Iraqis that is

700+ in Baghdad last month alone

Way to go America, Britain, Australia, Poland and the rest of them

source: Robert Fisk interviewed by Linda Clarke on NZ National Radio this morning (on the way in to work)

Doing a job of liberating this country right here you pack of losers - keep up the shitty work.

hey, be fare: theres an Iraqi in the olympics... I think.

Uh, it's a war.

Originally posted by sppunk
Uh, it's a war.

against who exactly?

oh wait ... the 700 odd terrorists that were in Baghdad last month right?

good one you stupid fuck, go bury your head in the sand

Originally posted by sppunk
Uh, it's a war.

but this a year after we won said war.

I bet they didn't present statistics of how many died on average per year before the war, now did they?

Originally posted by mercurial


against who exactly?

oh wait ... the 700 odd terrorists that were in Baghdad last month right?

good one you stupid fuck, go bury your head in the sand

Nice comment there to end. When you take some poli sci courses when (actually, a big if) you go to college, get back to me.

If you are saying that those deaths are completely the U.S.'s fault, you're insane. I don't support this war, but you can't pull our troops out at this moment. They are attempting to stabilize a nation - BY KILLING THE FUCKING MILITIAMEN.

Originally posted by Nimrod's Son
I bet they didn't present statistics of how many died on average per year before the war, now did they?

Their deaths would be attributed to that cold hearted killer saddam, not the "wonderful, all-knowing, and always on the right side" Americans.

Its much worse to portray the image of being a great nation that holds innocent life in such high regard than to be a known killer who kills people. I would expect many to die under saddam but not under us.

Originally posted by Pudge


Their deaths would be attributed to that cold hearted killer saddam, not the "wonderful, all-knowing, and always on the right side" Americans.

Its much worse to portray the image of being a great nation that holds innocent life in such high regard than to be a known killer who kills people. I would expect many to die under saddam but not under us. So you don't expect people to die in a war? And when you say "under us" you do realize that most of these deaths, especially the recent civillian ones, are the result of suicide bombers and the like?

Originally posted by Nimrod's Son
I bet they didn't present statistics of how many died on average per year before the war, now did they?

I found it interesting that the Allied Command and Iraqi provisional authority refused to release statistics on how many Iraqi's were bieng killed during the 'major combat operations' - so death toll has been ascertained largely by independent body coutns at morgues ... which in turn means the figures are probably undercooked.

Of further interest is this document issued to all morgues by the Iraqi health authority advising it is against the law to carry out an autopsy on a body brought in by allied forces. Again this sort of rough as guts body count indicates that about 50% of the casualties of violence died as a result of "Major trauma to the face" ... or a bullet in the head in other words.

Originally posted by Nimrod's Son
So you don't expect people to die in a war? And when you say "under us" you do realize that most of these deaths, especially the recent civillian ones, are the result of suicide bombers and the like?

Quite - a number of the violent deaths have been perpetrated by thieves, kidnappers and such.

Nice work by the people upholding law and order, liberty, democracy and all that jazz

Originally posted by mercurial


I found it interesting that the Allied Command and Iraqi provisional authority refused to release statistics on how many Iraqi's were bieng killed during the 'major combat operations' - so death toll has been ascertained largely by independent body coutns at morgues ... which in turn means the figures are probably undercooked.

Of further interest is this document issued to all morgues by the Iraqi health authority advising it is against the law to carry out an autopsy on a body brought in by allied forces. Again this sort of rough as guts body count indicates that about 50% of the casualties of violence died as a result of "Major trauma to the face" ... or a bullet in the head in other words. 1 - Why are you surprised that people in a warzone are killed by bullets?

2 - Why is an autopsy neccesary for someone who has been shot in the face?

An AP study last week said since the handover, 80 percent of all deaths were caused by Iraqi militants, not coalition troops. Stop fishing for some reason to yell at people for.

Originally posted by mercurial


I found it interesting that the Allied Command and Iraqi provisional authority refused to release statistics on how many Iraqi's were bieng killed during the 'major combat operations' - so death toll has been ascertained largely by independent body coutns at morgues ... which in turn means the figures are probably undercooked.

You do realize that the fact that the bodies can be counted in morgues is a step up from what was going on before, don't you? Saddam didn't bring the people he killed to the morgue. He dug big holes in the desert and filled them with corpses. But by all means, keep on trying to say what's going on now is worse or even comparable.

Originally posted by Nimrod's Son
1 - Why are you surprised that people in a warzone are killed by bullets?

2 - Why is an autopsy neccesary for someone who has been shot in the face?

1 - the point is - a year on it's a piss poor job of re-building, considering it was a year ago that the war, or 'major combat operations' ceased. I'm not denying it's an impossibly tough job - what I'm getting at in a rather obtuse manner is that the job bieng done is not good enough.

It's clear that the allied forces have a huge debt of responsibility to protect the Iraqi people - and both sides of political debate tend to accept this. What is also becoming clear is that the allies are rather ineffective in this capacity.

2 - I don't really care about Autopsy - I just thought it was an interesting point in light of "people die in war" sort of bieng used to justify how if you drop a huge missile on one building - other buildings will suffer co-lateral damage. Does the same apply to people shot in the face?

I should stop replying now - I have shitloads of work to get on with.

