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Quiet CD 08-24-2005 07:37 PM

Salt Lake City, Utah - Illegal and brutally violent military incident
 
Article

Blog Account

Accounts

Video of the Incident

Regardless of superficial circumstances, what kind of music, even if there were drugs there (even though promoters had people in charge of confiscating them)... this is a blatant violation of our Constitutional rights and ever American should be angry. Imagine you go down to your bar one night and military comes in with attack dogs, tear gas and start beating your ass, because they felt it necessary to make a statement.

jczeroman 08-24-2005 07:42 PM

While this event, like most of these accounts, has been over-dramatized and hyperboled to death, I agree that Americans need to be very, very aware of the abuses going on in the name of the Drug War. I wish, though, that those on the left could see that there is no principled difference between raids on raves and cigarette taxes and regulations.

transluscent 08-24-2005 08:03 PM

at least pot arrests-are-up-ooops-i-mean-use-is-down you guys!

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics...region=single7

edit--does anyone else find it amusing that this happened in utah??

Quiet CD 08-24-2005 08:03 PM

How can you say that, are people beaten by military forces when they buy cigarettes and not pay taxes (if that were possible)?, apples and fucking bananas.

Nimrod's Son 08-24-2005 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Quiet CD
How can you say that, are people beaten by military forces when they buy cigarettes and not pay taxes (if that were possible)?, apples and fucking bananas.
The principle is the same.

And if you believe the accounts that "nobody was doing anything wrong and then the police came in and kicked the shit out of everyone" you're quite gullible. Police brutality is rarely found when there are that many officers involved.

Quiet CD 08-24-2005 10:38 PM

Watch the fucking video there is brutality... those look like U.S. Army soldiers not Police.

Even if every last person there was on drugs (which they weren't) what they did was still wrong.

Corganist 08-24-2005 10:46 PM

Re: Salt Lake City, Utah - Illegal and brutally violent military incident
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Quiet CD
Regardless of superficial circumstances, what kind of music, even if there were drugs there (even though promoters had people in charge of confiscating them)... this is a blatant violation of our Constitutional rights and ever American should be angry.
Sorry, but I don't think that the "right to party" made it into the copy of the Constitution I have, no matter what the Beastie Boys say. Yes, most drug laws are stupid. And the enforcement of such laws is even more stupid if that's possible...but as long as they're on the books, they still have to be followed. This wasn't some family picnic that got raided. It was apparently without a permit (according to law enforcement), and was apparently a place where laws were being violated on a more than nominal scale.

A few stoned asshats resisting arrest and getting roughed up by the police for their trouble is not exactly my idea of the Thought Police coming down.

transluscent 08-24-2005 10:50 PM

Re: Re: Salt Lake City, Utah - Illegal and brutally violent military incident
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Corganist

Sorry, but I don't think that the "right to party" made it into the copy of the Constitution I have

free assembly

Quote:

Originally posted by Corganist
It was apparently without a permit (according to law enforcement)
why then, is everyone else saying that it was with a permit? the words of the many outweigh the words of the few in this case

Quote:

Originally posted by Corganist
A few stoned asshats resisting arrest and getting roughed up by the police for their trouble is not exactly my idea of the Thought Police coming down.
since when are the police entitled to "rough someone up" in any way?

Corganist 08-24-2005 10:59 PM

Re: Re: Re: Salt Lake City, Utah - Illegal and brutally violent military incident
 
Quote:

Originally posted by transluscent

free assembly

Free assembly doesn't mean "go anywhere you want and mill around."

Quote:

why then, is everyone else saying that it was with a permit? the words of the many outweigh the words of the few in this case
Somehow I don't think that the best way of figuring out what happened is going to be by taking a vote. You have a bunch of partying college kids and a handful of professional officers. Think what you will of cops, but they come off way more credible here. The promoters might have had some kind of permit...but it wasn't what they needed apparently.

