The Dave Matthews Band, Phish, The Dead, Bonnaroo, Metallica, etc. have begun selling professionally mastered soundboard recordings through the internet. They normally cost $9.95 for mp3, or $13.95 for lossless flac versions per show. If the Smashing Pumpkins ever had a system like this, would you buy the show?

It would depend on the releases. I mean, if you even remastered some of the releases we already have, I'd probably buy them. If it's like, straight releases of the 6/7 2000 SBD shows we have most of, meh. If it's a TON of others that we presume to exist, fuck yeah man.

I'm assuming that you've talked to Billy, Frank, and he's got a ton of SBD shows that have never seen the light of day, and is saying, if they'll buy it, he'll sell it.

In that case... shit yeah, man.

I would if it was done properly, they would have to have the option of some form of lossless like you said. Not just mp3. But if Billy is thinking about doing it I say bring on the Arising shows!

as brian said... arising and stuff like that. hell ya

yesterday i bought the dave and friends show from bonnaroo. i was amazed by the quality, and how it blew away the schoeps source that i had. it got me thinking about how the pumpkins material would be on this system. the technology to make a profit from selling digital music files over the internet is finally here. and i know it's been said in interviews/articles that every show between 1995 and now have been multi-tracked recorded on ADAT.

Originally posted by Mr MacPhisto
yesterday i bought the dave and friends show from bonnaroo. i was amazed by the quality, and how it blew away the schoeps source that i had. it got me thinking about how the pumpkins material would be on this system. the technology to make a profit from selling digital music files over the internet is finally here. and i know it's been said in interviews/articles that every show between 1995 and now have been multi-tracked recorded on ADAT.

what's sad is how this turns me on more than any girl ever could.

have you talked to Billy about this or is this a more, if the people ask for it then you'll ask him about it deal?

Originally posted by Zerospaced
I would if it was done properly, they would have to have the option of some form of lossless like you said. Not just mp3. But if Billy is thinking about doing it I say bring on the Arising shows!

yeah, everybody that is selling shows is selling them in both mp3 and flac formats. even metallica. you can buy the latest metallica show in mp3 for $9.95, or flac for $12.95.

Yo Frank.

Is this actually being considered officially?

If Billy were to release any material in any lossless format I would buy every single release! I would also be as happy as Machina 2 morning so many years ago. :love:

I think many fans would share this view.

it's something to think about. i have never seen a livephish recording on the internet anywhere. dmb just released their first live show on the net, and i'm monitoring thier community to see how it reacts. and what the backlash is, etc. they are setting rules that people can't put them up on ftp's or bt's. and people can't trade them, since they are official releases.

i'm just wondering how that would work here. it would require a lot of work from all of us, so people don't screw everything up. if everybody played nicely, more stuff would go up. but if people don't give a shit, than it won't be around for long.

just a thought

Originally posted by Mr MacPhisto
it's something to think about. i have never seen a livephish recording on the internet anywhere. dmb just released their first live show on the net, and i'm monitoring thier community to see how it reacts. and what the backlash is, etc. they are setting rules that people can't put them up on ftp's or bt's. and people can't trade them, since they are official releases.

i'm just wondering how that would work here. it would require a lot of work from all of us, so people don't screw everything up. if everybody played nicely, more stuff would go up. but if people don't give a shit, than it won't be around for long.

just a thought

I think we have a decent system in place now. I mean, we can't prevent them getting onto stuff like IRC or Soulseek, livephish goes there as does PJ and so on, but we can prevent it easily in the trading community. We can also shut down ebay auctions.

So this is just your idea or has Billy said anything about it at all recently that you know of? I'm just wondering if it's something to get excited about.

Originally posted by Sehki
It would depend on the releases. I mean, if you even remastered some of the releases we already have, I'd probably buy them. If it's like, straight releases of the 6/7 2000 SBD shows we have most of, meh. If it's a TON of others that we presume to exist, fuck yeah man. I agree with this.

I remember Billy mentioned a MCIS concert in a bull ring in Portugal as one of his favorite shows. And that he still wanted to release it. I'm interested...

Get it done Frank. I'd buy some shows.

I mean, I'm a whore, I'd probably buy anything with the words "Smashing Pumpkins" on it.

Originally posted by Sehki
shit yeah, man.

I voted no, but I WOULD gladly buy some shows that weren't already available in the hub. There is no way I would pay that money for something I could just download for free. But some rarer shows that haven't been leaked into the trading communities, I would pay for.

Originally posted by Punkishlyevil
I voted no, but I WOULD gladly buy some shows that weren't already available in the hub. There is no way I would pay that money for something I could just download for free. But some rarer shows that haven't been leaked into the trading communities, I would pay for.
Then vote yes, you idiot.

What about demo tapes? I would pay for Adore demos, including the tape with Sparrow on it. Ooh, ooh, and QAOS of course. Billy could make it happen.

Originally posted by Dead

Then vote yes, you idiot.

It was too late and I see no use in calling me an idiot for that.

