Moralist propaganda if you will, right up there with Karma and God!

i thought everyone realizes that after 16

Originally posted by patrick
i thought everyone realizes that after 16

Yep! But it doesn't really sink in until you're twenties. When even though you saw it coming, you realize that as a totally unremarkable and insignificant person, you have absolutely zero chance of improving or changing. This *******s everything, from you're rather bland personality, you're empty endlessly repeating thoughts, to your complete lack of contribution to society.

You can choose a ready guide
In some celestial voice
You can choose not to decide
You still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears
And kindness that can kill
I will choose a path that's clear
I will choose free will.

Originally posted by Fathoms (unadored)


Yep! But it doesn't really sink in until you're twenties. When even though you saw it coming, you realize that as a totally unremarkable and insignificant person, you have absolutely zero chance of improving or changing. This icludes everything, from you're rather bland personality, you're empty endlessly repeating thoughts, to your complete lack of contribution to society. maybe if you're a loser with no sense of self-worth, yeah

free will has nothing to do with thinking you can't change yourself

Originally posted by Fathoms (unadored)
Moralist propaganda if you will, right up there with Karma and God!

i remember you used to post all the time. where've you been guy?

Originally posted by patrick
maybe if you're a loser with no sense of self-worth, yeah

free will has nothing to do with thinking you can't change yourself

predestination sort of dictates that everything you do is inevitable. If one of fates precepts happens to be you aren't particularily bright, it doesn't matter what you do, how hard you try, you are simply doomed. No amount of writhing is ever going to change the fact that every single thing I ever do, including muse foolishly on free-will, was going to happen before i was even born.

Originally posted by Fathoms (unadored)


predestination sort of dictates that everything you do is inevitable. If one of fates precepts happens to be you aren't particularily bright, it doesn't matter what you do, how hard you try, you are simply doomed. No amount of writhing is ever going to change the fact that every single thing I ever do, including muse foolishly on free-will, was going to happen before i was even born. you're digging your own hole, dude. you have a stupidly defeatist point of view towards life, and you have no one to blame but yourself if you don't succeed in whatever it is that makes you happy

Originally posted by Fathoms (unadored)


Yep! But it doesn't really sink in until you're twenties. When even though you saw it coming, you realize that as a totally unremarkable and insignificant person, you have absolutely zero chance of improving or changing. This *******s everything, from you're rather bland personality, you're empty endlessly repeating thoughts, to your complete lack of contribution to society.

how about your shitty spelling, think you can change that?

i FULLY believe that humans are products of their environments

but saying it's impossible to break out of that and move onto something greater? bullshit.

Originally posted by Randall Sandell


i remember you used to post all the time. where've you been guy?

Alien abduction. those bastards finally caught up to me!

<I've been around... I posted sparsely under the SN Firmament and Fathoms for awhile after this SN was taken over by a malevolent entitiy>

Yeah, but none of that shit even matters. Just experience now for what it is.

not going to respond to me, eh?


i win

Originally posted by patrick
you're digging your own hole, dude. you have a stupidly defeatist point of view towards life, and you have no one to blame but yourself if you don't succeed in whatever it is that makes you happy

Not if one of fates precepts is that I am incapable of happiness. I've tried on so many hats, explored every aspect of myself (cept the really scary ones), experienced alot and learned nothing, felt nothing. But when I realized that I am the sum of a given number of parts it all makes perfect sense that I should be this way. I REALLY want to feel passionate about things and embrace life for all it has to offer, because I recognize there is many beautiful things to live for. But I can't feel any of it, I'm consumed in apathy.

But this wasn't really intended to be about me. Take me out of the discussion and all I am saying is that every person alive is the sum of parts, be them physical or metaphysical. Because we are the sum of our parts (genetics, enviroment), everything about us is inevitable.

Originally posted by Fathoms (unadored)


Not if one of fates precepts is that I am incapable of happiness. I've tried on so many hats, explored every aspect of myself (cept the really scary ones), experienced alot and learned nothing, felt nothing. But when I realized that I am the sum of a given number of parts it all makes perfect sense that I should be this way. I REALLY want to feel passionate about things and embrace life for all it has to offer, because I recognize there is many beautiful things to live for. But I can't feel any of it, I'm consumed in apathy.