Quote:

since when are the police entitled to "rough someone up" in any way?
They're allowed to whatever they have to to subdue suspects. If you fight the cops, they can fight you back. And they usually win.

transluscent 08-24-2005 11:06 PM

Re: Re: Re: Re: Salt Lake City, Utah - Illegal and brutally violent military incident
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Corganist
They're allowed to whatever they have to to subdue suspects. If you fight the cops, they can fight you back. And they usually win. [/b]
Quote:

Originally posted by http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/8/22/13030/7546
One of the promoters friends (a very small female) was attacked by one of the police dogs. As she struggled to get away from it, the police tackled her. 3 grown men proceeded to KICK HER IN THE STOMACH.[/b]
this is subduing suspects?

seriously, doesnt this seem extreme/wrong to you at all?

Corganist 08-24-2005 11:24 PM

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Salt Lake City, Utah - Illegal and brutally violent military incident
 
Quote:

Originally posted by transluscent

this is subduing suspects?

seriously, doesnt this seem extreme/wrong to you at all?

Not particularly. Its pretty clear that this was not some poor innocent bystander. Police dogs are too well trained to just "attack" people for no reason. If the dog was on her, it was because she was in a place she shouldn't be, or doing something she shouldn't be. The fact that this girl made the stupid mistake of trying to resist arrest even after the dog was set on her tells me that the police were probably justified in their actions. It doesn't sound like she was going peacefully by any stretch.

MadManMead 08-24-2005 11:35 PM

From the article:

Quote:

RAVE busts have become infamous for their abuse of civil rights on young people across the country who only want to enjoy music.
Ha. What a joke. "Rave" is synonymous with "illegal drug party." How could anyone possibly bear that awful music without being loaded?

I sympathize with anyone who is mistreated by the police. However, I didn't see the police do anything inappropriate on that video, so it is the ravers' word against the cops. Sadly I will have to side with the cops on this one.

- Dave

Quiet CD 08-25-2005 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MadManMead
From the article:

Ha. What a joke. "Rave" is synonymous with "illegal drug party." How could anyone possibly bear that awful music without being loaded?

I sympathize with anyone who is mistreated by the police. However, I didn't see the police do anything inappropriate on that video, so it is the ravers' word against the cops. Sadly I will have to side with the cops on this one.

- Dave

Your ignorance is the rankest i've seen on netphoria in a while... have you ever been to a rave? Every single Rave I've been to was 100% LEGALLY thrown, none of them were broken up by police because they were all legal and guess what most people go sober.

Quote:

Originally posted by Corganist
Its pretty clear that this was not some poor innocent bystander.
How do you conclude such? were you there? do you know this, with what proof. Your posts are just towers of assumptions and labels teetering in the wind.

Quote:

Originally posted by Corganist
Free assembly doesn't mean "go anywhere you want and mill around."
here you go again... the property was private and legally permitted the party, why would the promoters be filing a lawsuit if it was illegally thrown that wouldn't make any sense. nor is there any proof from the police or military or whoever it was (still seemingly unknown which is another thing that should make people more than puzzled) that they witnessed such acts, i guess with their binoculars on the helicopters they could see that people were taking drugs and minors were having sex, still no evidence of such.

Quote:

Originally posted by Corganist
You have a bunch of partying college kids and a handful of professional officers. Think what you will of cops, but they come off way more credible here. The promoters might have had some kind of permit...but it wasn't what they needed apparently.
Presumptuous labels, how do you know that all of the people at the party were college kids, maybe they were mostly in their 50's trying to get away from their college kids.



I love how so many of you openly criticize a facet of culture you are far too sheltered even to begin to understand, let alone experience.

Corganist 08-25-2005 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Quiet CD

How do you conclude such? were you there? do you know this, with what proof. Your posts are just towers of assumptions and labels teetering in the wind.

Um, because the person said that the girl was resisting arrest? Instead of submitting to the dog, (who, like I said, is too well-trained to attack at random), she tried to fight it off and get away. Its pretty cut and dried that she was resisting arrest.

Quote:

here you go again... the property was private and legally permitted the party
You still generally need permits to have that many people gather, private property or not. Its bureaucratic as all hell, but its not an unreasonable thing to require. I can't have 2000 people gather in my back yard just because I want to.

Quote:

why would the promoters be filing a lawsuit if it was illegally thrown that wouldn't make any sense.
Anyone can file a lawsuit, even if they're in the wrong.

