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-   -   Salt Lake City, Utah - Illegal and brutally violent military incident (http://forums.netphoria.org/showthread.php?t=103777)

DeviousJ 08-26-2005 06:10 PM

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Salt Lake City, Utah - Illega
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Corganist:
blah
Where in this thread did anyone say the dog 'went crazy' and attacked her? It's pretty obvious that if a police dog attacks someone and the handler isn't attempting to restrain it that the dog is following a command given by the handler to do so. That's the whole point - WAS IT AN EXCESSIVE USE OF FORCE BY THE POLICE THERE? You were saying that they wouldn't have set it on her or had 3 people tackle and kick her or whatever for no reason, then backed this assumption up by saying 'she was struggling with the dog, therefore resisting arrest, so she must have deserved it'

I'm not refusing to recognize that a trained police dog is different from a wild animal, you're refusing to recognize the fact (which I thought was blatantly obvious) that people having the dog set upon them aren't going to deal with it rationally, have full trust in the dog's training, have faith in the police's motives or whatever. Dogs maul and kill people all the time, even 'trained' ones. I mean people are scared of little spiders for christ's sake, and they're utterly harmless.

Why am I even having to explain this? Wasn't the picture enough? Have you even had a dog set upon you to know you'd be thinking clearly and against your own natural reflexes and instincts in that situation? Where's that smiley

:dammit:

DeviousJ 08-26-2005 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jczeroman
It seems that were all missing one major point here: these kids were probably mormon.
Are you saying this was Monte's engagement party?

sleeper 08-26-2005 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jczeroman
It seems that were all missing one major point here: these kids were probably mormon.
johnny come lately

i said this shit already

Corganist 08-27-2005 03:47 AM

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Salt Lake City, Utah - Illegal and brutally violent m
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Future Boy

Because it's still an animal, regardless of how rigorous or excellent its training may be. Especially when it's trained to be physically aggressive. Saying police dogs are so well trained they're infallible is pretty crazy.

I never said they're infallible, but based on what I know about the subject I'd feel comfortable in saying that the instances of police dogs that act in a less than professional matter are probably pretty few and far between. I'm sure it happens, but I think that any claims as such have to be taken with at least a grain of salt.

Quote:

As far as dictating how many cops it should take to bring someone down, that's missing the point. Like you said, on it's face it seems excessive, and the cops would have to prove it was justified.
I'm not for giving officers carte blanche to rough up people as they please, but I also don't think they should have to have the fear of lawsuits in the back of their mind during dangerous situations. We don't want situations where cops hesitate or forgo necessary protective measures for fear that they won't be able to justify those measures to an outsider's view later on.

Corganist 08-27-2005 04:06 AM

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Salt Lake City, Utah - Illega
 
Quote:

Originally posted by DeviousJ

You were saying that they wouldn't have set it on her or had 3 people tackle and kick her or whatever for no reason, then backed this assumption up by saying 'she was struggling with the dog, therefore resisting arrest, so she must have deserved it'

I was talking about the need for her to be physically restrained by the officers. I wasn't saying that the act of fighting off the dog was in and of itself enough to justify everything that happened before and after. I highly doubt the K9 officer told the dog "Go make that girl resist arrest so we can tackle her!" Unless we're just talking about 3 or 4 totally unhinged officers who just happened to be in the same place at the same time and decided to attack the first person they saw, then I'd think that it would be logical to assume that there was some legitimate reason the police wanted this girl stopped before they even thought about using the dog.

I guess I'm just not seeing why we're even having this discussion. My point is that there is nothing presumptively unreasonable about using a dog and three officers to subdue a small female. We don't know anything about what drove the events, but I'm just not understanding why anyone would recount the incident as some kind of proof of obvious police overkill. Its just not that cut and dried. It could very well be an incident of excessive force, but I think it would take an unusual set of circumstances for that to be the case.

