Lost Season Finale

[Ugly]

Originally Posted by smashingjj

I'm not convinced at all there is a 'NotLocke'. Is there proof that Locke isn't one and the same person?

The 'you found your loophole' line confirms that NotLocke is the other guy from the first scene

[commando]

ok so Locke is dead, Ben is yet again a pawn, Juliet may or may not be dead ( I personally predict the blast sent them all back to 2007), Jacob is attacked, and his brother the shapeshifter is reigning terror on the island. Is the shapeshifter also the smoke monster? Can he only assume the forms of dead bodies on the island? (christian shepherd, boone, claire, ben's daughter, etc; and if so, how do you explain "Walt's ghost"?)

Furthermore, Milo's dad, the Dharma scientist, does not use his left arm in some of the training videos.

[Ugly]

If you wanna buy into Smokey the Monster being all the apparitions, you could also assume that it would have been Kate's horse, Sayid's cat, Sawyer's boar, and Hurley's buddy Dave (who was never alive to begin with).

I think Juliet is dead simply because the actress is in the V remake which got picked up for a series by NBC. (It also stars former Firefly-alums Alan Tyduck and the hot hooker chick. I'm totally down with the hot space hooker - the actress' name escapes me, Monica Bren-something- but if Alan / Wash / Steve the Pirate is on V, it's going to put some serious cramps into his way-awesome role as Alpha on Dollhouse. He was only in two episodes, but he blew everyone off the screen.)

[Ugly]

Oh, and Terry O'Quinn said that Locke is dead. However, he is not a writer for the show, but here's his take on it. Which is probably right. So Locke does die a pathetic loser.

Lost Media Terry O’quinn interview about Locke

“I think, unfortunately, I think it’s ended for Locke. But I’m still there, as far as I know,” O’Quinn said. “I don’t know how it’s going to end for this other guy. I’m sad. I miss John Locke, poor guy. He was a pawn.”
...

“Your guess is honestly as good as mine is,” he said. “There’s going to be some confrontation that will somehow, I’m guessing, have to do with Jack or Locke or something like that. I think these guys are just setting up good and evil. It’s the way Locke said in the very beginning of the show: One is light and one is dark. Two sides. I think that’s what we’ve got.”

[Travis Meeks]

why was it so important that Ben killed Jacob? Why didn't Not Locke just do it himself?

[Ugly]

Not sure on that one. Choice. Free will, maybe. Ethereal beings can't kill other ethereal beings, so they need a flesh and blood human to do it.

[SlingeroGuitaro]

i think for some reason jacobs buddy could not kill jacob himself. at the beginning of the episode when he said he wanted to kill him, well, why couldnt he?

[SlingeroGuitaro]

interesting quote from Locke in the pilot:

Anyone remember him teaching Walt how to play backgammon on the beach? Here's essentially what he said:

"This game's a better game than checkers... This is the oldest game in the world, it's more than 5,000 years old - that's older than Jesus Christ. Two players, two sides. One's light, the other's dark. Their dice weren't made of plastic, theirs were made of bones."

Kind of lends credence to the idea that even in the first season, they knew where they were going with things and were dropping hints even back then. At the time, not understanding how the writers worked, that just seemed like a throwaway bonding bit to establish Locke as the know-it-all of the group. Now it seems downright eerie.

So the question is, how reliable do you think the Season 1 episodes are in terms of story continuity? How much of the details about, say, the smoke monster, have evolved since that first few episodes? Is the early stuff just to build it up as a monster rather than to be able to gain clues into what it really is?

[SlingeroGuitaro]

[topleybird]

No, absolutely no one remembers that.

[Trotskilicious]

Least of all the writers that have probably turned over at least once since then.

[AndySlash]

not really. Cuse/Lindelhof have written the majority since S1 (usually the eps that are deemed "important" to the overall story arc), about 6-8 a season. There really isn't much turnover to speak of, writing wise. Gregg Nations has written a couple, but he also keeps track of all the things in the Lost "universe" so when other writers are creating an episode, he's there to keep them informed.

[Trotskilicious]

If you think there's an intricate plan that had been settled on from the start you're quite mistaken.

[AndySlash]

I think there was/is a plan and you are mistaken. Was it highly detailed or intricate? No. Will everything be tied up in a neat little bow at series end? No. But Cuse/Lindelhof have said numerous times over the years that they know the shows endpoint and the benchmarks needed to get there. There has been a loose structure all along. Those first 2 1/2 years had some rough spots, but once they got an end date, the show has been chugging right along.