Quote:

nor is there any proof from the police or military or whoever it was (still seemingly unknown which is another thing that should make people more than puzzled) that they witnessed such acts, i guess with their binoculars on the helicopters they could see that people were taking drugs and minors were having sex, still no evidence of such.
There were undercover officers in the crowd. They saw more than enough to give probable cause for the raid. I highly doubt that they got this task force together and raided the place based on a vague hunch that there were drugs involved.

Quote:

I love how so many of you openly criticize a facet of culture you are far too sheltered even to begin to understand, let alone experience.
I don't think anyone has a problem with rave culture. If that's your thing, have at it. But if people want to ruin the party by breaking the law, then its hard to feel much sympathy for that. They should have done a better job of keeping the druggies out.

Nimrod's Son 08-25-2005 12:40 AM

Re: Re: Re: Salt Lake City, Utah - Illegal and brutally violent military incident
 
Quote:

Originally posted by transluscent

free assembly


why then, is everyone else saying that it was with a permit? the words of the many outweigh the words of the few in this case


since when are the police entitled to "rough someone up" in any way?

Free assembly still can require a permit. You can't just throw a parade whenever you want

Also, "everyone else" are ravers. How would they know whether or not there was a proper permit?

Nimrod's Son 08-25-2005 12:51 AM

Also I just watched fascism.mov. What a poorly named file. It showed the cops tell the guy to turn off the music and then ask the cameraman to leave and then arresting some people (the reasons weren't on camera) while other people were walking out unmolested

Knight0440 08-25-2005 12:53 AM

Portland IMC coverage

-------------------------------------

The PCA [Posse Comitatus Act of 1878] criminalizes, effectively prohibiting, the use of the Army or the Air Force as a posse comitatus [11] to execute the laws of the United States. It reads:

Whoever, except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act of Congress, willfully uses any part of the Army or Air Force as a posse comitatus or otherwise to execute the laws shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both. [12]

Source

Quote:

Police brutality is rarely found when there are that many officers involved.
Can you please validate your claim with evidence? Cause I think this statement is full of shit!

Quote:

Not particularly. Its pretty clear that this was not some poor innocent bystander. Police dogs are too well trained to just "attack" people for no reason. If the dog was on her, it was because she was in a place she shouldn't be, or doing something she shouldn't be. The fact that this girl made the stupid mistake of trying to resist arrest even after the dog was set on her tells me that the police were probably justified in their actions. It doesn't sound like she was going peacefully by any stretch.
Yer a fucking piece of shit. I hope some dog chews you a new one some day and you are forced to defend yourself only to have cops jump on you and kick the shit out of you. Oh wait, yer corganist, the greasy kid who just sits around in his undies debating people online cause he has no fucking clue about the real world and no drive to get involved in anything outside of his room.

transluscent 08-25-2005 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Knight0440
Portland IMC coverage

-------------------------------------

The PCA [Posse Comitatus Act of 1878] criminalizes, effectively prohibiting, the use of the Army or the Air Force as a posse comitatus [11] to execute the laws of the United States. It reads:

Whoever, except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act of Congress, willfully uses any part of the Army or Air Force as a posse comitatus or otherwise to execute the laws shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both. [12]

Source



Can you please validate your claim with evidence? Cause I think this statement is full of shit!



Yer a fucking piece of shit. I hope some dog chews you a new one some day and you are forced to defend yourself only to have cops jump on you and kick the shit out of you. Oh wait, yer corganist, the greasy kid who just sits around in his undies debating people online cause he has no fucking clue about the real world and no drive to get involved in anything outside of his room.

swat=/=army

Knight0440 08-25-2005 01:07 AM

The reports I've seen indicate military police and swat presence, but regardless, swat isnt police, its a paramilitary group of thugs paid for by US tax dollars

Corganist 08-25-2005 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Knight0440
Source
Do you even read the stuff you link to?

