the MII version sounds really.... grand. its full of power and mystique and what Machina should have been, and then the Judas 0 version is overproduced, making it sound like a tacky Adore B-side.

Originally posted by Sonic Johnny
what Machina should have been
i was totally with you until this part. oh well.

Originally posted by Sonic Johnny
the MII version sounds really.... grand. its full of power and mystique and what Machina should have been, and then the Judas 0 version is overproduced, making it sound like a tacky Adore B-side.

indeed. it is the electronic sound I don't like about the Judas O version, whereas the Machina II version has this rock type charcter and the eerieness of the song. MII version all teh way for me!

Originally posted by Sonic Johnny
the Judas 0 version is overproduced, making it sound like a tacky Adore B-side.

Maybe because it is an Adore B-side?

Originally posted by corganballs
Maybe because it is an Adore B-side?
outtake. but it's not tacky, in any case.

Originally posted by Sonic Johnny
the MII version sounds really.... grand. its full of power and mystique and what Machina should have been, and then the Judas 0 version is overproduced, making it sound like a tacky Adore B-side.

The reason the Judas O version doesn't sound like Machina is because it was from the Adore era.

As for it sounding tacky and over-produced, I completely disagree. To me, over-produced is when there's so much shit in the background, the vocals become incoherent. The entire Machina era was, in one word, over-produced. Practically every song just went too far in terms of production. It became ugly. Whereas the Adore era, in my opinion, was perfectly produced. Every sound, every vocal layering, was clean and clear, and every piece made sense. Judas O Saturnine sounds awesome, and I'm guessing the reason it wasn't on Adore was because the guitar riff was too similar to Ava Adore, and Ava Adore was a better song.

Judas O Saturnine is definitely greater than Machina 2 Saturnine. And in much the same way, the Adore era is much greater than the Machina era.

you want to talk about over-produced, some songs on SD was. Take Mayonaise for example, he would record multiple guitars playing the same thing and play them at once, gives it that powerful sound.

Originally posted by vahn
you want to talk about over-produced, some songs on SD was. Take Mayonaise for example, he would record multiple guitars playing the same thing and play them at once, gives it that powerful sound.

I disagree. While Siamese Dream had insane amounts of layering, it wasn't "over-produced," in my opinion. Over-produced implies a negative connotation, with "over" meaning "too much." I think Siamese Dream had just the right amount of production, much like Adore. Whereas Machina was over-produced, or there was "too much" added. It got to the point in Machina where you can't clearly isolate the "real" instruments from the synthesized ones. In my opinion, what made the Pumpkins so great was the ability to take "real" sound from "real" instruments, and create and "unreal" song. Whereas with Machina-era album songs, even the acoustic guitar sounded too... fiddled-with. I think there's a paticular sense of beauty that comes from pure, unaltered instrumentation that the Pumpkins mastered in all their albums other than Machina and Machina 2. It's a shame that they ended their career with albums that weren't at all true to their craft. It's like, even when you have a song like Cherub Rock, with all those layers of guitars, or Zero, or Geek USA, or Daphne Descends... in the end, you can still appreciate and enjoy the actual sound of guitars. But with Machina, and songs like Sacred + Profane, it's so... plastic.

Originally posted by Reyngel

your posts are over-produced. and besides that, you're wrong.

;)

if you want to hear the epitome of perfect production sit down and listen to Porcelina. Like really listen to it. Fucking christ.

Adore is better than Machina, but I don't think Adore-era songs are better than Machina-era songs overall. Machina 2 has some of the best Pumpkins songs ever written.

MII Satur9 is way better than the Judas O version.

Originally posted by neopryn
if you want to hear the epitome of perfect production sit down and listen to Porcelina. Like really listen to it. Fucking christ. I would have to agree, Porcelina is simply flawless.


... fucking Christ indeed.

actually you don't mean machina II saturnine, you mean saturnine on one of the eps that come with it.

/pumpkinhead

Originally posted by Reyngel

Judas O Saturnine is definitely greater than Machina 2 Saturnine. And in much the same way, the Adore era is much greater than the Machina era.
I can accept someone liking the Judas O Saturnine being better than the m2. (I'm undecided but leans to the Judas.) But to suggest it parallels the differences between the Adore era and the Machina era just ain't right. Production aside, the Machina era had better songs (and more of them), Jimmy drumming, better b-sides, better everything. The Adore era was good and all, but it wasn't nearly as good as what came before or after.

I like the Judas O one better, the M2 one is too mellow.

Originally posted by ZackZ
Adore is better than Machina, but I don't think Adore-era songs are better than Machina-era songs overall. Machina 2 has some of the best Pumpkins songs ever written. Damn. We gotta stop agreeing like this!

Both are pretty bad, but Judas O > Machina II

i love the Judas O version of Saturnine

Originally posted by Rockin' Cherub
actually you don't mean machina II saturnine, you mean saturnine on one of the eps that come with it.

/pumpkinhead
you can call it the MACHINA II version meaning the version of the MACHINA II era, not necessarily the album. of course, you could just as well call it the MACHINA version, then, the other being the Adore version.

however, his inconsistency in calling one the MACHINA II version, by the era during which it was recorded, while calling the other the Judas O version, by the release on which it appears, undercuts any claim to his own understanding of these points. so your point is well made. kudos.

why debate the better version, it's just a matter of taste :p

I prefer Judas O but I like M2 also.

Originally posted by tcm

you can call it the MACHINA II version meaning the version of the MACHINA II era, not necessarily the album. of course, you could just as well call it the MACHINA version, then, the other being the Adore version.

however, his inconsistency in calling one the MACHINA II version, by the era during which it was recorded, while calling the other the Judas O version, by the release on which it appears, undercuts any claim to his own understanding of these points. so your point is well made. kudos.
there was no such thing like a machina II era.

Originally posted by Rockin' Cherub
there was no such thing like a machina II era.
nonsense.

Originally posted by Ugly
I like the Judas O one better, the M2 one is too mellow.
ridiculous. it's too tense to be mellow. you're just not feeling it.