Future Boy 08-27-2005 02:15 PM

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Salt Lake City, Utah - Illegal and brutally v
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Corganist

I'm not for giving officers carte blanche to rough up people as they please, but I also don't think they should have to have the fear of lawsuits in the back of their mind during dangerous situations. We don't want situations where cops hesitate or forgo necessary protective measures for fear that they won't be able to justify those measures to an outsider's view later on.
I think they might be too busy saving their own ass to worry about a lawsuit. Force still has to be justified

DeviousJ 08-27-2005 05:28 PM

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Salt Lake City, Utah - Illegal and brutally violent military
 
Dude!

Quote:

Originally posted by Corganist
The fact that this girl made the stupid mistake of trying to resist arrest even after the dog was set on her tells me that the police were probably justified in their actions. It doesn't sound like she was going peacefully by any stretch.
I mean, you asked

Deleted_User 08-27-2005 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Corganist

Um, because the person said that the girl was resisting arrest? Instead of submitting to the dog, (who, like I said, is too well-trained to attack at random), she tried to fight it off and get away. Its pretty cut and dried that she was resisting arrest.

i want to see you get mauled my a german shepard and see you submit completely.

Corganist 08-27-2005 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by refills 79 cents
i want to see you get mauled my a german shepard and see you submit completely.
*sigh* No one was getting mauled. Police dogs are trained to grab hold and not let go, not to devour and mutilate. All these "police dogs are scary!" type of arguments are weak as all hell. There is no good reason to try and get away from a police dog once it has a hold of you.

Corganist 08-27-2005 05:52 PM

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Salt Lake City, Utah - Illegal and brutally violent military
 
Quote:

Originally posted by DeviousJ
Dude!

I mean, you asked

But there again, I was talking about the rationale for the 3 officers to restrain her. I wasn't saying "She fought the dog, therefore using the dog was justified." if that's what you're suggesting.

DeviousJ 08-27-2005 06:25 PM

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Salt Lake City, Utah - Illegal and brutally violent m
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Corganist

But there again, I was talking about the rationale for the 3 officers to restrain her. I wasn't saying "She fought the dog, therefore using the dog was justified." if that's what you're suggesting.

...no, I'm talking about you saying 'she was struggling with the dog, therefore she was resisting arrest and they were probably justified in using what some may see as excessive force'


This is just getting silly

Nimrod's Son 08-27-2005 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by refills 79 cents
i want to see you get mauled my a german shepard and see you submit completely.
I still wish to see the bite marks

Because you know if there are any they will be posted to raveblogs immediately

DeviousJ 08-27-2005 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nimrod's Son
I still wish to see the bite marks

Because you know if there are any they will be posted to raveblogs immediately

Well there shouldn't really be any, but that's probably not what would be going throguh most people's minds at the time

And now, kitties


Corganist 08-27-2005 06:51 PM

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Salt Lake City, Utah - Illegal and brutally violent m
 
Quote:

Originally posted by DeviousJ


...no, I'm talking about you saying 'she was struggling with the dog, therefore she was resisting arrest and they were probably justified in using what some may see as excessive force'

A person who refuses to submit to police authority, be it verbal command, a dog, or physical restaint is resisting arrest or at the very least obstructing government operations. That is a fact, and is not open for debate. I really don't see what you're trying to call me out on here. Are you saying she wasn't resisting arrest? Are you saying that even if she was resisting arrest that they shouldn't have done anything to her? I don't even think you even know what your argument is here. It just reeks of "cops=bad" to me. Tell me why my proposition is not the most likely description of the situation.

Hillzy 08-27-2005 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Corganist

*sigh* No one was getting mauled. Police dogs are trained to grab hold and not let go, not to devour and mutilate. All these "police dogs are scary!" type of arguments are weak as all hell. There is no good reason to try and get away from a police dog once it has a hold of you.

You might want to do a bit more reading before making a statement like that.