But this wasn't really intended to be about me. Take me out of the discussion and all I am saying is that every person alive is the sum of parts, be them physical or metaphysical. Because we are the sum of our parts (genetics, enviroment), everything about us is inevitable. you are such a pussy.

you are capable of changing anything about yourself if you want to

you may as well blame your faults on a fire hydrant while you're at it

Originally posted by rosenthal
ugggh i hate this argument. you can do better fathoms.

free will + predestination cancel each other out. its stupid to talk about either one.

free will can't cancel anything out because it doesn't exist. We have will definatley, but it does not come free!

Originally posted by patrick
you are such a pussy.

you are capable of changing anything about yourself if you want to

you may as well blame your faults on a fire hydrant while you're at it

The brain is rather difficult to rewire via analog. While I can intellectually blame all my faults on predestination the point is moot because obviously I don't feel that way. But the question is, what am I going to do about it? You have no idea how hard I've tried. It's not that I'm saying change is impossible anyway, it's that whatever 'changes' that occur are the only things that could happen to begin with. Maybe somehow I'll figure out how to be a better person, that has nothing to do with the basic statement that everything is fixed.

Originally posted by Fathoms (unadored)


The brain is rather difficult to rewire via analog. While I can intellectually blame all my faults on predestination the point is moot because obviously I don't feel that way. But the question is, what am I going to do about it? You have no idea how hard I've tried. It's not that I'm saying change is impossible anyway, it's that whatever 'changes' that occur are the only things that could happen to begin with. Maybe somehow I'll figure out how to be a better person, that has nothing to do with the basic statement that everything is fixed. this is all the talk of someone who has given up. which is your own fault.

what is it you want to achieve, and HOW have you tried to achieve it? do tell

words. given meaning by others, even before I speak them you understand.

there is a fact and that fact is nothing.

Originally posted by Phobophile
words. given meaning by others, even before I speak them you understand.

there is a fact and that fact is nothing. stop with the poetic bullshit please

thanks

Originally posted by patrick
this is all the talk of someone who has given up. which is your own fault.

what is it you want to achieve, and HOW have you tried to achieve it? do tell

So I'm your monkey now am I? I hate how this thread became about me. I always fancied the whole puprose of internet discourse is to put forth an idealized version of oneself rather than reveal to much of ones true identity, some idiot with no life plucking away at the keyboard.

Officially, I'm diagnosed with depression. But I don't think what's wrong with me as some disease or affliction that can support the psychotherapy/pharmacetical industry until my death, I think it's just they way I've turned out. What I've tried to do about it for the past 7 years ranges from the basics (psychotherapy, medication,) to my own exploration of myself. All in the vain attempt to find some sort of validation in anything, something that could help me to define myself, give me purpose, and drive. Self help books are all bust. I've tried reprogramming my mind over the past year and a half to have more positve thoughts, I've tried meditation alot, dream therapy alot, excersize, nourishing my interest in philosphy and cosmology (I like the big concept stuff), minimizing computer and television time (which I know contribute to my insanity), and being outside as much as possible among other things. Everythings failed. Medications are the anti-christ, all my 'therapists' are hacks. Meditation never went anywhere aside from the odd time (along with creative visualization), excersize was just boring as fuck (no endorphins for me) and had minimal effect, positive thinking approaches had minimal effect, my intellectual persuits are hampered by the fact I don't retain infromation (or possess remarkable critical thinking skills) well and I find the things I think are the exact same things I was thinking years ago with no real progress or insight, and my life continues to be absolutely desolate and cut off from everyone around me....!

okay, that's a good start. a few more questions:

- how old are you?
- what is it you feel depression towards? i know it can be very hard to narrow it down...but saying you have general "depression" isn't of much help. you've expressed two main points -- one, that you feel you don't retain information (which is a common reason people hate themselves -- i do and feel the exact same thing..) and two that you feel as though you are unaccomplished an do not have the motivation to go out there and BECOME accomplished. but there must be more to it. on a daily basis, what are the top five things you find you beat yourself up over?
- you didn't answer my previous question; what is it you WANT to accomplish? something i believe is that individuals lead and view their life in two distinct ways -- in the way they actually are and in the way the want to see things. so, what is it you want to accomplish? and this can be completely idealistic....but i'm very curious

i'm glad you're talking this out. talking things out helps.

by the way i'm going to sleep soon, so i may or may not respond to your reply

but i will definitely continue this tomorrow, if you'd like...

blamo has a great philosophy board you might want to check it out

Originally posted by pine trees


how about your shitty spelling, think you can change that?

word check gave me a clean bill of health! <idiothead>

Originally posted by moz
blamo has a great philosophy board you might want to check it out shut the fuck up

all there is anywhere is small little particles and all they do is obey the laws of magnetism.

what is a thought besides a lot of these particles obeying their laws in little particle tunnels in your brain? all a particle can do is head in a direction according to the sum of the forces on it.

all your base are belong to us

Originally posted by rosenthal
ugggh i hate this argument. you can do better fathoms.

free will + predestination cancel each other out. its stupid to talk about either one.

exactly. the difference between free will and predestination is purely semantic.

Originally posted by patrick
i FULLY believe that humans are products of their environments

but saying it's impossible to break out of that and move onto something greater? bullshit.

also fully agree.

http://img110.exs.cx/img110/1899/willy5lu.png

like Mariner, I'm too lazy to actually say anything, so I throw my weight with Julio & Patrick

good lookin out guys

Originally posted by Fathoms (unadored)


The brain is rather difficult to rewire via analog.

you're right, but like you said, it's not impossible. i've done it, twice.


You have no idea how hard I've tried. It's not that I'm saying change is impossible anyway, it's that whatever 'changes' that occur are the only things that could happen to begin with.

whether or not possible changes are pre-fixed is irrelevant. use this metaphorical situation: you're stuck in a room you don't want to be in. you've tried extremely hard, but what you were probably doing was trying to bust through the walls and get out of there. you seem to realize that was not going to get you anywhere, and you're right. but i know that the room has more doors than you think, and if i were you i'd keep up trying to find them instead of stubbornly bashing your head against the wall and saying "woe is me for not being a bulldozer". find some doors, pick one, and go through it. who cares what you call it; "doing it of your own volition", or "predestination playing out". it gets you out of the room you don't want to be in, and that's all that matters.


Officially, I'm diagnosed with depression. But I don't think what's wrong with me as some disease or affliction that can support the psychotherapy/pharmacetical industry until my death, I think it's just they way I've turned out. What I've tried to do about it for the past 7 years ranges from the basics (psychotherapy, medication,) to my own exploration of myself. All in the vain attempt to find some sort of validation in anything, something that could help me to define myself, give me purpose, and drive. Self help books are all bust. I've tried reprogramming my mind over the past year and a half to have more positve thoughts, I've tried meditation alot, dream therapy alot, excersize, nourishing my interest in philosphy and cosmology (I like the big concept stuff), minimizing computer and television time (which I know contribute to my insanity), and being outside as much as possible among other things. Everythings failed. Medications are the anti-christ, all my 'therapists' are hacks. Meditation never went anywhere aside from the odd time (along with creative visualization), excersize was just boring as fuck (no endorphins for me) and had minimal effect, positive thinking approaches had minimal effect, my intellectual persuits are hampered by the fact I don't retain infromation (or possess remarkable critical thinking skills) well and I find the things I think are the exact same things I was thinking years ago with no real progress or insight, and my life continues to be absolutely desolate and cut off from everyone around me....!

you are so right about almost all of that. going back to my dumb metaphor, you realize that most of the things that modern western society tells you are doors are actually walls. congratulations, you are much further along than thousands of other people today will ever get. (i'd disagree with you on exercise, but that's a minor point).