I didn't see much use in it either but what are ya gonna do. You can't save the world.

I'd say that the majority of SP fans who would do this would buy nearly every single thing. Because of the shear volume of that I think lowering the cost to like 9.95 for the FLAC would be advantageous (and appreciated!) because that's what most people would be getting...and then keep the mp3 a little higher to make a profit off the casual person...like 6.95 or 7.95.

Or maybe a buy in bulk discount?

Originally posted by Cecil
I'd say that the majority of SP fans who would do this would buy nearly every single thing. Because of the shear volume of that I think lowering the cost to like 9.95 for the FLAC would be advantageous (and appreciated!) because that's what most people would be getting...and then keep the mp3 a little higher to make a profit off the casual person...like 6.95 or 7.95.


How about bulk discounts?

ha ha! right when I added that!

bulk discounts would be nice. I'd deffinatly buy the double doors shows from '95. Also unreleased studio material/demos/etc would sell well.

yes

I would wait till you bought it and then copy it off of you.

i'd also suggest to BC that he starts backing up every one of those ADAT's digitally somehow because, like VHS, nothing lasts forever and things degrade pretty quickly.

Originally posted by hendy



How about bulk discounts?


livephish.com offers a discount if you buy the whole tour.

Legal implications could become very interesting for the traders in the community, but I'd buy SBDs.

I vote yes. In a way, i *kinda* wish he wouldn't, because i would max out my credit card badly. (plus, being in Australia, overdownloading costs money too :( )

but still, yes :)

i'd prefer if they came for fee ;)

but yes. i would. the price is something that should be talked about, i still think 10 USD is a bit much, but 5-7 i could live with.

the other thing is, how to prevent it from being traded? i don't think you can prevent it from being traded offline, and perhaps that should still be possible? online trading will by no means be easy to monitor for this shows, but at least the main centers like the hub or stg could be monitored, so i think it will be at a minimum there.

what bothers me a little bit are the legal implications for trading normal sources of released shows, trading sp-shows in general etc. that could be a major drawback if you ask me....

that being said, i'd give a lot to hear 1996-04-22, so...

If its unreleased material and sbd's yeah it sounds pretty cool.

I'm a MOD on the groove now every torrent there needs to be approved by either me or 4 other Mods I can gurantee if these were to come out they would never get on the groove and if they did somehow slip past us, I could remove it as soon as anyone informed me.

Also I would like to point that while I would by certain SBDs (I would probably pass out for a SBD copy of Towers Of Rabble). I think anything over 10$ is a rip off. It's not like there is any reall cost involved here, just bandwidth and the intitial costs to get it off the ground. I would say 8$ for Flac and 5$ for mp3 make sense to me.

Originally posted by Mr MacPhisto
livephish.com offers a discount if you buy the whole tour. I've got five hundred right here ready to buy 02.20.95 - 06.23.97

Where should I send it?

Like everyone else has been saying, I think the success of the project would depend mostly on which shows/demos ended up getting released in this way. I think everyone on here would pay for a soundboard of one of the 2/95 Double Door shows, but it wouldn't do so well with a lot of the Adore tour shows (broadcast on the radio) or Scared and Profane tour shows (bootlegged in very high quality).

But as someone pointed out, there is virtually no incremental cost associated with this system. Once it's set up, it would just the time and effort to convert/mix/what-have-you the source and put it online. $10 *is* a bit steep for a lossless recording though. I mean, I would say a fair price for a CD is $10-$11 (even if you can't get one that cheap anymore), and that comes with cover art and stuff that costs money to produce and distribute.

Based on the number of people who download Pumpkins torrents on SharingtheGroove, I would say there would be a decent market for live material outside of what we consider the hardcore trading community. With an "advisor" of sorts from the community to suggest shows to release, I would think this would at least break even if not make a bit of money.

Chris Hill

I would buy shows from every tour. A lot of FMs aren't that great and even the good ones can't really compare to a soundboard recording in my opinion. I would love some Adore era stuff.

absolutely!

Sounds like a great idea if it is set up well. There are a load of shows which I would like to hear which don't have any known sources, and lots of others which I would like to have better quality copies of.

Originally posted by The Gaddrow
I've got five hundred right here ready to buy 02.20.95 - 06.23.97

Where should I send it?

haha beautiful, me too

that's like 2 tours and a couple minor tours too though, lol.

Originally posted by Mr MacPhisto
they are setting rules that people can't put them up on ftp's or bt's. and people can't trade them, since they are official releases.


not trading certain things has never been a problem in this community, so i wouldnt worry about that aspect of it.
although the higher the price of these shows, the less inclined most people would be to trade thier copy.


Originally posted by Punkishlyevil

It was too late and I see no use in calling me an idiot for that.


dont mind him. he's just an insecure bitch that does his best to turn every thread into a flame war.


