I don't feel like watching the tv show 24 anymore.

[Debaser]

But I don't know if its because I've grown tired of the seemingly make-up-as-they-go plot or does it stem from the fact that the creators of the show are right-wing neoconservative nutjobs.

Reading this New Yorker profile of Joel Surnow, "Whatever it Takes", turned my stomach.

Not only does the show sanction illegal tactics, but worse, it falsely shows that torture is justified and it works. Right wing pundits laud this pure fantasy torture-porn show.

"The average American out there loves the show 24. OK? They love Jack Bauer. They love 24. In my mind that’s close to a national referendum that it’s OK to use tough tactics against high-level Al Qaeda operatives as we’re going to get."- Laura Ingraham, right wing nutjob radio host

“I am absolutely convinced…no good intelligence is going to come from abusive practices. I think history tells us that. I think the empirical evidence of the last five years, hard years, tell us that.”-Lt. Gen. John Kimmons, the Army Deputy Chief of Staff for Intelligence
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...090601442.html

The United States Military Academy at West Point yesterday confirmed that Brigadier General Patrick Finnegan recently travelled to California to meet producers of the show, broadcast on the Fox channel. He told them that promoting illegal behaviour in the series - apparently hugely popular among the US military - was having a damaging effect on young troops.-The Independent (UK)

In five seasons of "24", there have been sixty-seven torture scenes, and all of them are portrayed as effective, productive, and justified. Military cadets, weaned on '24", now tend to see nothing wrong with it. Soldiers in the field have internalized the show's ethics. One witness to this is Tony Lagouranis, a former army interrogator in Iraq. He tells Mayer that some soldiers in Iraq just replicated the "24" scenes in real life - even though torture is still nominally illegal under American law for the regular military (the Bush administration has created a special CIA torture unit to do the job instead).-Andrew Sullivan

[tcm]

Originally Posted by Debaser

But I don't know if its because I've grown tired of the seemingly make-up-as-they-go plot or does it stem from the fact that the creators of the show are right-wing neoconservative nutjobs.

i thought the former was like the show's primary charm. i reckon it must be the latter.

[homechicago]

that ingram lady is crazy. i've never watched it, and i probably won't now. i never watched west wing because that seemed a pointedly preachy show for the far left.

alias was decent though.

[Debaser]

Originally Posted by homechicago

I never watched west wing because that seemed a pointedly preachy show for the far left.

Preachy? yes.
Left? yes.
Far left? no.

The West Wing was a great show (before Sorkin left).

[homechicago]

Originally Posted by Debaser

Preachy? yes.
Left? yes.
Far left? no.

The West Wing was a great show (before Sorkin left).

do you watch studio 60?

[Debaser]

Originally Posted by homechicago

do you watch studio 60?

Watched the first 5 or 6 episodes before getting bored. While the preachy-ness of Sorkin seemed plausible in the grand setting of the White House -- it comes off as pretty grating and awkward in a program about a sketch comedy show. It also really disturbed me how the skits within the made up show were not funny at all. There were likeable characters and maybe I'll rent it when it comes out on dvd.

[Eulogy]

this is so fucking stupid. It's a TELEVISION SHOW. There are tons of TV shows that portray things that obviously should not be done in real life. I can't believe this is cause for discussion.

[Nimrod's Son]

you should never watch prison break because it supports prison breaking values

[tcm]

Originally Posted by Eulogy

this is so fucking stupid. It's a TELEVISION SHOW. There are tons of TV shows that portray things that obviously should not be done in real life. I can't believe this is cause for discussion.

i don't know of what shows you're thinking but if they're portraying these things in positive lights then i certainly don't feel like watching them. like i wouldn't feel like watching a show that had heroic Nazis, would you? cool, sexy Nazis who get the job done? would you?

[Eulogy]

Originally Posted by tcm

i don't know of what shows you're thinking but if they're portraying these things in positive lights then i certainly don't feel like watching them. like i wouldn't feel like watching a show that had heroic Nazis, would you? cool, sexy Nazis who get the job done? would you?

hmmmm

i'll get back to you on that

[Eulogy]

but on 24, the torture scenes are most often done by the bad guys. aren't they? and whenever jack tortures someone, it tends to bite him in the ass. well not all the time. but sometimes!

i dunno.

[tcm]

i mean maybe if it were a satire but not if they were playing it straight.

[neopryn]

jack has brutally tortured his brother twice this year

[Eulogy]

Originally Posted by neopryn

jack has brutally tortured his brother twice this year

well he deserved it



but now he's catching shit for it. i guess only because he died. whatever. i just think it's stupid to assume that everyone thinks torture is cool now because it's on TV.

[neopryn]

it is stupid, but the show's really boring me with the constant torturing.

[Eulogy]

Originally Posted by neopryn

it is stupid, but the show's really boring me with the constant torturing.

i dunno....the last two weeks, the ends of the show have been pretty sweet.

it does feel like it's running out of steam though.