[rolmos]

I seem to remember one of the writers saying that at the end of season one, when Locke saw the light inside the hatch light up, they had no idea where to go next. The majority of the main storyline elements were written before season 2. That explains how different season one was from the rest of the series.

There are only two things I want to see answered in the end: Why did the smoke monster drag Locke underground and then suddenly let go? and Why it killed Mr. Eko? The rest of the story can go whichever way it wants now that Locke is dead. I guess Jack is destined to be the hero that saves everyone.

[AndySlash]

Originally Posted by rolmos

I seem to remember one of the writers saying that at the end of season one, when Locke saw the light inside the hatch light up, they had no idea where to go next. The majority of the main storyline elements were written before season 2. That explains how different season one was from the rest of the series.

If you can find it, I'd love to see it as it seems to go against everything I've read from them.

Every season has been completely different, with a different focus. Survivors -> The Hatch -> The Others -> The Freighter -> Dharma/Time.

This show has kind of been one big "peeling back" of the story elements. Or like a camera panning back to reveal more and more of the real structure of things.

Again, I'm not saying everything has been planned out to the minute detail- that would simply be impossible. But I don't doubt they've had a general idea of how things would play out since the start (or near the start).

Locke/Smoke Monster- IF Smokey is the "man in black" we saw (or an agent), it could be argued that that is how he knew Locke could be manipulated and things went from there. As for Eko... the man in black definitely seemed to want to protect the island from humans, and Eko, not at all forgiving of his sins, clearly did not fit MIB's ideals and was disposed of.

[Trotskilicious]

Originally Posted by AndySlash

I think there was/is a plan and you are mistaken. Was it highly detailed or intricate? No.

I specifically said intricate for a reason.

There's always a plan.

[Trotskilicious]

I also find it quite strange that Netphoria of all places loves this show when every time I see it written about people are saying it's become quite awful. like Netphoria lives in some kind of bizzaro world where great things are overrated and completely ridiculous balderdash is wonderful. Of course I find this show to be particularly popular among people in their 20s and 30s so I guess it just stands to reason that Netphoria has a nearly 4 page thread about it (what is there to talk about? I don't get it). I just can't possibly understand the fascination with this show. Even with the first season when they were just plane crash survivors I wasn't moved. I saw a later episode with a bunker and a mysterious code (it's always mysterious on this show) that was just plain awful. After that I stopped giving it chances. I think TV episodes should be able to stand on their own and being forced to make a date with the idiot box every week so you can just keep up with the ongoing plot is just yuck.

I seem to remember one of the writers saying that at the end of season one, when Locke saw the light inside the hatch light up, they had no idea where to go next.

This is how most serialized fiction is written. I'm a big fan of comics and it's always like that, you drop plot threads around like crazy and pick one of them up when you need a story idea. Also doing completely figurative vague things like this Locke backgammon thing that Slingero posted about is a serial writers wet dream. It really means nothing on the face of it, but will be perhaps be attached to some kind of serious deeper meaning later by fans and make you look like you knew precisely where you were going with it the whole time.

Cliffhangers like the one you posted are also a good tool to use because you can spend a few months thinking about where to go next.

[AndySlash]

In that sense, then, it pays to go back and watch the seasons all over again. There are so many comments or events that mean one thing at the time but with the knowledge gained since are viewed in a completely different way.

The writing on this show has been incredible, for the most part. I find it hard to believe you can't get into the show or understand its appeal when it seems to be right up your alley.

[Trotskilicious]

I like lawyer shows.

I don't like having to watch something every single week just to follow along. It gets irritating. I can't even follow serialized shows I've enjoyed before because of this, it's like "oh well this is on but shit I haven't seen an episode in a month and a half so I can't watch it." This is why the last network show (that wasn't a cartoon) that I followed with any degree was Boston Legal because I could forget to watch it for like a month and remember it was on and still enjoy an episode and not be completely confused by it.

how is it up my alley though

[AndySlash]

you just expounded on serialized comics. Lost is a serialized comic in video form.

but then you edited and said you don't like shows like that, so n/m

[AndySlash]

also, fwiw, weekly lost threads were usually 2-4 pages a couple years ago. we're lucky to get 15 posts in a Lost thread today.

[AndySlash]

partly because idiots like Banana and Monte come in talking about shit they have no clue on, ruining the thread.

