http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v223/sugarhi385/abortion.gif

And if so, would you wear this shirt that is apparently being distributed by Planned Parenthood?

Do you think it's a good idea?

I find it to be much like communism... Good in theory, bad in practice. I assume the idea of the shirt is to take away the stigma of abortion and let people know that dirty fucking whores aren't the only people who get abortions. Good idea, but when guys start wearing them as jokes (when I told my brother about it this morning over coffee he laughed and said he wanted one) or when people get taunted or their shit fucked up for wearing one, it kind of defeats the purpose.

Anyway, what do you think? Would you wear it if you had an abortion?

i like those colors...:erm

i don't belong in here.

I dunno, I'm pro choice, but I don't like that shirt. I do think women should have a choice, but it doesn't mean that having an abortion is somthing that should be looked upon as good or something to be proud of...and to me, that's what that shirt suggests.

Edit; I don't belong here either. :erm

haha, guys belong here just as much as girls do, I think.

That's another reason why I don't think this shirt is a good idea... Even though it's there for what I assume it to be (to let people know that all races, colors, religions, types, etc. of people have abortions... Not just the ugly ones who eat cheetos and fail high school) most people are going to look at that shirt and think that they are flaunting it, or being proud of it, or advocating abortion, etc.

I like cheetos ;)

I agree with you. I think there are probably better ways to "put a face" on people who have abortions. Sad thing is I've met people who would wear that shirt as some kind of femminist statement. That makes me uncomfortable for some reason.

I need to get a knockoff version of that shirt that reads "I ate an abortion."

omg this is horrible.....yeah everyone has abortions! guess i'll get one too!! /satire

really though, this decision shouldn't be made on whether other people find it acceptable. i think a decision like this should be the absolute last resort, and should NOT by any means be boasted about. though i am pro choice, i do believe that it is ending the possibility for a life. you can never know if the baby would've been carried to term without problems or lived long after birth anyway, but being proud or promoting such a personal decision is ERMTASTIC (thx toby).

it's like me walking around saying i had scoliosis, but i couldn't really help that at all. it's something waaay too personal to be advertised as a means to gain social acceptance. :noway:

Originally posted by trykristin
omg this is horrible.....yeah everyone has abortions! guess i'll get one too!! /satire

really though, this decision shouldn't be made on whether other people find it acceptable. i think a decision like this should be the absolute last resort, and should NOT by any means be boasted about. though i am pro choice, i do believe that it is ending the possibility for a life. you can never know if the baby would've been carried to term without problems or lived long after birth anyway, but being proud or promoting such a personal decision is ERMTASTIC (thx toby).

Thanks for the retarded, off topic rant.

This thread is about the shirt and if you would ever wear it, not whether or not you think abortion is okay.

Originally posted by avian chaos
haha, guys belong here just as much as girls do, I think.

That's another reason why I don't think this shirt is a good idea... Even though it's there for what I assume it to be (to let people know that all races, colors, religions, types, etc. of people have abortions... Not just the ugly ones who eat cheetos and fail high school) most people are going to look at that shirt and think that they are flaunting it, or being proud of it, or advocating abortion, etc.

100%, baby. when i clicked on this thread and saw the picture, the first thing that went through my mind was "what a cool shirt! how funnie would it be if i were to wear it?" planned parenthood's message will be totally butchered with that thing.

oh, there's nothing wrong with having an opinion, but i don't think guys should have any say regarding abortion, unless it was their sperm that made the foetus. uhh.. i need to go to bed.

Originally posted by avian chaos


Thanks for the retarded, off topic rant.

This thread is about the shirt and if you would ever wear it, not whether or not you think abortion is okay.

i was talking about the POINT of the shirt. you mentioned that it was supposed to put a face to people that had had one. changing the previous stigma attached to the procedure by normalizing it. i don't think it should be normalized or publicized. that's all.

Originally posted by mewl


100%, baby. when i clicked on this thread and saw the picture, the first thing that went through my mind was "what a cool shirt! how funnie would it be if i were to wear it?" planned parenthood's message will be totally butchered with that thing.

oh, there's nothing wrong with having an opinion, but i don't think guys should have any say regarding abortion, unless it was their sperm that made the foetus. uhh.. i need to go to bed.

I know, right? And women shouldn't have a say in abortion unless it was their vagina containing the fetus! :eek: In a way, you're right... But I think guys should be just as involved in the topic of abortion because, one day, it could be their little spermy wiggling it's way up some girl's vagina.