Originally posted by CoolAsIceCream

I remember Billy mentioned a MCIS concert in a bull ring in Portugal as one of his favorite shows. And that he still wanted to release it. I'm interested...


ah yes, 5.2.96, the first time they played in Portugal. i've listened to this recording more than most other bad quality ones just like it, and it doesnt stand out much aside from the silverfuck at the end. Billy did mention at the very end of the gig that "out of all the shows we've played so far, this is the best one". in any other place, the crowd would probably have thought he was bullshitting. i think he said that due to the fact that they had barely sold any tickets when the show was just a couple of weeks away. that, along with the massive turnout for the show, the fact that everyone stood out in a rain storm until 3:00am to see them play, and were still the most enthusiastic audience that the pumpkins had seen to that point are probably why Billy considers that the best show.


as for this topic, id buy anything from 97 or earlier. releasing anything from 98 onward would obviously be pretty pointless, since we already have heaps of SBD's, FM's, TV broadcasts, etc of shows from 98-00, aside from the arising shows. but the shoeps sources of those suit me just fine. sure we have a few of those with 96, but not with the same quality. static ruining silverfuck(12.16.96), moron DJ talking through songs(4.24.96), incomplete broadcasts(4.19.96, 5.15.96) just to name a few.

I think this would be a great idea.

Just a few things that other artists have done that make it really worth while in my opinion.

• Phish offers artwork, tray card, j-card and cd label artwork for their shows

• Incubus donates $ from each show sold through their website

A few things that come to mind...

Would certain shows cost more than others, say if the final metro show was to be released would it be like $20?

What about a promo like every time a user buys 10 shows they get one free?

Maybe have billy or other band members have small written comments on the show, maybe certain things they liked about if (assuming they remember that particular show, im sure they end up bluring into each other at some point).

.... Really for me it just comes down to what show it is, what else is *******d in the package besides the audio files, and how much it costs...

I would probably buy several, especially arising shows come to mind and the 99 xmas shows at the metro, 5.14.96, 5.23.00 (one of the best I Am One rants)... and im sure everyone has their favorites...

possibility of offering video downloads?

Originally posted by Verboten

dont mind him. he's just an insecure bitch that does his best to turn every thread into a flame war.

Untrue.

I think that printing up some cheap packaging and mailing discs out instead of having downloadable files would cost more to produce, but you could charge more for them, and it would cut down on pirating.

I'd vote if there was a 'maybe' option.

However, I'm sort of all for it. Teh one thing keeping me from voting is my slow-ass internet connection - no point in me forking out for a show if is takes me 3 weeks to download it.

I'd prefer if they went the pearl jam route and 'officially' stamped up a bunch of CD's that were then for sale.

However, if 1994/02/05 or 1996/05/23 ever came up...

I'd certainly support a Pearl Jam type idea of releasing shows in custom made, but standard/generic sleeve, but pressed on real cd's. It makes you want the real deal instead of a payed download, you might aswell download from someone who did pay. It's just the little bit extra worth for your money. Also, the PJ shows don't cost THAT much and show it can be done rather cheaply. Affixing the stickers yourself, whilst listening to the shows, no problem...
On the other hand...
I will not be waiting for just any show.
As said before, especially the latter tours, MACHINA/Adore have been covered severly by tapers, resulting in great tapes. We have SBD's, FM's, Pre-FM's, what not of these shows and setlist didn't show that many changes.
So:
- 88~90: i'd most likely buy any show offered
- 91~92: important shows and shows with great setlists for example the CBGB's show, acoustic shows, the European dates in '92 and of course the shows where some SD tracks where played first
- 93~94: all pre-tour shows, some dates special to the band, Lolla Second Stage shows together with the mainstage ones, some Japanse shows, any and all acoustic performances
- 95: everything
- 96: here it's getting a little crowded with shows and not that much difference between shows... then again, the early tour shows with acoustic openers: certainly a YES! and again, some shows special to the band.
- late 96~early97: some of these very long shows i'd certainly would like to have
- 97 festivals: one or two in SBD quality would do the trick
- 97 rest: from 971017 on everything
- 98: hmmm not that much I think, however: the viper room show, the warmup date opening for cheap trick, the Grand Ole Opry show and one-two-three other great shows would be appreciated, the odd Japanse show aswell as La Capilla (again acoustic) too.
- 99: fair enough: EVERYTHING...
- 00: most has been coverd, so some shows from every sub-tour (Euro, RtP, S+P) and UC + Metro of course...