[Trotskilicious]

Originally Posted by AndySlash

you just expounded on serialized comics. Lost is a serialized comic in video form.

but then you edited and said you don't like shows like that, so n/m

Yeah comics are different and I'm older now and am not particularly fond of the mainstream titles that just have this serialized story and unbelievably burdened continuity that goes on forever. I like Preacher and Transmet which begin and end (even if they meander a while and aren't completely concerned with resolving the story as soon as possible, gives this kind of sprawling narrative that is actually really enjoyable), and then you have watchmen and v that are basically novels that have a meticulously plotted story. I like the Warren Ellis issues of The Authority but after that I just couldn't give a toss even if the series is still being published. Dif'ren't Strokes right.

As far as the length of lost threads that's just the dropping of the board public because people are growing up and winning at life and we don't have any losers to come in and replace them because the band broke up and everyone in the world hates billy corgan.

I will say that once Lost ends I may actually enjoy it in a DVD box set form. But that'll be like 500 dollars so I'll probably never see it. C'est la vie!

[topleybird]

Originally Posted by SlingeroGuitaro

Kind of lends credence to the idea that even in the first season, they knew where they were going with things and were dropping hints even back then. At the time, not understanding how the writers worked, that just seemed like a throwaway bonding bit to establish Locke as the know-it-all of the group. Now it seems downright eerie.

To give a less sarcastic reply to this, I've never seen a Lost discussion online where people thought that moment was "a throwaway bonding bit"; it's always discussed as being central to the series, even as people went to increasingly ridiculous extremes to see black and white symbolism in everything. I remember people wondering if Bernard and Rose had something to do with it! Here's Lostpedia's article on black and white in the series:

Black and white - Lostpedia - The Lost Encyclopedia

At a glance I'd say half or more of those are unintentional, but stuff like Locke's stones, the stones with the skeletons in the cave, the two faces on the mural, and so on are obviously deliberate.

So, basically: yes, we remember.

Now, having not seen this season, I have a question: Ben and Widmore can't kill each other, right? Has that been explained in some other way or is it related to this Jacob and otherguy? Also if otherguy is the smoke monster then is Jacob a white smokemonster and will they have a swirling smokefight like the two Koshes did in Babylon 5 OMG

[AndySlash]

Originally Posted by topleybird

Ben and Widmore can't kill each other, right? Has that been explained in some other way or is it related to this Jacob and otherguy?

We don't know yet. It may be simply "rules" that will never be explained. We do know man-in-black couldn't kill Jacob on his own- he had to find a loophole. So whatever those rules are seem to apply to a few people.

Also if otherguy is the smoke monster then is Jacob a white smokemonster and will they have a swirling smokefight like the two Koshes did in Babylon 5 OMG

While some think man-in-black is Smokey, I tend to think the smoke monster is a separate entity that either one of them can control somehow. Locke has said what he saw when he was in the smoke monster's cave was a white light, not a black one.

[topleybird]

Like does THE ISLAND just keep finding two people who hate each other and put a powerful mojo on them that prevents them from directly causing each other's deaths, because it's funny?

Edit: sorry, Andy, didn't see your response before my dumb comment. Thanks for the answer!

[Travis Meeks]

I wonder why the man in black didn't possess Locke when Locke was killed by Ben

[Travis Meeks]

I think the man in black was imprisoned in Horace's cabin by Jacob and was the entity that Ben and Locke found when they entered the cabin and who was possessing Christian's body. Someone freed the man in black by covering part of the surrounding ash circle with dirt so that he could escape and take Locke's body.

I don't think the smoke monster is the man in black. It looks like Richard was probably on the black rock so he has a good understanding of the island's history and of the man in black. I doubt Richard would just refer to the smoke monster as a security device without fear and camp outside of the temple if he knew the monster and the man were the same being. If the man in black hated people and he was in fact the smoke monster why wouldn't the smoke monster just go ape shit and kill everyone on the island.

[AndySlash]

Originally Posted by Travis Meeks

I wonder why the man in black didn't possess Locke when Locke was killed by Ben

Because he had to be taken back to the island first? 2008 On-Island Locke has been the man-in-black the entire time...

Or am I misunderstanding something here?

Originally Posted by Travis Meeks

I think the man in black was imprisoned in Horace's cabin by Jacob and was the entity that Ben and Locke found when they entered the cabin and who was possessing Christian's body. Someone freed the man in black by covering part of the surrounding ash circle with dirt so that he could escape and take Locke's body.

I definitely think it was MIB in Christian's form in the cabin. Someone (Claire?) opened the ash-ring.

But I think Jacob has possessed/used smokey to possess Chrisitan's body at points as well. We've seen Christian in white shoes and in dark shoes.

The possession thing is why it has been stressed that bodies are buried on the island. If a body isn't, it can be possessed. Everyone we have seen in manifestations of the original character has had their bodies above ground- Yemi, Christian, Locke...