'm missing the smiley face on some posts?

And yeah, I'm talking about those home movie things. Maybe they're inspiring, in the same way underground journalism can produce these low quality fliers and newsletters or whatever, that still manage to stir people because of their integrity and raw quality. The punk ethic. It's the graphics that really get me though, like the titling system built into old VHS camcorders. Reminds me of those old shows where people would send in their own home movies they'd made. But you're right about the reality of the thing, I think that cuts through a lot of the bizarre 'man this sucks' feeling, it does bring home the truth of these things a lot more. It doesn't have to be dramatic to have gravity about it.

But hey, what was I gonna say... oh yeah that's it, I might get a camera, got any digital recommendations? I'd like a proper film camera but I can get some practice this way, and it would work out better for me at the moment

why you laffin? guy works hard and you jusst laugh in his face? see what i mean. new edge. youve become a ruffian!

no but seriously you just seem to be putting more of yourself on the line, becoming less reserved and the like. its not a bad thing im just saying. its totally a good thing, in fact

ok check your pms

but have you ever seen actual high budget stuff from that region? seriously not much better. their whole aesthetic is entirely foreign to us, its incomprehensible. their beauty is our ugliness and vice versa. although there are exceptions, like that song i sent you before with that wailing woman. the "all hit music" song. or wait. that wasnt arabic? i forget. also some of their older art, from the middle ages. that stuff is stunningly good
im sure the lo-fi quality gives them credibility yeah. i mean, in a way, they dont even really have a choice. not only because they couldnt pull of some slick, gorgeous video with the means they have available to them (or even with the means), but imagine what people would think if it was truly high quality and lush? theyd think it was just black propaganda from the americans or something


im still steeped in film and honestly dont even have a digital camera but i guess i can give you some advice. it would be easier to decide between some options, that would be better, becsause i dont really follow trends in this or whatever and know the whole market as whole, what existing models are available and whatever. but i know canon has a practical lock on the market and that their professional digital stuff is all any photojournalist will touch. their cameras really are great, ive used their newest pro SLR a month or two or go (fucking $10,000 in your hands. scary as hell) and its unbelievable. i can just tell you that their consumer stuff is, unless theres some huge fuck up, also in the top. nikon is also invariably fantastic, but not always perfect, and sony has some good stuff i think. it really depends on what price range youre in, what features youre looking for, what you plan on using it for and whatever. its hard to just recommend from a dead start

RopeyLopey 03-25-2006 08:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeviousJ
Oh Yulia!

I didn't realize there was a Ukrainian language, I guess it would make sense that it's in Ukraininannan. Unless she's a big fan of irony
you should definitely give it a try, Lee. She's a billionaire and she can be hot, too, I mean look at her, she's 45:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/4...yuliaevita.jpg

why a big fan of irony? I actually wouldn't be surprised if it's Russian - it would actually make sense if she's addressing the whole country. Russian will hardly replace Ukrainian as an official language, on the other hand they don't seem to have very hard feelings against Russian and according to my understanding they apparently mix them often together, anyways.

DeviousJ 03-25-2006 08:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sleeper
why you laffin? guy works hard and you jusst laugh in his face? see what i mean. new edge. youve become a ruffian!

no but seriously you just seem to be putting more of yourself on the line, becoming less reserved and the like. its not a bad thing im just saying. its totally a good thing, in fact

ok check your pms

but have you ever seen actual high budget stuff from that region? seriously not much better. their whole aesthetic is entirely foreign to us, its incomprehensible. their beauty is our ugliness and vice versa. although there are exceptions, like that song i sent you before with that wailing woman. the "all hit music" song. or wait. that wasnt arabic? i forget. also some of their older art, from the middle ages. that stuff is stunningly good
im sure the lo-fi quality gives them credibility yeah. i mean, in a way, they dont even really have a choice. not only because they couldnt pull of some slick, gorgeous video with the means they have available to them (or even with the means), but imagine what people would think if it was truly high quality and lush? theyd think it was just black propaganda from the americans or something


im still steeped in film and honestly dont even have a digital camera but i guess i can give you some advice. it would be easier to decide between some options, that would be better, becsause i dont really follow trends in this or whatever and know the whole market as whole, what existing models are available and whatever. but i know canon has a practical lock on the market and that their professional digital stuff is all any photojournalist will touch. their cameras really are great, ive used their newest pro SLR a month or two or go (fucking $10,000 in your hands. scary as hell) and its unbelievable. i can just tell you that their consumer stuff is, unless theres some huge fuck up, also in the top. nikon is also invariably fantastic, but not always perfect, and sony has some good stuff i think. it really depends on what price range youre in, what features youre looking for, what you plan on using it for and whatever. its hard to just recommend from a dead start

I don't know, I haven't noticed. Check this one with the smiley face, see if it makes a difference. I know that it does, that's why I use it, but you know it's all about your personal perception.

I've seen a channel here called BEN - Black Entertainment Network, basically African programming and it's pretty similar, like you can tell they have crappy equipment and maybe don't even know how to get the best from it. I mean I don't see it as a bad thing exactly, it just doesn't fit so easily with our mindset because we're so used to huge amounts of money being thrown at these things, and everything becoming slicker and slicker. Look at our TV a decade or more ago, it's pretty bad in that respect. I think one part of it is that things like film were replaced by VHS, and it means that the cheapest equipment also takes a dive in quality. But yeah, it would look completely out of place, potentially at least. Hell I haven't seen a whole lot of tv from that region, some of it's definitely equivalent to ours though.

I think that Radio Sumatra song's Indonesian - I really liked that one too. Sometimes with this stuff it's just the fact that it's different that makes people dislike things - it's not actually ugly, it's just being viewed from the wrong perspective. Or a narrow one at least, that you might not realize you have until you come up against something that doesn't fit in. Expanding horizons and all that

Thanks for the camera tips, I haven't really been following it either. I'd just like something that takes good pictures, and has lots of settings I can mess with like exposure and so on. I love playing with that stuff

DeviousJ 03-25-2006 08:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RopeyLopey
you should definitely give it a try, Lee. She's a billionaire and she can be hot, too, I mean look at her, she's 45:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/4...yuliaevita.jpg

why a big fan of irony? I actually wouldn't be surprised if it's Russian - it would actually make sense if she's addressing the whole country. Russian will hardly replace Ukrainian as an official language, on the other hand they don't seem to have very hard feelings against Russian and according to my understanding they apparently mix them often together, anyways.
No arguments there. And I just meant it would be ironic if she was giving a speech about this new, ideal country she fought so hard to win for the people, from the old pro-Russian government - and doing it in Russian

sleeper 03-25-2006 08:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RopeyLopey
you should definitely give it a try, Lee. She's a billionaire and she can be hot, too, I mean look at her, she's 45:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/4...yuliaevita.jpg

why a big fan of irony? I actually wouldn't be surprised if it's Russian - it would actually make sense if she's addressing the whole country. Russian will hardly replace Ukrainian as an official language, on the other hand they don't seem to have very hard feelings against Russian and according to my understanding they apparently mix them often together, anyways.

she doesnt look a day over 25

DeviousJ 03-25-2006 09:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sleeper
she doesnt look a day over 25
Maybe there was some kind of nefarious magical conspiracy between her and Yushchenko - like she absorbed his life energy to become perpetually youthful, and poor V has to deal with the aftermath. Poisoning my ass


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