Add to that:
Demos and early versions..
We do have some early incarnations of Gish stuff, but wouldn't it be great to hear some demo's for the other songs?
We still lack the demos for SD... release those and ******* songs like Kitty Kat and Tulips as bonus... major deal there!
MCATIS demos are fairly okay for now... but the odd outtake here and there plus some jams from the sessions, like full versions of some PM snippets... great!
Adore demos, the first studiosessions which were largely not used later on and especially the Adore overdub-rerecording with Jimmy on drums!!!!!!
MACHINA: any and all material recorded then and there, no matter what... especially the jams which spawned these songs.. just like the Gravity Demos...
For goodness sake: image a boxset of TSP just like Derek and the Dominoes: "Layla" 30th Ann. Box set...!!! that would simply be amazing.
So...
Apart from the above mentioned...
Throw in as many early demos of any era and unreleased songs as a bonus and it's a big time deal for me!

ok time for my two cents. i'd likely buy quite a bit if it was dl only. certainly all unreleased studio stuff and demos and there are also a bunch of shows (nearly all of which have already been mentioned) that i'd go for.

for me tho official pressed cds with generic art like the pj or more recent pixies releases would mean i'd DEFFINATELY buy every single one.

so a quick list of pro's and con's on that -

pro's
you would probably get more takers
you can certainly charge more

con's
it's more expensive and time consuming to sort out (but if one show was released first that it is known would have a lot of takers the money from that would likely create a large enough pool to support the next couple of releases)
all of the art etc would have to be cleared by billy who's clearly very busy at the moment
billy is likely wanting to concentrate people's attention on his solo stuff not sp releases (just a guess, i could be wrong)

anyway's i'd like to see this happen. printing off a run of 1000 cds isn't that expensive and they could be sold via mail order rather than having to get distribution. i've already thought about all of this a lot in regards to the discography thats about to go live. i was thinking it would be a good base to release this sort of stuff (as would here obviously or spfc).

if there are just cds with stickered generic card sleeves (say card sleeves with an sp logo etc and a sticker with the date and setlist) you should be able to clear a decent profit by my reckoning as long as your pressing doesn't vastly outstrip demand. the profit could subsidise further releases (we all know there are hundreds of things still unheard to nearly all if not all of us) or go to a charity that the band feels strongly about like the adore tour.

rambling over.

Thom

Originally posted by Endless Whining
...
Add to that:
Demos and early versions..
...Sure... Why not... :erm

You greedy McGreedy. Someone is just informing on interest in the POSSIBLE release of SOME live recordings. Don't go nutballs.

just to make sure i made it clear enough i'd be happy to anything new seeing the light of day.

Last thing - as far as I can see in this thread, everybody's keen.

I'd just like to know if Billy has REALLY considered this, or if he hasn't been approached at all.

Maybe they could release everything they have on the Internet, and have a "best-of" series that they can release Pearl Jam-style. Only the best concerts - say about 10-20 of 'em from all through the Pumpkins career - with comments from the band members, photos from the concert, maybe even a DVD version for a couple of the best shows.

The obvious first release should be 12/2/2000. I haven't even listened to the show yet. I've seen the CNN clip, and Fuck You from the DVD - that's it. I've been waiting the entire time.

Anyways, beyond that, 1/15/98, the DD '95 shows, 12/12/98, 2/5/97, 6/18/94(if this is available), some early '96 shows, 6/23/97 and all the Bridge School shows need to be released.

My number one and two would have to be 12/2/2000 and 1/15/1998.

Originally posted by Andrew Fogelsong

My number one and two would have to be 12/2/2000 and 1/15/1998.

I think bringing out every single show for that price just isn't going to work. Sure there'll be some people buying all, but it's just too much, and there's too much of the same.

I agree with what some other people said: early stuff, special shows with stunning setlists/performances, demos.

I'd buy that for 12 dollars. But not the entire fall euro 2000 tour or the entire winter 96 mcis tour.

oh, and to be just a little bit more clear: i don't mind if these "special" shows are unavailable at the moment or not. I'd love a HQ soundboard of any of the double door 95 shows, or a soundboard of any of those euro 92 shows.

I hereby request the release of 1996-04-19.

I think you see it all too big. Even if every show since '96 has been taped, there is no way they will all be released. I also doubt if comments of the band and pictures are available for every show to be released.

If this ever happens, I don't think we'll see more than ten shows ever. Even though I'd like more of course.

I know this thread is about digital downloads, but an idea like

http://www.fugaziliveseries.com/

should be considered.

i love this idea, and i hope it actually takes motion and ends up happening. 10 bucks for a lossless show isn't bad i guess, but it would be easier if they only released a few every so often, like a few weeks, because if i was swarmed with 10 at once, i don't think i could afford it.

Getting some artwork would be awesome like phish does to.

This would be excellent if it were to happen.

A release of 12/2/2000 to start with would get a lot of people interested and get a good bit of publicity for it. Follow that up with some good SBD's of earlier tours, maybe a couple of rare tracks ...

I think theres a lot of potential in this idea, and given the large fanbase the pumpkins have it would be a good money maker. $10 per show in .flac sounds OK to me as well.

$10 per show sounds reasonable. Bandwidth doesn't just appear out of nowhere.

Originally posted by Pmack
I know this thread is about digital downloads, but an idea like

http://www.fugaziliveseries.com/

should be considered.

i certaintly agree dave...
this amounts to my idea of using the pros of the PJ type release, with the point of releasing special shows instead of all and everything.

the fugazi way looks nice enough, with fair pricing and the real deal as far as getting the stuff on actual cd's is concerned.

i'd prefer this over payed downloads anytime.

i like the idea, although i would prefer to have something along the lines of what pearl jam did, with the cardboard sleeves and cd.

any show before 91, i would buy them all. after that it would really depend on the setlist and place...also taking into consideration how many cd's would be released in total.

it would basically be an issue of money, because i would love to have all of those shows in my possesion.