the world is a shitty place, that's just how it is. it's not just ok to be in tune with that reality, it's ideal. knowing that doesn't preclude you living a happy life, in fact it's essential for it. get it in your head now that before you die plenty of shit will go down. with that in mind, make it your life goal to track down the few little things that make you happy, and savor them while they last. if you're really honest with yourself, you might already know what those things are. go for 'em. you only live once, etc., so why not? yeah, you aren't perfect, there are probably plenty of reasons to be unhappy with yourself, but the same goes for absolutely every human ever. why in the hell let that stop you? if anything, set your head so that motivates you. pick some shit about yourself you don't like, and work on it. you may never get all the way there, but that's not the point. the point is giving it a shot and not giving up. just get over yourself, take it one day at a time, don't be too hard on yourself. remember one thing if nothing else; most stuff worth doing is uncomfortable if not downright painful in the short term, but leave you much better off in the long term. honesty, hard work, persistence, all the things that are paramount to taking your best shot at happiness all can really suck in the short term. if there's one thing you drill into your head, make it that thinking structure that sees and evaluates on an even scale both the short-term and the long-term.

free will and fate are both, to a greater or lesser extent, self-fulfilling prophecies

which I think Julio was saying before

determinism is a cop-out.

Originally posted by Mariner


you're right, but like you said, it's not impossible. i've done it, twice.under what circumstances?

congrats on being far more eloquent than i was. i definitely agree with the notion of inflated-self-worth-ruining-one's-sense-of-time. and honestly, i don't consider that his fault -- it starts in elementary school, when you're told that someday, you will be going to high school, and then after that straight to college, in which you will immediately decide on a career and your life will be set. it's a fucking epidemic, for what i'm concerned, that people are trained from an early age to assume that they are great. it's this kind of education that has led to such a huge amount of 12+ year olds being on anti-depressants. i'm convinced it all goes hand in hand.

i must admit to being hypocritical, though. at 19, i, on a day-to-day basis, find my mind/depression winning out. at any given time, i can convince myself that i have the ability to change or conversely that existence is shit and i'm furthering my path to an inactive, unfulfilling life. but what always takes me out of the hole is when i remember i'm 19, and that i don't know shit. and as precocious and intelligent as i'd like to consider myself, i learn more and more every day and, even if i'm not capitlizing on myself now -- it's going to happen. fathoms is 21, if his profile is correct -- he has plenty of time. we all do.

patrick, I'm impressed. although you're not going toe-to-toe with Mariner for 2 whole pages (like I did once ;)), you are revealing some philosophical smarts that I don't think I've seen before. thumbs up sir.

i dont know why you guys are already high-fiving each other. you agreed from the start and have only said in so many words "your circumstances made you, but it's your choice what you will become in the future." which is highly contradictory. either your fate is up to yourself and "circumstances" are just the initial conditions you have to operate around or they have created your personality, aptitude, and disposition and it's basically an illusion if you see yourself forging some favorable future that you, the independent spirit, is responsible. you cant have it both ways. either your mind is a bunch of bits of DNA sculpted by your experiences over the years and continuing to sculpt itself and react to new experiences based on its form thus far, or it is some super-physical object that can make choices with some truly random or status-independent factor.

To bring the debate to a pragmatic level is to do away with the need for any debate altogether. If youre going to throw the question of free will into the air and argue strictly that when you work harder towards a goal you are more likely to achieve it, youre being obvious and you could as well save yourself the time and just type ***. no shit working harder will get you farther and picking a goal will help you focus. It seeming that you "can change yourself" does not negate predestination or support it. Both free will and predestination have provided for this appearance and it's of no use to the discussion to point it out.