You'd think someplace like Planned Parenthood would have done a lot better job at planning this kind of campaign. It's like asking for an ass kicking...

I think it's a bad idea. Planned Parenthood definitely had their hearts in the right place like you were saying - people of all races and socioeconomical backgrounds get them but I don't think anybody whose had an abortion would buy one. I know two of my friends who had one and it was a very painful and personal thing, not something you'd want broadcast on a t-shirt.

Originally posted by trykristin


i was talking about the POINT of the shirt. you mentioned that it was supposed to put a face to people that had had one. changing the previous stigma attached to the procedure by normalizing it. i don't think it should be normalized or publicized. that's all.

You were ranting about how you don't think the decision of abortion should be made by someone else's acceptance, how you think it's the ending the possiblity of life, blah blah.

You weren't talking about the point of the shirt, and if you were you did a poor job of expressing it. You barely even mentioned the shirt or the idea behind it.

Just answer the question and move on. If you had an abortion, would you wear it? I don't give a shit if you'd be proud of your abortion or not, I just want to know if you'd f'ing wear it okay? GOSH!

Abortions are a personal choice. Wearing a shirt is a personal choice. I might order one of those to wear to the next rally just to spite right-wing fundamentalists.

Oh, and I still don't know what the fuck people who oppose stem cell research are thinking. /end off-topic rant

Looks like something from tshirthell. You'd probably get a variety of reactions to something like that, but none of them would be the intended one. Well, unless they ran a visible campaign about the whole thing so people would actually know what the shirts meant, but would anyone want to put themselves through all that after an abortion?

Kinda reminds me of the red 'I am an adulterer' As they used to make women wear...

Originally posted by DeviousJ
Looks like something from tshirthell. You'd probably get a variety of reactions to something like that, but none of them would be the intended one. Well, unless they ran a visible campaign about the whole thing so people would actually know what the shirts meant, but would anyone want to put themselves through all that after an abortion?

Kinda reminds me of the red 'I am an adulterer' As they used to make women wear...

The visible campaign thing is a good idea, however I don't see that actually happening.

You're totally right, too. The only difference between this shirt and the A's is that the A's were forced on women and meant to demean them. These shirts aren't forced but they certainly will demean anyone who wears one.

Originally posted by avian chaos
I know, right? And women shouldn't have a say in abortion unless it was their vagina containing the fetus! :eek: In a way, you're right... But I think guys should be just as involved in the topic of abortion because, one day, it could be their little spermy wiggling it's way up some girl's vagina.

i view it more as a woman's issue than a man's issue. sure, a guy can talk all he wants about it, but i don't think he should have the right to make/ratify/abalblahpolitcal crap any laws about what is ultimately a woman's issue. if it's a couple, now that's a different story. that's what i was meandering towards.

Originally posted by mewl


i view it more as a woman's issue than a man's issue. sure, a guy can talk all he wants about it, but i don't think he should have the right to make/ratify/abalblahpolitcal crap any laws about what is ultimately a woman's issue. if it's a couple, now that's a different story. that's what i was meandering towards.

Agreed!

i'd still wear the shirt, though :erm

If we're talking about "putting a face on the issue," I think someone needs to do a rip-off version of the shirt that says "I could have been an abortion."

Looks like a terrible idea. I don't know what girl would ever wear one unless they were some kind of dedicated activist.

you're gonna see a lot of skater dudes wearing this shirt once they hit goodwill (or hot topic)

Originally posted by Corganist
If we're talking about "putting a face on the issue," I think someone needs to do a rip-off version of the shirt that says "I could have been an abortion."


good point.

either way this stirs up a lot of drama on the streets that probably isnt needed there.

Good idea.

Abortion rights groups predict that ~40 percent of American women will have an abortion by the time they're 45 years old. Yet despite these huge numbers, there's still a lot of shame involved, and the theme of necessary wrongdoing is one that pervades even pro-choice discussion. The Democratic Party line is usually to keep abortions 'safe, legal, and rare.' When discussing abortion, even among pro-choicers, you're always going to hear, 'It's not something to be proud of,' and I think it was already mentioned in this thread. However, I think there's a distinct difference between pride and refusal of shame.

It may be just a t-shirt, but if it helps bring people's abortion experiences out into the open and aids in eroding the stigma surrounding it, I'm all for it.

Originally posted by Ghetto_Squirrel
Good idea.