As cool as the '95 and up ADAT thing sounds I'm sure the band has many recordings of the earlier stuff in better quality than what we have.

Originally posted by Nothing/everything


I agree with what some other people said: early stuff, special shows with stunning setlists/performances, demos.


02.19.96
04.10.96(the damn d6 recording never popped up)
06.25.96(these US-tour mcis silverfucks w/jimmy are simply to die for)
06.30.96!
08.23.96
09.28.96
11.27.96(starla, no need to say more)
12.10.96
12.11.96!
anything from 1.10.97 - 02.02.97

Originally posted by Pmack
I know this thread is about digital downloads, but an idea like

http://www.fugaziliveseries.com/

should be considered.

How cool.

I'm not a big Fugazi fan, but the range of shows is awesome.

Even including something like
17 7-1-97 DUNEDIN, NEW ZEALAND/ THE ROOM

there would get me to buy it.

I know this is heading toward the digital downloads but I just wanted to say I'd feel a lot better about spending money on an actual disc, even if the packaging is very basic. I think it would also prevent situations such as one person buying the files and then hooking up all his friends, which I can see happening. It would also eliminate the chances of the powers that be chickening out on lossless and only offering lossy formats.

Then again, there would be the added shipping fee, and me being in Canada that could get pricey (assuming they would be shipping outside the US at all).

I guess every rose has it's thorn. :(

Originally posted by Dead
I know this is heading toward the digital downloads but I just wanted to say I'd feel a lot better about spending money on an actual disc, even if the packaging is very basic. I think it would also prevent situations such as one person buying the files and then hooking up all his friends, which I can see happening. It would also eliminate the chances of the powers that be chickening out on lossless and only offering lossy formats.

Then again, there would be the added shipping fee, and me being in Canada that could get pricey (assuming they would be shipping outside the US at all).

I guess every rose has it's thorn. :(

Dude, buying Pearl Jam shows from the US including postage turned out cheaper than buying them here in New Zealand.

The only time I've seen those Pearl Jam cds they were over $20 each. I was surprised when one day I read how they were put out really cheap. Good thing I'm not into Pearl Jam.

We also NEED Starchildren' show

i've been hoping for a long time that something like this might happen. i hope there's a chance of this becoming a reality. this seems like something that's right up billy's alley.

here are my humble suggestions:

1. before any shows actually become available for sale, make a list of all the potentially available shows. more on this later.

2. only make something like 3 or 4 new shows available each month. this might make it easier to track down and kick 'legit' shows off the hub (insight on this, dead?). it would also keep everyone from going broke. it also might make it more practical for dial-up losers like me to download all of the shows as they're released.

3. post the list of 'potentially available' shows and let people vote on them. this could help determine at least some of the future releases and would also give people an idea of what all they can look forward to in the future.

4. keep releasing 3 or 4 shows a month until we're all old and gray.

personally, i'd be interested in buying anything that's an upgrade from what's currently available or anything that isn't available at all right now. for instance, the 1994 show i saw in lubbock, texas was probably the best rock show i've ever been to, but i've only heard vague rumors of a poor quality recording. i'd kill to hear that show again.
:)

great idea with great responses in this thread. i would purchase live downloads at a reasonalbe price ($5-$8). $10+ is too much considering you're only getting data.

Originally posted by RumoredToTheS&N
only make something like 3 or 4 new shows available each month. this might make it easier to track down and kick 'legit' shows off the hub (insight on this, dead?).
It my opinion the best way to avoid this would be to not release them as downloaded files, but apparently that's the only method being considered.

Originally posted by Dead

It my opinion the best way to avoid this would be to not release them as downloaded files, but apparently that's the only method being considered.

i can see your point, but it seems likely that they're going to find their way into some folks' share folder regardless of how they're distributed. i was just thinking of the easiest way to sniff them out. if they're distributed as data to begin with, at least you'd have a set name and/or file size to look for. if people rip the cd themselves, you could end up with a pretty wide range of names and file sizes (well, for flac at least). just a thought.

i like the idea of distributing them as cd's, but it seems like the download option would be easier and more cost-effective from a distribution standpoint.

Just my 2 cents... if they were to make these shows available for download... lossless would be preferable, but I'd still like 1 or 2 lossy tracks available for previewing... perhaps even listening to the first half streaming or something... I mean you can do that in most record stores these days... even archive.org allows something similar.

Just a thought.

Have the other bands seen their live shows land on ebay or spread across the net for free. Have their been torrents of the show showing up left and right?
If not then I am sure it will happen in time. Those who already get their stuff for free will most likely get it for free later.
So ya i got mix feelings

Not sure if many people feel this way...