Really the only use ive ever had for the free will debate was in the question of morals and what it means to commit and evil act

Originally posted by moz
you agreed from the start and have only said in so many words "your circumstances made you, but it's your choice what you will become in the future." which is highly contradictory.
you managed to write big paragraphs yet didn't manage to explain how this is contradictory.

try again.

free will smith?

page 2

how can your circumstance have made you if you(the being with angel-like freedom) can change your future? has something changed since your were 7 years one second, in x given surroundings with a y given brain, 7 years two seconds, in x given +dx surroundings with a y given + dy(function y of x) brain? either you are on a track with your momentary brains reacting with their surroundings as they must in their momentary condition, or your momentary brains are interacting with your momentary conditions by forces beyond simply what is between your ears that allow for more than one outcome of the same instantaneous crisis.

either circumstances make a man, his thoughts, his abilities, his mind,
or
they are as they appear to be without giving the question much consideration, just an environment the free being is placed in.

admitting that being born into a poor family with poor genes for intelligence and physical condition sets one back is not enough of a concession as to incorporate the argument of predestination and reduce it to a small factor in a free will theory.

simply put, either you are a "product of your environment" in the complete sense, or you are a free being who deals with your environment. just because it can seem at once to the same person that A. a person with X particle arrangement between the two sides of their skull and with X experience, X feelings at the time and X other uncountable yet finite factors must and would always make the same decision and B. as one goes along in life it most definitely seems that your thoughts are more than the sum of a set bunch of miniscule reactions on set tracks does not mean that both theories can at once be true.

Originally posted by patrick
under what circumstances?

i'm not going into detail here. there are a few people on here that can vouch for me. i will say it involves aspects of the human psyche that are pretty big and fundamental.


... it's a fucking epidemic, for what i'm concerned ... it's this kind of education that has led to such a huge amount of 12+ year olds being on anti-depressants. i'm convinced it all goes hand in hand.

right on.


i must admit to being hypocritical, though. at 19, i, on a day-to-day basis, find my mind/depression winning out. at any given time, i can convince myself that i have the ability to change or conversely that existence is shit and i'm furthering my path to an inactive, unfulfilling life. but what always takes me out of the hole is when i remember i'm 19, and that i don't know shit. and as precocious and intelligent as i'd like to consider myself, i learn more and more every day and, even if i'm not capitlizing on myself now -- it's going to happen. fathoms is 21, if his profile is correct -- he has plenty of time. we all do.

i wouldn't call that hypocritical, i'd call that highly aware of reality. i hear you on the age/change stuff. i'm 22(.5), and looking back on age 18-21 (by far the worst period in my life) is like looking back at another person. working on some things can take decades, and i'm still working on the stuff that was at the root of all the shit that went down, but at the same time it's surprising how far you can come in a relatively short time. part of it is probably just the constant personal change that every person experiences throughout their life, but i'd like to think it was helped along a bit by my feeble efforts at recognizing problems and doing what i could to deal with them.

also, circumstance/environment isn't fate

it's as much fate as if I were to pee on your face

which I'm planning on doing

<img src=http://members.madasafish.com/~paulhem/gay/monster%20cocks/big%20white%20horse%20hung.jpg>


free will makes me want to die :cry:

Originally posted by Axis of Action
also, circumstance/environment isn't fate

it's as much fate as if I were to pee on your face

which I'm planning on doing

as powerful as an argument as that may seem to you, in the theory of "fate" its as i said before a given arrangement of mind reacting to given input. the fact that you are railroaded through time by the unforgivingly singular possible outcome of any set of circumstances (here i dont mean your car breaking down, but everything in existence) is not contradicted by the fact that the track that is our universe will lead you to pee on my face, or by the fact that my given particle arrangement and its interactions with the particle arrangement of all else would lead me to show signs of anger, or to display the refusal to submit to forces beyond my illusion of control my face being peed on. it is irrelevent whether your particles lead you to do something and it is irrelevent whether my particles lead me to react in a way that would seem quite predictable and fitting with a free-will theory.

Originally posted by moz


simply put, either you are a "product of your environment" in the complete sense, or you are a free being who deals with your environment. just because it can seem at once to the same person that A. a person with X particle arrangement between the two sides of their skull and with X experience, X feelings at the time and X other uncountable yet finite factors must and would always make the same decision and B. as one goes along in life it most definitely seems that your thoughts are more than the sum of a set bunch of miniscule reactions on set tracks does not mean that both theories can at once be true.

you're forgetting quantum physics.

heh, that said, i don't see how the 'nature' and 'nurture' models are mutually exclusive. i see it as a complex and dynamic interplay between both. the way a person acts is influenced by his or her surroundings. the way the person acts influences his or her surroundings. it's a positive feedback loop.