Abortion rights groups predict that ~40 percent of American women will have an abortion by the time they're 45 years old. Yet despite these huge numbers, there's still a lot of shame involved, and the theme of necessary wrongdoing is one that pervades even pro-choice discussion. The Democratic Party line is usually to keep abortions 'safe, legal, and rare.' When discussing abortion, even among pro-choicers, you're always going to hear, 'It's not something to be proud of,' and I think it was already mentioned in this thread. However, I think there's a distinct difference between pride and refusal of shame.

It may be just a t-shirt, but if it helps bring people's abortion experiences out into the open and aids in eroding the stigma surrounding it, I'm all for it.

As always, I agree with you on the cultural and political issues. As always, however, Istill think you're a pompous douchebag and I would give anything for the chance to kick the shit out of you.

Originally posted by Mayfuck
Istill think you're a pompous douchebag and I would give anything for the chance to kick the shit out of you.

I think you just need a hug.

Or an abortion. Whichever makes you happier.

Originally posted by Ghetto_Squirrel

Abortion rights groups predict that ~40 percent of American women will have an abortion by the time they're 45 years old.

Wow I hope that's not right.

Originally posted by Eulogy


Wow I hope that's not right.

It probably is. A woman at my old work told me last week that she's been pregnant 6 or 7 times in her life, and to my knowledge she only has 2 kids.

Originally posted by avian chaos


It probably is. A woman at my old work told me last week that she's been pregnant 6 or 7 times in her life, and to my knowledge she only has 2 kids.

Do you think that's ok??

I mean. It's one thing to support a woman's decision if she's in a really tough decision one time early in her life or something.

but ugh.

I should stop now.

Originally posted by Eulogy


Do you think that's ok??

I mean. It's one thing to support a woman's decision if she's in a really tough decision one time early in her life or something.

but ugh.

I should stop now.

No, I agree with you completely. It's one thing to have an accident happen, take a step back and think "Shit, I wasn't responsible enough." And then try to better yourself for the future. But there's a HUGE difference between one unwanted pregnancy that was an accident you learn from and up to four.

What I mean to say is... wtf.

Originally posted by avian chaos


No, I agree with you completely. It's one thing to have an accident happen, take a step back and think "Shit, I wasn't responsible enough." And then try to better yourself for the future. But there's a HUGE difference between one unwanted pregnancy that was an accident you learn from and up to four.

What I mean to say is... wtf.

A'ight, good, good.

That shirt kicks ass.

Originally posted by avian chaos
No, I agree with you completely. It's one thing to have an accident happen, take a step back and think "Shit, I wasn't responsible enough." And then try to better yourself for the future. But there's a HUGE difference between one unwanted pregnancy that was an accident you learn from and up to four.

If it's alright the first time, why not the next three?

It's a surgical procedure, and if she wants to subject her own body to that every time she gets careless, who cares?

abortion should not be used as a method of fucking birth control.

Originally posted by mewl


i view it more as a woman's issue than a man's issue. sure, a guy can talk all he wants about it, but i don't think he should have the right to make/ratify/abalblahpolitcal crap any laws about what is ultimately a woman's issue. if it's a couple, now that's a different story. that's what i was meandering towards.

Exactly. That's how I feel about the gay marriage issue too. I'm sick of all these heterosexuals making legislation that doesn't concern them.

Originally posted by spa ced
Exactly. That's how I feel about the gay marriage issue too. I'm sick of all these heterosexuals making legislation that doesn't concern them.

yeah, that too.

Originally posted by Ghetto_Squirrel


If it's alright the first time, why not the next three?

It's a surgical procedure, and if she wants to subject her own body to that every time she gets careless, who cares?

It's not "all right" the first time, if I said that in my previous post I apologize. It's never "all right" to be irresponsible and cause yourself and possibly others grief with something that could have been avoided. But it is one thing to be irresponsible the first time and learn from your mistakes, and a completely other to just not give a shit, be as careless as you want and give a bad name to those who are in need of abortions for more than just a way to fix their excessive carelessness.

I understand the procedure just fine, and if a woman wants to have an abortion, believe me, I support that decision. But I can't support relentless carelessness with one's body and the dehumanization of abortion or irresponsibility. There are better ways to make sure you don't have a baby in 9 months after having sex than abortion. Accidents happen, but being careless on more than one occasion is not an accident.

The shirt was made for people to wear at the Dem convention. As anyone who watched can tell you, no one wore it...it was totally shot down by the Dem party. The purpose of the shirt is simply to take away the stigma of abortion and try to make it more acceptable/something that no woman needs to be ashamed of.