Quote:

The PCA expressly applies only to the Army and Air Force. Congress did not mention the Navy, Marine Corps, Coast Guard, or National Guard in the PCA; accordingly, the PCA does not limit them. . . Additionally, the PCA only applies to forces in federal service, and therefore, the National Guard is not limited by the PCA in its normal status of state service. Because the National Guard is the modern militia, this distinction actually follows the intent of the PCA, which was not meant to limit militias
Quote:

Oh wait, yer corganist, the greasy kid who just sits around in his undies debating people online cause he has no fucking clue about the real world and no drive to get involved in anything outside of his room.
No, I'm the person who knows better than to do anything except jump when a police officer with a gun or a dog says "frog." The difference between me and you is that I'm not willing to do something stupid like thumbing my nose at law enforcement just to say that I'm doing something. There are a lot better ways to stick it to the man than sticking your head in a police dog's mouth out of principle. Lawsuits are generally much less painful. Do what the officer says, I say.There's always time to complain later.

sleeper 08-25-2005 01:19 AM

what i dont really understand is, what threat or perceived threat were they responding to when the decided to employ soldiers in full combat dress with assault rifles? i get the idea of rave bust, but where in that is there a necessity for such a measure? using such forces isnt in itself wrong, but i just dont really get it and havent seen an explanation for it yet. granted, i havent looked very hard

but this is what you get for living in mormon country. utah is their turf, everyone knows that

jared 08-25-2005 01:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sleeper
what i dont really understand is, what threat or perceived threat were they responding to when the decided to employ soldiers in full combat dress with assault rifles?
that was my thought exactly. i've been at parties that were busted(legit and unlegit) and it was always just regular cops and they usually just told everyone to go home, no dogs, no weaponry pulled on anybody

Nimrod's Son 08-25-2005 02:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Knight0440
The reports I've seen indicate military police and swat presence, but regardless, swat isnt police, its a paramilitary group of thugs paid for by US tax dollars
Actually, they are local police officers. You're wrong again :eek:

sleeper 08-25-2005 02:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bittertrance


that was my thought exactly. i've been at parties that were busted(legit and unlegit) and it was always just regular cops and they usually just told everyone to go home, no dogs, no weaponry pulled on anybody

my only thought was that they were doing it to "send a message"or whatever. it does make for a pretty retarded situation though. cops tend to love to dramatize and get into character and this is probably the only time they can ever get to act out their rambo fantasies, so i wouldnt rule out plain adventure lust

Corganist 08-25-2005 02:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bittertrance


that was my thought exactly. i've been at parties that were busted(legit and unlegit) and it was always just regular cops and they usually just told everyone to go home, no dogs, no weaponry pulled on anybody

Were there a couple thousand people at any of these parties?

I think that dispersing the sheer mass amount of people there probably required a little more than a handful of uniformed officers could muster.

sleeper 08-25-2005 02:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Corganist

Were there a couple thousand people at any of these parties?

I think that dispersing the sheer mass amount of people there probably required a little more than a handful of uniformed officers could muster.

well, fortunately, there are many degrees between assault rifles & helicopters, and a handful of beat cops. what about riot police or units that are otherwise specifically geared towards crowd control purposes? i know those camo guys were used in conjunction with regular or riot police but still. you have to admit, this does, on surface, appear to be a bit excessive. again, that in itself isnt necessarily wrong, but it is suspicious. i just dont really get it

Corganist 08-25-2005 02:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sleeper


well, fortunately, there are many degrees between assault rifles & helicopters, and a handful of beat cops. what about riot police or units that are otherwise specifically geared towards crowd control purposes? i know those camo guys were used in conjunction with regular or riot police but still. you have to admit, this does, on surface, appear to be a bit excessive. again, that in itself isnt necessarily wrong, but it is suspicious. i just dont really get it

Well, it is Utah. I don't know if crowd/riot control is really something that'd come up all that often up there. SWAT may have been the closest thing to it that they could manage.

sleeper 08-25-2005 02:25 AM

bunch of faggots if you ask me

sleeper 08-25-2005 02:26 AM

you know who i envision when i think of you, corganist? the military dad from american beauty

sleeper 08-25-2005 02:28 AM

http://www2.filmweb.no/multimedia/ar...eri_24396a.jpg

jared 08-25-2005 02:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Corganist

Were there a couple thousand people at any of these parties?

I think that dispersing the sheer mass amount of people there probably required a little more than a handful of uniformed officers could muster.

they all ranged in quantity but the biggest was about that size. i've never seen anything like this,especially for a so called sanctioned event. the biggest threat i ever saw was a helicopter shining lights on us. even still it's not that difficult to disperse a rave. you tell people to go home and they pretty much just want to get out.