Originally posted by Mariner


you're forgetting quantum physics.

heh, that said, i don't see how the 'nature' and 'nurture' models are mutually exclusive. i see it as a complex and dynamic interplay between both. the way a person acts is influenced by his or her surroundings. the way the person acts influences his or her surroundings. it's a positive feedback loop.

i said nothing about nature or nurture. they could fit into either theory.


as for quantum physics it is my understanding that even though things may be worded confusingly sometimes there is always an expressable situation and expressable laws that it must follow and an expressable conclusion to the situation and its laws. the fact that we cant measure with human devices both the location and speed of a particle at once and other such facts have confused people into thinking all kinds of ridiculous things. you can always scale things down a level to find an event's "railroad tracks". if it seems to you that you really are making a decision on a hot algerian beach and that it could go either way, one must only trace the reaction of all the quarks in one's being fromt he finger on the trigger back to the mind, where there is likely a great jumble that will never be expressed on paper but that is still singular and factual and not random

Originally posted by Fathoms (unadored)


Yep! But it doesn't really sink in until you're twenties. When even though you saw it coming, you realize that as a totally unremarkable and insignificant person, you have absolutely zero chance of improving or changing.

not with that attitude, mister!

point is, it doesn't matter if that is true. if i think it isn't, that is my reality.

Originally posted by moz


as powerful as an argument as that may seem to you, in the theory of "fate" its as i said before a given arrangement of mind reacting to given input. the fact that you are railroaded through time by the unforgivingly singular possible outcome of any set of circumstances (here i dont mean your car breaking down, but everything in existence) is not contradicted by the fact that the track that is our universe will lead you to pee on my face, or by the fact that my given particle arrangement and its interactions with the particle arrangement of all else would lead me to show signs of anger, or to display the refusal to submit to forces beyond my illusion of control my face being peed on. it is irrelevent whether your particles lead you to do something and it is irrelevent whether my particles lead me to react in a way that would seem quite predictable and fitting with a free-will theory.

you're stuck in newtonian physics.

you simply cannot prove that any given situation has one possible outcome. you can only say in hindsight, "hey, that was the only possible way things could have worked out."

i simply cannot prove that any given situation has myriad possible outcomes that can be influenced by the action of an entity with independent agency.

so the predetermination theory is as much a leap of faith as the free will theory.

and again, i'd say the difference between the two theories is a purely human construct and a semantic difference, not a difference in absolute meaning.

the moment "physics" was uttered is the point where the conversation has gone over my head.

<img src=http://members.madasafish.com/~paulhem/gay/monster%20cocks/big%20white%20horse%20hung.jpg>


free will makes me want to die :cry:

Originally posted by patrick
the moment "physics" was uttered is the point where the conversation has gone over my head.

seriously

I'm just going to keep threatening face urination

Originally posted by moz


i said nothing about nature or nurture. they could fit into either theory.


as for quantum physics it is my understanding that even though things may be worded confusingly sometimes there is always an expressable situation and expressable laws that it must follow and an expressable conclusion to the situation and its laws. the fact that we cant measure with human devices both the location and speed of a particle at once and other such facts have confused people into thinking all kinds of ridiculous things. you can always scale things down a level to find an event's "railroad tracks". if it seems to you that you really are making a decision on a hot algerian beach and that it could go either way, one must only trace the reaction of all the quarks in one's being fromt he finger on the trigger back to the mind, where there is likely a great jumble that will never be expressed on paper but that is still singular and factual and not random

i see what you're saying. but i do not think that the fact that there exists a concrete reality external to the human consciousness means that sentient beings cannot navigate the railroad tracks of an absolute universe the way a train navigates the complex rail network of, say, the north american continent.

it is a difference in absolute meaning if you havent naively(though still possibly correctly) already written yourself off as a being in a moral vacuum, a world without a god.