I'll be honest. I will buy some of the shows if they are offered, not all. I don't have the want or need to throw money at SP anymore. I've already spent a ton in my lifetime. I'd probably buy the ones I really want, and trade for a good half of them. I'm sure that some people feel the same way.

And I agree, $8 sounds reasonable for a download. Seriously, how much does bandwidth cost these days? Not a lot. There are the initial setup costs, but those would all be absorbed within a few releases. Afterwards, it would be mostly profit for BC & company.

Originally posted by Andrew Fogelsong
I'd probably buy the ones I really want, and trade for a good half of them.

This is where the legal problems come from.... When we trade shows currently, technically, we're breaking the law (it's not OUR music to give to whomever we choose), but we don't get sued because we're not taking money away from anyone. If these shows become official releases, then anytime we trade them, we're taking away potential profit from someone -- thus, the likelihood of lawsuits skyrockets!

At least, this is my interpretation of the situation. If anyone has other thoughts, please share.

Originally posted by Smoothie


This is where the legal problems come from.... When we trade shows currently, technically, we're breaking the law (it's not OUR music to give to whomever we choose), but we don't get sued because we're not taking money away from anyone. If these shows become official releases, then anytime we trade them, we're taking away potential profit from someone -- thus, the likelihood of lawsuits skyrockets!

At least, this is my interpretation of the situation. If anyone has other thoughts, please share.

yeah. it would be like.. i'll trade you gish for siamese dream.

Originally posted by Mr MacPhisto
i'll trade you gish for siamese dream. deal.

i'll make shn's of my siamese dream mp3's and put them on the hub.

Here's the thing wrt to precedent...

To the best of my knowledge, the deal with the PJ shows was as follows:

A limited number of CDs was issued for each show. The band did not in any way expect for more than a small handful of people to buy whole tours - it was meant more as a way of local fans getting the shows that they went to, as well as providing copies of the entire show at a high quality level to anyone interested in a particular show.

The band was well aware that copying would happen, and although they hoped for the concert CDs to sell, there was tacit acknowledgement that this would happen one way or another, but certainly after the CD run sold out, and also probably among hardcore fans who simply didn't have the money to buy every show.

So, as I remember, you can d/l PJ shows that were copied from these CDs without fear of the band coming down on you.

What I'd say is that SP should release a limited number of CDs for each show (a la Earphoria), with no strings attached. Most people will buy a few concerts. A small number will buy them all. The freeloaders will not buy them anyway. My guess is that most people will buy one or two and download anything else that interests them.

That's my two cents.

Originally posted by Unregistered
Most people will buy a few concerts. A small number will buy them all. The freeloaders will not buy them anyway. My guess is that most people will buy one or two and download anything else that interests them. Kinda like the Pixies reunion tour shows on DiscLive.

I doubt this will happen. I think it's too little too late; Billy's last attempt to ride the whole SP company for one last buck. Two years ago I'd have given my left nut for something like this. If something like this happened I'd probably buy 2-3, and then start looking around for trades for maybe another 2-3 that I'd like to hear. 7/596, 7/10/96 and a few others.

Lots of people are saying "double doors!" but come on people, seriously; Billy is way to concerned about his image to release mediocre performances like that. I can maybe see this happening with a few select shows that we probably have FM recordings of (something ridiculous like that!)

Releasing all the taped shows is wayy to much to even dream for, I'm still waiting for him to grow some balls and release the last show. my .02

EDIT: Also I can't see this doing well at all! The main consumers would be the ones at the trade board (we have 70 potential buyers who have voted). Now by all means, I'm not saying that this is the only domain for collectors, I'm there are many other collectors out there. However, I think the main consumers will be the ones who buy copies of the shows they went to, something that would have worked immediately after the show. How are you going to convince someone who doesn't collect SP shows to buy a copy of a show they went to at least three years ago? I'll be very surprised if this actually materializes, but probably not as surprised as the people who put all the work into an idea that fails so miserably.

There is the possibility of new fans. I mean when I first became obsessed with the pumpkins I would do anything for anything relating to them...driving to the city every weekend, paying sometimes 30, 40, even 70 dollars for one bootleg!, hundreds of dollars I spent for what most here would only consider a moderate collection, only to be shitting my pants when I found out about the online stuff! You guys know this shit! :) If something like this was around for new people in that situation, like many people have said here, "a few years ago wouldn't that be great!", well think about people who are in that stage now and those who could be in the future. I was really surprised with how many new fans I saw join during the Machina era, who knows with his solo album coming out?

Also I've been proven more than I'd like to never count Billy out...he might have some surprises.

Originally posted by Unregistered
Here's the thing wrt to precedent...

To the best of my knowledge, the deal with the PJ shows was as follows:

A limited number of CDs was issued for each show. The band did not in any way expect for more than a small handful of people to buy whole tours - it was meant more as a way of local fans getting the shows that they went to, as well as providing copies of the entire show at a high quality level to anyone interested in a particular show.