But yeah, I think it is a stupid idea.

deleted scene from Fight Club, where she says to Tyler:


"I want to have your abortion." :rofl:

Originally posted by i_dont_live
deleted scene from Fight Club, where she says to Tyler:


"I want to have your abortion." :rofl: that seriously has nothing to do with anything. ever.

The underlying theme of the shirt is that if a lot of people are open about abortion then it is morally acceptable. That is, if a lot of people have them and a lot fo people think that abortions are correct, then it will become or will be or is truth. I see nothing about facts or logic or why their position is right. This shirt is a representation of basic "shouting match" style ethics -- whoever has the loudest voice is right, despite the facts. IF they had t-shirts that said: "I had an abortion because....(fact)" or "abortion is right because..." or soemthing much more creative, then fine. This shirt simply appeals to ad populam and, in my opinion, should be condemned by both pro-choice and pro-life people.

Originally posted by jczeroman
This shirt simply appeals to ad populam and, in my opinion, should be condemned by both pro-choice and pro-life people.

Originally posted by Ghetto_Squirrel


If it's alright the first time, why not the next three?

It's a surgical procedure, and if she wants to subject her own body to that every time she gets careless, who cares?

:noway:

Originally posted by Eulogy


:noway:

don't be sad because your mom missed out.

Abortion is a serious issue, from either side. If the pro-choice side is correct, then there is a fundamental threat to basic property rights. If the pro-life side is correct, then innocent people are being killed. The proper forum for such an issue is not on t-shirts and bumper stickers and it shouldn't be fought with one-liners and appeals to emotion and popular opinion. It should be fought with facts.

This T-shirt doesn't add to a dialogue based on facts, unless facts are contingent upon the number of people who believe them. If that is the case then we might as well go back to believing in a flat earth and that fruitflies are generated from trash.

This is about as "powerful" as pro-lifers yelling and cursing women who go into abortion clinics. It only constructs barriers to discussing the real facts behind abortion and determining if it is a defendable right or a condemable atrocity.

Remeber, without facts, anything is possible.

Originally posted by jczeroman
Abortion is a serious issue, from either side. If the pro-choice side is correct, then there is a fundamental threat to basic property rights. If the pro-life side is correct, then innocent people are being killed. The proper forum for such an issue is not on t-shirts and bumper stickers and it shouldn't be fought with one-liners and appeals to emotion and popular opinion. It should be fought with facts.

This T-shirt doesn't add to a dialogue based on facts, unless facts are contingent upon the number of people who believe them. If that is the case then we might as well go back to believing in a flat earth and that fruitflies are generated from trash.

This is about as "powerful" as pro-lifers yelling and cursing women who go into abortion clinics. It only constructs barriers to discussing the real facts behind abortion and determining if it is a defendable right or a condemable atrocity.

Remeber, without facts, anything is possible.

But......this arguement can't be won by either side using facts. For the most part, all the facts are already known. The battle lines are still drawn though.

I mean, what facts have yet to be discovered that could change the opinions of anyone who has their mind made up?

Originally posted by Eulogy

I mean, what facts have yet to be discovered that could change the opinions of anyone who has their mind made up?

I think it is not about facts being discovered, it's about facts comming to light in the forum of rational, open-minded debate.

Well, it seems to me that at the crux of the debate is the fundamnetal definition of human life. Both sides believe in private property rights and both sides believe that innocent people should not be killed. So we have to use facts to define life.

What is human life? It is unique, it is growing, it eats, it breathes, it is above basic animal instincts, it has the ability to make ethical decisions. Human life is not just life, it is intelligent life. That is a really broad definition, but I am just posting on a messageboard for now, not some scientific journal.

Anyway, I argue that sperm, though made of living cells is not life because the chromosomes needed to make life are identical to the father, that i sthey are not unique. They are merely an extension of the father and fall under his right to private property. Same with egg cells from a female.

When the egg and sperm are joined, they becomes something unique. That entity has never existed before, nor will it ever exist again (except through cloning, which is another discussion entirely). Not only is it unique, but it has all of the genetic material to make all of the physical manifestations of the human body. Which leads us to a question of sub definition -- is a human life defined by his body parts and organs? I would argue that he is not -- a person without a right arm is no less of a person than a human with both arms. A human is more than just his physical body, he is also his mind.