without addressing the subject of god the conclusion that there is no free will negates all morality.


as for "newtonian physics", everything we've observed and everything we know about a single particle has only led us to believe that it follows set laws governing it's behavior, that it never does something for no reason, and that under a net force (i use the term broadly here; i might substitute "given circumstance") it will set off in a given direction. my argument has nothing to do with how small of a particle theyve found so far or the probability in our detecting a given outcome without knowledge of every factor, but rests in the simple and hardly groundless assumption that there are laws governing physical behavior on any scale that can be reduced to a point of railroading. The fact that there is no finite particle or that on a certain level the laws are not the same as they are when a ball bumps into another only decreases our chances, or eliminates the chance altogether, of predicting an event.

there is nothing between the six walls of my room, which contain my "free" brain, and there is nothing in the universe that does not follow tracks set by physical laws and given conditions.

where, after all, do you see decisions as coming from? do you think the randomness (if randomness really is possible) of particles would save you from determinism? it changes nothing in either case. your particles are going to swerve thus and so and you wont get off your couch and get a job. did your soul swerve them thus? youre just a lot of particles and what will happen will happen.

Hey guys if there was a faultless answer either way we'd have heard it on the news. Lets get back to talking about squelchy squelchy.

glasgowkiss is right. people on netphoria don't have enough credibility to discuss the big issues.

Originally posted by Isle
glasgowkiss is right. people on netphoria don't have enough credibility to discuss the big issues.

I have enough credibility bitch. Im just busy being apathetic.

:mad:

i declare this thread a victory for ME

Originally posted by moz
:mad:

i declare this thread a victory for ME hardly

Originally posted by moz
it is a difference in absolute meaning if you havent naively(though still possibly correctly) already written yourself off as a being in a moral vacuum, a world without a god.

without addressing the subject of god the conclusion that there is no free will negates all morality.


as for "newtonian physics", everything we've observed and everything we know about a single particle has only led us to believe that it follows set laws governing it's behavior, that it never does something for no reason, and that under a net force (i use the term broadly here; i might substitute "given circumstance") it will set off in a given direction. my argument has nothing to do with how small of a particle theyve found so far or the probability in our detecting a given outcome without knowledge of every factor, but rests in the simple and hardly groundless assumption that there are laws governing physical behavior on any scale that can be reduced to a point of railroading. The fact that there is no finite particle or that on a certain level the laws are not the same as they are when a ball bumps into another only decreases our chances, or eliminates the chance altogether, of predicting an event.

there is nothing between the six walls of my room, which contain my "free" brain, and there is nothing in the universe that does not follow tracks set by physical laws and given conditions.

alright, i'll concede then that there's an absolute difference in meaning between our two beliefs. you are way beyond the type of purely semantic fate vs. free will argument that most people get stuck in, i commend you for that. i'm also glad to run into someone else who believes in absolutes and insoluble physical laws; it's all too rare. i still don't see any solid grounds on which to base the belief in the mutual exclusivity between an absolute universe and the agency of sentient beings.

you think a person's life is the sum of all the long single tracks of that person's particles, winding through time with the long single tracks of every other person and their particles.

i think you're right when it comes to everything except human beings. i believe they are unique collections of particles in that they are partially privy to take advantage of switches in the universe's rail system. these switches do not defy the laws of the universe, they are simply a part of the laws that our perceptional abilities only partially grasp and our analytic abilities only now barely have contact with.

Originally posted by patrick
hardly

i knew youd respond to that post

Anyone else have serious issues with the theory of Quantum Physics? I convinced a physicist that it was wrong when i was a little inebriated once. And i cant remember how i did it.