The band was well aware that copying would happen, and although they hoped for the concert CDs to sell, there was tacit acknowledgement that this would happen one way or another, but certainly after the CD run sold out, and also probably among hardcore fans who simply didn't have the money to buy every show.

So, as I remember, you can d/l PJ shows that were copied from these CDs without fear of the band coming down on you.

What I'd say is that SP should release a limited number of CDs for each show (a la Earphoria), with no strings attached. Most people will buy a few concerts. A small number will buy them all. The freeloaders will not buy them anyway. My guess is that most people will buy one or two and download anything else that interests them.

That's my two cents.

Actually your wrong we have researched this issue for the Groove and have tried to get an answer from someone from the PJ camp for a long time.

The only answer we can find is from a chat session the band had and it was either MIke or Stone gave this as answer when asked if fans can trade the cd's "I hope they won't".

PJ seems to be very strangely quiet about the subject. The only thing I can think of is they dont mind the trading but for some reason they can not come out and say it's ok to trade them, maybe some kind of contractual thing.

Originally posted by Mr MacPhisto
yeah. it would be like.. i'll trade you gish for siamese dream.

thank you mr. frank quinto. i realize what is legal and what isn't.

did you know that i have 24 gigs of mp3s on my hard drive? i'm not talking about bootlegs. these are studio(mostly) albums, ripped, and converted to mp3. sometimes i even burn them to cd.

you know why i have all those mp3s? because i can't afford to buy all the music i'm into. i buy 5-10 cds a month as well.

anyways, my point is that people are going to trade these shows with others, just like the 2000 sbds, just like avalon, just like mashed potatoes, just like people torrent stuff that is banned from the hub, etc etc etc...

you can't stop people from getting music, movies, and software for free if they want to. the corporations, mpaa and riaa don't have a chance. they had a chance but they blew it years and years ago when the costs of production went down, but they failed to drop the prices along with it. it blew up in their faces.

thank you.

Originally posted by Andrew Fogelsong


thank you mr. frank quinto. i realize what is legal and what isn't.

did you know that i have 24 gigs of mp3s on my hard drive? i'm not talking about bootlegs. these are studio(mostly) albums, ripped, and converted to mp3. sometimes i even burn them to cd.

you know why i have all those mp3s? because i can't afford to buy all the music i'm into. i buy 5-10 cds a month as well.

anyways, my point is that people are going to trade these shows with others, just like the 2000 sbds, just like avalon, just like mashed potatoes, just like people torrent stuff that is banned from the hub, etc etc etc...

you can't stop people from getting music, movies, and software for free if they want to. the corporations, mpaa and riaa don't have a chance. they had a chance but they blew it years and years ago when the costs of production went down, but they failed to drop the prices along with it. it blew up in their faces.

thank you.

Yep an now there is the new industry stratagy of "Hey look now you can buy mp3's on I-tunes and they cost us nothing but cost you the same amount, and you get that high quality MP3 sound, with all the built in DRM you need so that when your computer crashes and you loose your rights to the songs your fucked, oh and you can put the songs on an iPod but guess what you cant transfer them off"

I was reading this really interesting site and they were talking about how with iTunes the artist gets at most 11 cents per song and someone raised the issue and Apple removed "fair to the artists" from their ads and website.

Here

http://www.downhillbattle.org/itunes/

There needs to be an open, secure and Internet-based system similar to iTunes which gives the artists maximum return, and allows fans to d/l lossless files. One that isn't enforced/run by a big corporation, but a co-op or individual bands.

Originally posted by Dead
I was reading this really interesting site and they were talking about how with iTunes the artist gets at most 11 cents per song and someone raised the issue and Apple removed "fair to the artists" from their ads and website.

Here

http://www.downhillbattle.org/itunes/

The same is true for buying CD's though. The bands on the top 5 majors don't see much from record sales.

I don't know if anyone bothered to read the site, it's really interesting, but they say iTunes keeps the 5 major labels in control as music moves to the internet, and it's no good because the artists just continue to get screwed.

It also mentions certain programs where an artist can bypass major labels and sell on iTunes and make a bit more profit.

I suggest reading the site.

Originally posted by Andrew Fogelsong
you know why i have all those mp3s? because i can't afford to buy all the music i'm into. i buy 5-10 cds a month as well.hmm...

you know why i rob my supermarket every week. because i can't afford everything i want. but hey, i pay for the first three items. i'm an honest man! and it's their own fault, they are too expensive.

Originally posted by CoolAsIceCream
hmm...

you know why i rob my supermarket every week. because i can't afford everything i want. but hey, i pay for the first three items. i'm an honest man! and it's their own fault, they are too expensive. http://www.petercousens.com/photos/lesmis007.jpg

Originally posted by Dead
I don't know if anyone bothered to read the site, it's really interesting, but they say iTunes keeps the 5 major labels in control as music moves to the internet, and it's no good because the artists just continue to get screwed.

It also mentions certain programs where an artist can bypass major labels and sell on iTunes and make a bit more profit.