The unique cell that is created from the sperm and the egg is a life because it eats, breathes, grows, divideds, moves, etc... He is human life because he has the unique aspects in his elemental building blocks -- DNA -- that will enable him to develop intellectual characteristics such as reasoning, emotion, thought, ethics and so on. They are already written into his individual genetic material.

The first cell is the end-product of the process of creating new human life. New, unique human life has been created at that point, there is no going back except by death (accidental or on purpose).

Originally posted by jczeroman


I think it is not about facts being discovered, it's about facts comming to light in the forum of rational, open-minded debate.

Well, it seems to me that at the crux of the debate is the fundamnetal definition of human life. Both sides believe in private property rights and both sides believe that innocent people should not be killed. So we have to use facts to define life.

What is human life? It is unique, it is growing, it eats, it breathes, it is above basic animal instincts, it has the ability to make ethical decisions. Human life is not just life, it is intelligent life. That is a really broad definition, but I am just posting on a messageboard for now, not some scientific journal.

Anyway, I argue that sperm, though made of living cells is not life because the chromosomes needed to make life are identical to the father, that i sthey are not unique. They are merely an extension of the father and fall under his right to private property. Same with egg cells from a female.

When the egg and sperm are joined, they becomes something unique. That entity has never existed before, nor will it ever exist again (except through cloning, which is another discussion entirely). Not only is it unique, but it has all of the genetic material to make all of the physical manifestations of the human body. Which leads us to a question of sub definition -- is a human life defined by his body parts and organs? I would argue that he is not -- a person without a right arm is no less of a person than a human with both arms. A human is more than just his physical body, he is also his mind.

The unique cell that is created from the sperm and the egg is a life because it eats, breathes, grows, divideds, moves, etc... He is human life because he has the unique aspects in his elemental building blocks -- DNA -- that will enable him to develop intellectual characteristics such as reasoning, emotion, thought, ethics and so on. They are already written into his individual genetic material.

The first cell is the end-product of the process of creating new human life. New, unique human life has been created at that point, there is no going back except by death (accidental or on purpose).

Well said!

I understand the idea behind it, but no one I know who's had an abortion would ever wear it, and I don't think the world would be ready for it if they did.

I would never wear that shirt and might want to slap someone who did.

The problem with most people is that they are quick to divulge any and all personal information. I am not and do not appreciate this lack of restraint and class as a quality in others.

Originally posted by The Light
and might want to slap someone who did.


My thoughts, exactly.

Originally posted by mewl
abortion should not be used as a method of fucking birth control.

Given that birth control refers to a device through which to avoid pregnancy, what would it be?

Also keep in mind that if you adopt the 'life at conception' stance, you're going to have to oppose birth control pills, ECPs, the morning after tablet, and any other method that prevents a fertilised egg from clinging to the uteran wall.

This happens naturally literally half the time anyway. Most miscarriages hapen so early that they're not usually thought of as such.

Originally posted by Ghetto_Squirrel


Given that birth control refers to a device through which to avoid pregnancy, what would it be?

Avoiding pregnancy is very different from ending pregnancy.

I absolute adore Mr. Bush for thinking teaching abstinence is a way to stop abortions. I often wonder how someone can live life with such an immature view and simple thought pattern on such a complex and decisive topic.

Edit: Studies have shown that since this method of teaching went into effect, pregnancy rates among high school teens have more than doubled.

i actually read an article about how--since the bush administration--about 50 mil of tax dollars have gone towards teaching kids about abstinance. and its been proven that the problem has only gotten worse

Say it with me kids:

ABSTINENCE

Originally posted by Eulogy
Say it with me kids:

ABSTINENCE

No reason to talk about something that doesn't work.

to answer the original question

No, i have never had an abortion

and

No, If i did, I would not wear the shirt. - merely because I don't feel it is anyone's business and although people say they wouldn't judge me because i have had an abortion, they still would.

I'm me. If you can't see past that, its your problem. . . but i'm not going to wear a shirt that is going to make people judge me even more.

Originally posted by Ghetto_Squirrel
Also keep in mind that if you adopt the 'life at conception' stance, you're going to have to oppose birth control pills, ECPs, the morning after tablet, and any other method that prevents a fertilised egg from clinging to the uteran wall.

Which I do.

Originally posted by Eulogy
Avoiding pregnancy is very different from ending pregnancy.

That's not the point. He said he thought it shouldn't be used as birth control. No matter your reasons for having one, it is, by definition, birth control.