Originally posted by moz
:mad:

i declare this thread a victory for ME
edit: sorry. i can't read

Originally posted by GlasgowKiss
Anyone else have serious issues with the theory of Quantum Physics? I convinced a physicist that it was wrong when i was a little inebriated once. And i cant remember how i did it.

it's as valid as our early theories about the lives of dinosaurs

Originally posted by Mariner


it's as valid as our early theories about the lives of dinosaurs

you're as valid as our early theories about the lives of dinosaurs

Originally posted by Mariner


alright, i'll concede then that there's an absolute difference in meaning between our two beliefs. you are way beyond the type of purely semantic fate vs. free will argument that most people get stuck in, i commend you for that. i'm also glad to run into someone else who believes in absolutes and insoluble physical laws; it's all too rare. i still don't see any solid grounds on which to base the belief in the mutual exclusivity between an absolute universe and the agency of sentient beings.

you think a person's life is the sum of all the long single tracks of that person's particles, winding through time with the long single tracks of every other person and their particles.

i think you're right when it comes to everything except human beings. i believe they are unique collections of particles in that they are partially privy to take advantage of switches in the universe's rail system. these switches do not defy the laws of the universe, they are simply a part of the laws that our perceptional abilities only partially grasp and our analytic abilities only now barely have contact with.

the part where you break away from the view of humans as just another lot of animals gets pretty vague. i see no switches or reason to believe in such switches. why would a human being have super-physical powers and forces behind it that a dog would not have? we are a product of evolution it is said and besides a dog makes decisions as well. they say a dog will not pause forever between two bowls of meat, but it is like saying an enormous boulder will not halt and remain balanced when dropped on a thin edge directly below its center of mass. the dog does not pause simply because the trillions of particles do not form a condition of balance just as you will never find a real boulder that will balance perfectly on a tiny point, though the latter would be much more likely. there is still the possibility, in my opinion, of the right combination of those trillions of particles that would cause a living breathing normal dog to pause forever between the two bowls until death.


there can be no randomness. it is a conviction i hold firmly. i admit your wording of the switch issue provides for the first objection or two that might come up had it been worded differently, but it simply does not hold up. where are these switches and how are they thrown one way or the other? one only has to analyze all that went into the occurance of an event in history to see that it was by no means random or undetermined. why did the man eat the bowl of chili? because he smelled it and was hungry. that is a wrong, incomplete explanation of what happened. when every factor is taken into account, however, there was no point at which he could have not eaten the chili.

Originally posted by moz


the part where you break away from the view of humans as just another lot of animals gets pretty vague. i see no switches or reason to believe in such switches. why would a human being have super-physical powers and forces behind it that a dog would not have? we are a product of evolution

exactly. if we are a product of evolution, why shouldn't the possibility exist that humans are farther along when it comes to independent agency than dogs? what's impossible about humans being better machines? no, humans don't have super-physical "powers". perhaps, though, our brains are constructed so well that we can sometimes manage to have as much influence over ourselves as the rest of the universe.


there can be no randomness. it is a conviction i hold firmly. i admit your wording of the switch issue provides for the first objection or two that might come up had it been worded differently, but it simply does not hold up. where are these switches and how are they thrown one way or the other? one only has to analyze all that went into the occurance of an event in history to see that it was by no means random or undetermined.

i agree in no "randomness" in the conventional sense of the word. i do not believe, however, that the nonexistence of randomness precludes the reality of multiple possibilities, not one set singular track.

my throwaway thread was hit!!!!11

Originally posted by Mariner


exactly. if we are a product of evolution, why shouldn't the possibility exist that humans are farther along when it comes to independent agency than dogs? what's impossible about humans being better machines? no, humans don't have super-physical "powers". perhaps, though, our brains are constructed so well that we can sometimes manage to have as much influence over ourselves as the rest of the universe.


The human brain is part of the that universe though! It's the crescendo of evolutions song. Essentially predestination theory leads to the conclusion that self is an illusion. Any agency or metaphysical aspect of human consciousness is still very much part of reality. And we have to assume that nothing our minds could do violates any reality's set laws. Every aspect of the mind is simply the logical extension of where evolution would lead. .

Originally posted by Fathoms (unadored)


And we have to assume that nothing our minds could do violates any reality's set laws.

Exactly. But what says that free will is not inclu</>ded in those laws?

fuck you all. bolly's gonna claim your soul in 2007 and you can't do shit about it