Originally posted by mercurial


1 - the point is - a year on it's a piss poor job of re-building, considering it was a year ago that the war, or 'major combat operations' ceased. I'm not denying it's an impossibly tough job - what I'm getting at in a rather obtuse manner is that the job bieng done is not good enough.


By all means, go to Iraq and help them do better - since you say you can and say you know how to handle the delicate situation that everyone in Iraq faces every day.

Originally posted by Corganist


You do realize that the fact that the bodies can be counted in morgues is a step up from what was going on before, don't you? Saddam didn't bring the people he killed to the morgue. He dug big holes in the desert and filled them with corpses. But by all means, keep on trying to say what's going on now is worse or even comparable.

Hey look mate - 11,000 dead in a year (or just slightly over), and 700 in one city in one month alone is no good by any one's standards regardless of what went on before.

Hardly something to be proud of.

Originally posted by sppunk


By all means, go to Iraq and help them do better - since you say you can and say you know how to handle the delicate situation that everyone in Iraq faces every day.

You are about as much use as tits on a bull - didn't I ask you to bury your head in the sand already?

Originally posted by mercurial


You are about as much use as tits on a bull - didn't I ask you to bury your head in the sand already?

I'm waiting for you to make a point that makes sense. You are berading the war in Iraq for deaths that are mostly caused by Iraqis themselves.

What the hell do you want?

Originally posted by sppunk


I'm waiting for you to make a point that makes sense. You are berading the war in Iraq for deaths that are mostly caused by Iraqis themselves.

What the hell do you want?

Effective law and order/Less violent deaths please and a transparent process of accountability. Read the posts ya loser.

kthnx

Ok - so you lord the fact that you take politcal science papers at university - you tell me what they taught you that they didn't teach me ie. give me a solution beyond and impetuos remark like 'you go and sort it out'

war iz kool

Originally posted by mercurial


Effective law and order/Less violent deaths please and a transparent process of accountability. Read the posts ya loser.

kthnx

Ok - so you lord the fact that you take politcal science papers at university - you tell me what they taught you that they didn't teach me ie. give me a solution beyond and impetuos remark like 'you go and sort it out'

No, I lord the fact (whatever that means) that I've worked on two campaigns, covered a presidential election, four gubernatorial elections and countless senate races. I also spent an entire summer with the Kennedys. I have learned by experience what politicians have to do and what they simply can't do.

And, again I ask, how can we stop deaths that the coalition isn't forcing in the first place? If you want to get in your car and run it into a police station - no one can stop you. Same thing with Iraq. The violence is all civil now.

Originally posted by Isle
war iz kool

After looking at your avatar and reading that, I think its quite clear you are the most pwnerific dude EVAR>

tits on a bull mate, tits on a bull

You see my problem is I don't find the current situation acceptable. I don't buy that there is nothing that can be done about it either.

Restoring Law and Order is a paramount responsibilty - remember the part of the justification fo the occupation was to liberate the Iraqi populace from the cruel regime of Saddam and bring western style freedom and rights to the ordinary people?

It's hardly good conduct to say - ah well, we came in and dismantled the regime, now they are killing themselves and there's nothing we can do about it. Take a page out of what NZ and Australia did in East Timor, or our ongoing struggle to help the situation in Papua New Guinea improve.

I repeat - my point is the current state of affairs is not acceptable by anyone's standards, let alone those of an emancipated, progressive, internationally responsible western country.

More has to be done to restore order in Iraq (this goes beyond shooting people in the head because they approach a check point a little too fast) by the occupying forces eg. strict border controls to prevent foreign militia from entering Iraq, as has been the call for some time now.

If the occupying forces of the co-alition of the willing cannot do the job, perhaps they had better get down to good old diplomacy and get a co-alition of the rest of us unwilling nations to get in there and do the job proper like.

The callous backhand response that you give "Hey, this is what happens in war" is so utterly surprising to me. It almost seems as if those who would answer in such a manner are quite happy to accept this as a good enough state of affairs. How can you possibly think this is fine just fine?

Cognitive dissonance abounds.

Furthermore - I don't see that the allied forces consider themselves absolved of responsibility.

They are still pipelines to build man! On with the job!

Originally posted by mercurial
If the occupying forces of the co-alition of the willing cannot do the job, perhaps they had better get down to good old diplomacy and get a co-alition of the rest of us unwilling nations to get in there and do the job proper like.
It's not very easy to negotiate with someone who wants to blow himself up as a human bomb, kidnap civillians and cut their heads off, and launch rockets into hotels.

Also, they don't exactly list their phone numbers.

Originally posted by Nimrod's Son
It's not very easy to negotiate with someone who wants to blow himself up as a human bomb, kidnap civillians and cut their heads off, and launch rockets into hotels.

Also, they don't exactly list their phone numbers.

I agree that the situation is almost impossibly difficult to control - and I can see how mistakes would be made under extreme pressure as well. We are all only human after all.

Still ... there is more that has to be done. We can't simply go "Oh it's too too hard - don't want to do this anymore!" now can we?

Originally posted by sppunk
Uh, it's a war.

i hate this argument. as if because its war, everything is justified. hes not saying "look people died" like some kinda naive dunce, hes saying "look 11,000 died." nobody, except the hysterical "wont somebody think of the children?" mothers, expects no one to die or there not to be hardship, but nobody, except the ignorant middle-america low-brows expects death tolls to not matter. they dont matter 'because its war'