Nimrod's Son 08-25-2005 04:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sleeper


well, fortunately, there are many degrees between assault rifles & helicopters, and a handful of beat cops. what about riot police or units that are otherwise specifically geared towards crowd control purposes? i know those camo guys were used in conjunction with regular or riot police but still. you have to admit, this does, on surface, appear to be a bit excessive. again, that in itself isnt necessarily wrong, but it is suspicious. i just dont really get it

Often times - especially in non urban areas - SWAT are the riot police.

Future Boy 08-25-2005 05:23 AM

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Salt Lake City, Utah - Illegal and brutally violent military
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Corganist

Not particularly. Its pretty clear that this was not some poor innocent bystander. Police dogs are too well trained to just "attack" people for no reason. If the dog was on her, it was because she was in a place she shouldn't be, or doing something she shouldn't be. The fact that this girl made the stupid mistake of trying to resist arrest even after the dog was set on her tells me that the police were probably justified in their actions. It doesn't sound like she was going peacefully by any stretch.

I sort of agree with your line of thinking (not about the dog though, that's fairly stupid), but seriously, how many officers should it take to kick someone into submission? Appearantly you think 3 officers + dog is acceptable.

Nimrod's Son 08-25-2005 08:57 AM

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Salt Lake City, Utah - Illegal and brutally violent military
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Future Boy


I sort of agree with your line of thinking (not about the dog though, that's fairly stupid), but seriously, how many officers should it take to kick someone into submission? Appearantly you think 3 officers + dog is acceptable.

That's not shown on the tape.

jczeroman 08-25-2005 12:10 PM

Re: Re: Salt Lake City, Utah - Illegal and brutally violent military incident
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Corganist

Sorry, but I don't think that the "right to party" made it into the copy of the Constitution I have, no matter what the Beastie Boys say.

Post. Of. The. Year.

jczeroman 08-25-2005 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Quiet CD
How can you say that, are people beaten by military forces when they buy cigarettes and not pay taxes (if that were possible)?, apples and fucking bananas.
Both say that people don't have a right to do what they want with their own bodies. If cigarette buyers refused to pay taxes they woudl ultimately be faced with cops with guns. It's force. It's the same thing.

Quiet CD 08-25-2005 12:15 PM

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Salt Lake City, Utah - Illegal and brutally violent military
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Nimrod's Son
That's not shown on the tape.
At the very end it looks like three soldiers and a dog...

When have you ever seen SWAT police in camo?

.....

I've been to raves with 50,000 people, with Police there, in uniform and undercover, and even if people do get busted there for drugs, they don't start beating the whole crowd senselessly they remove the people who were involved with the drug trafficing and thats it

Future Boy 08-25-2005 02:12 PM

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Salt Lake City, Utah - Illegal and brutally violent m
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Nimrod's Son
That's not shown on the tape.
This is relevant how? At the moment, I take them for their word. You dont see any drug use in that video, but the cops say it was enough to call in the back-up, I take them at their word too.

pastry sharp 08-25-2005 05:27 PM

look, if laws were broken at this rave, the cops were with in their right to shut the even down. having said that, slc law enforcement is notoriously brutal. if i had to guess, i'd say both sides were lying to some degree.

Corganist 08-25-2005 06:05 PM

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Salt Lake City, Utah - Illegal and brutally violent military
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Future Boy

I sort of agree with your line of thinking (not about the dog though, that's fairly stupid), but seriously, how many officers should it take to kick someone into submission? Appearantly you think 3 officers + dog is acceptable.

If that's what it takes, then its acceptable. On its face, sure, it sounds borderline excessive...but then again, we really can't hold law enforcement to standards of what "sounds" good. A lot of officers could get hurt if we impose some kind of arbitrary "2 cop limit" on taking down suspects in situations where more are actually needed. I think its entirely plausible that a woman could struggle to the point that it'd take three cops to subdue her. (not even including the very real possibility that she might have been hopped up on something)

And if I may ask, what aspect of my comments about the dog do you take issue with?


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