DeviousJ 08-27-2005 07:21 PM

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Salt Lake City, Utah - Illegal and brutally v
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Corganist

A person who refuses to submit to police authority, be it verbal command, a dog, or physical restaint is resisting arrest or at the very least obstructing government operations. That is a fact, and is not open for debate. I really don't see what you're trying to call me out on here. Are you saying she wasn't resisting arrest? Are you saying that even if she was resisting arrest that they shouldn't have done anything to her? I don't even think you even know what your argument is here. It just reeks of "cops=bad" to me. Tell me why my proposition is not the most likely description of the situation.

Holy shit

Orenthal James 08-28-2005 06:45 AM

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Salt Lake City, Utah - Illegal and brutally v
 
Quote:

Originally posted by DeviousJ


Holy shit

you need to back up loaded statements like that with sources, buddy

pastry sharp 08-29-2005 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Corganist

There is no good reason to try and get away from a police dog once it has a hold of you.

right... other than the fact that a big police dog has a hold on you, which might be a little scary, and in that state, a person might not be thinking, "you know this dog is highly trained, i should just lie here, so that nothing bad happens to me". was the girl resisting arrest? you don't know that and neither do i. what we do know is that it would be a rational response to try and protect yourself from a dog, if that is what happened. i would think that an officer, trained to handle a dog, would recognize the difference between fear and malice, and act accordingly. officers have to act with discretion, even if they are in harms way. if they are incapable of doing that, or if that make decision not to dol that, then they are bad at their jobs, and should seek out another means of employment.

Corganist 08-29-2005 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by pastry sharp

right... other than the fact that a big police dog has a hold on you, which might be a little scary, and in that state, a person might not be thinking, "you know this dog is highly trained, i should just lie here, so that nothing bad happens to me". was the girl resisting arrest? you don't know that and neither do i.

Based on the description of the incident we're working with here, there's no doubt she was resisting arrest by fighting the dog off. All this talk about what a natural reaction it is to be frightened by dogs does nothing at all to excuse that. It might explain why she resisted, but that's completely unimportant. I might be deathly afraid of guns, but if a cop points his gun at me in an official capacity there's no way that I'd be justified in trying to take that gun from him because of that fear.

Future Boy 08-30-2005 09:40 AM

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Salt Lake City, Utah - Illegal and brutal
 
Quote:

Originally posted by DeviousJ


Holy shit


Nimrod's Son 08-30-2005 09:43 AM

I would just like to point out that unsubstantiated claims on blogs are now considered viable news sources

Future Boy 08-30-2005 09:46 AM

Nimrod questioning a source? NO WAY!

pastry sharp 08-30-2005 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Corganist

Based on the description of the incident we're working with here, there's no doubt she was resisting arrest by fighting the dog off. All this talk about what a natural reaction it is to be frightened by dogs does nothing at all to excuse that. It might explain why she resisted, but that's completely unimportant. I might be deathly afraid of guns, but if a cop points his gun at me in an official capacity there's no way that I'd be justified in trying to take that gun from him because of that fear.

it's far less likely that a person would try to disarm a police officer than to fend off an animal. furthermore, i question whether or not trying to get away from a police dog is really "resisting arrest" because a dog is not an officer of the law. it is a tool of law enforcement.

Nimrod's Son 08-30-2005 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Future Boy
Nimrod questioning a source? NO WAY!
I know, I should go with the flow and agree with any unsubstantiated claim that supports my political viewpoint

Quiet CD 08-30-2005 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nimrod's Son

I know, I should go with the flow and agree with any unsubstantiated claim that supports my political viewpoint

now that sounds like the nimrod's son we all know

Future Boy 08-31-2005 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nimrod's Son

I know, I should go with the flow and agree with any unsubstantiated claim that supports my political viewpoint


It's better than dismissing substantiated claims that dont support your political viewpoint.

Nimrod's Son 08-31-2005 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Future Boy

substantiated

:confused:

Esty 08-31-2005 02:56 PM

Esty has a bad habit of not logging out.
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Nimrod's Son

:confused:

Generally speaking, not this issue in particular. Seeing as how you said "political viewpoint" and this incident really isnt a political discussion (to me at least). I'd say this thread should be on the gen board.


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