[Corganist]

Originally Posted by Debaser

In five seasons of "24", there have been sixty-seven torture scenes, and all of them are portrayed as effective, productive, and justified.

Untrue. There have been several scenes where they've tortured people and it didn't work. Jack's been tortured to death once and then tortured in Chinese prison for two years and he didn't crack. One time they tortured the son of the Secretary of Defense, and he didn't crack because he didn't want to tell his dad he was gay. They tortured Christopher Henderson for like 2 or 3 episodes in a row last season, and he never cracked. And I'm pretty sure there are more.

[tcm]

i can't believe you guys are losing faith in this show!! and i just fucking got to the party, that's soooo unfair!!

[Nate the Grate]

And FWIW, the torturing of Jack's brother didn't get them the information they really needed, so that wasn't all that affective either.

[tcm]

worked pretty good for Fayed though. Jack should consider incorporating power tools into his repertoire.

[avian chaos]

Originally Posted by Debaser

But I don't know if its because I've grown tired of the seemingly make-up-as-they-go plot or does it stem from the fact that the creators of the show are right-wing neoconservative nutjobs.

All of the above, plus the fact that it's just the same shit, different season, rinse and repeat.

[Debaser]

Originally Posted by Eulogy

I can't believe this is cause for discussion.

This is not worthy of discussion? Have you checked out 90% of the other topics on this board?

[Debaser]

Originally Posted by Corganist

Untrue. There have been several scenes where they've tortured people and it didn't work. Jack's been tortured to death once and then tortured in Chinese prison for two years and he didn't crack. One time they tortured the son of the Secretary of Defense, and he didn't crack because he didn't want to tell his dad he was gay. They tortured Christopher Henderson for like 2 or 3 episodes in a row last season, and he never cracked. And I'm pretty sure there are more.

You're right, they do show torture sometimes working and not working. But I think the overall justification still comes through. They still use torture almost as a first resort, despite it not working sometimes (and in reality, not just sometimes, torture barely ever works).

[wHATcOLOR]

television has a pin

[Smashing Turnip]

There's nothing worse than 24 except the OC. I'd prefer to be sexually molested rather than watch the OC.

[Nimrod's Son]

Originally Posted by Debaser

You're right, they do show torture sometimes working and not working. But I think the overall justification still comes through. They still use torture almost as a first resort, despite it not working sometimes (and in reality, not just sometimes, torture barely ever works).

you know, if there really were a bunch of nukes in the US and they were going to go off in a couple of hours and the government caught someone with information that could save cities, i'm probably pretty sure i'd be ok with whatever the fuck they did to him to get the information to stop millions of deaths

but hey, maybe you'd prefer they give him a flower and a peace sign. that's cool too.

[Debaser]

Originally Posted by Nimrod's Son

you know, if there really were a bunch of nukes in the US and they were going to go off in a couple of hours and the government caught someone with information that could save cities, i'm probably pretty sure i'd be ok with whatever the fuck they did to him to get the information to stop millions of deaths

but hey, maybe you'd prefer they give him a flower and a peace sign. that's cool too.

The big problem with this myth is that 1) the scenario never happens and 2) it obliquely promotes using torture in non-ticking time bomb scenarios in real life.

More dispelling of your argument here:
The Myth of the Ticking Time Bomb

or just rent this classic historical movie:
http://uaflibrary.us/moviebrowser/co...%20Algiers.jpg

[Effloresce]

Surnow said that he found the Clinton years obnoxious. “Hollywood under Clinton—it was like he was their guy,” he said. “He was the yuppie, baby-boomer narcissist that all of Hollywood related to.” During those years, Surnow recalled, he had countless arguments with liberal colleagues, some of whom stopped speaking to him. “My feeling is that the liberals’ ideas are wrong,” he said. “But they think I’m evil.” Last year, he contributed two thousand dollars to the losing campaign of Pennsylvania’s hard-line Republican senator Rick Santorum, because he “liked his position on immigration.” His favorite bumper sticker, he said, is “Except for Ending Slavery, Fascism, Nazism & Communism, War Has Never Solved Anything.”

eww

This nutcase is the co-creator of 24?

[Eulogy]

Originally Posted by Debaser

This is not worthy of discussion? Have you checked out 90% of the other topics on this board?

no, i meant IRL. i can't believe people are blaming 24 for people's thoughts on torture. and that people are saying members of military think they are jack bauer.

[Debaser]

Originally Posted by Eulogy

and that people are saying members of military think they are jack bauer.

Yeah, those people, what the fuck do they know? Like that former army interrogator in Iraq who eye witnessed this stuff. And army generals calling the show out. And the right wing pundits that go on air saying that this show is exactly what we should be doing. I can't believe how anybody could think that some members of the military would internalize the ethics of 24.