I suggest reading the site.

I got a friend who is highly involved with itunes, and i remember him telling me not to long ago that itunes didn't host any smashing pumpkins material at all. But your comment about the artist bypassing the label would be a great idea.

Also, isn't there a way to make cd's so you are not able to copy whats on them. i got these cds from a guy once and he did that to a few of them, making it so you can't rip or copy the cd with your computer. I don't know if its something you could do, but if they were to release this stuff in cd, and your worried about it being copied and distributed (dc++ or something) then maybe could try this method to prevent it a little. Thats if it even works or is a way.

Originally posted by vahn

Also, isn't there a way to make cd's so you are not able to copy whats on them. i got these cds from a guy once and he did that to a few of them, making it so you can't rip or copy the cd with your computer.
This works for a lot of people with either bad cd drives or who don't know what they're doing. I've read that almost every Mac can bypass this without even trying because they use a good cd/dvd drive. If they put copy protection on new SP stuff I would be very hesitant to buy it.

Originally posted by vahn

Also, isn't there a way to make cd's so you are not able to copy whats on them.

No. Technically, copy protection violates the CD-Audio standard. So, copy protected discs are technically not CDs ;)
Copy protection for CDs used to be rather popular here in Europe. But recently, some major labels announced they're going to stop copy-protecting their CDs due to the high number of customers not being able to even play them in their portable cd players/car cd players/dvd players/etc.

Anyway, my Plextor doesn't seem to care about any copy protection ;)

Originally posted by CoolAsIceCream
hmm...

you know why i rob my supermarket every week. because i can't afford everything i want. but hey, i pay for the first three items. i'm an honest man! and it's their own fault, they are too expensive.

if you talk to most bands in person about it, almost all of them would rather you go see them in concert that buy their CD.

this is what i do. i'm still supporting the artist.

to continue the metaphor, i'm just going to farmer's market, not the supermarket.

i would love for this to happen. i would definately buy, at the very least, one show.

Originally posted by GoGadget
i would definately buy, at the very least, one show.
Whoa man, don't go getting carried away now!

Originally posted by Dead

Whoa man, don't go getting carried away now!

I can just see Billy is his secret underground lair, sitting on "teh ninternat"

"FUCK MAN GOGAGET'S ON BOARD!@

LET'S MAKE THIS THING FLY!!!!":(

Heh that made me laugh. :D

Originally posted by Andrew Fogelsong
i'm still supporting the artist.

to continue the metaphor, i'm just going to farmer's market, not the supermarket. going to the farmer's market doesn't give you the right to go shoplifting in the supermarket.

i mean, i understand what you're saying, but it doesn't make sense. "i'm still supporting the artist" isn't a good argument.
it's not up to you to decide what you buy and what you steal. they make the prices. if you don't like it, you don't get it. it's that simple.

I know I shouldn't be getting involved in this because I trade albums too, and I'm sure most of us trade or download them, but just for the sake of argument coolasicecream kind of wins, sorry Andrew. http://forums.netphoria.org/wwwboard/icons/icon14.gif

One thing I won't do is trade albums I have bought by bands I have some amount of respect for, such as THE PUMPKINS!

There's my input.

I would buy everything released from '90 - '94 and definitely the entire '99 Arising Tour. Shit, I'd probably buy anything that was released. I would prefer CD's in cheap sleeves with cheap artwork, but I'd take it anyway it's offered.

It would be interesting if different shows were only made available to certain regions. Then, of course, we would have to have permission to do snail mail trades to complete our collections! That would save us all some $$$ and keep the trading scene interesting.

On the PJ note, the official boots are not to be downloaded or traded as long as they are available in stores. That's the policy on the PJ Hub and it's based upon some comments from the band.

Has anyone else downloaded any of Metallica's 2004 tour? The sound is awful (even the lossless). I don't know if it's the mix or what...

I downloaded Dave + Friend's Bonnaroo 2004 show from the official site and it sounds AMAZING. It came with nice artwork too. I'm looking forward to future downloads from that site. I'll buy anything they make available, and I'm not even a HUGE fan. It's just good live music (imho) and the quality is fantastic.

DO IT BILLY!!! Start with a pure digital source of Machina II, then follow it up with a nice clean soundboard mix of the complete '94 Astoria gig, and then .... OH DAMN!!! ... the 1993.08.14 Metro show (that "Starla" is perfect) ... I CAN'T STOP.......

-Mike

Yeah, everyone is going to have their favourite shows...I'd kill to hear the Auckland Big Day Out 1994 show...

Originally posted by CoolAsIceCream
it's not up to you to decide what you buy and what you steal. they make the prices. if you don't like it, you don't get it. it's that simple.

yes, it is up to me. i made the decision for myself. if i wanted them to be making the decisions for me, i'd be listening to clear channel radio, watching mtv, and shopping at the mall - none of which i do.

and i don't like most of the prices. you know how the "economy of scale" idea works, right? the more units you manufacture, the cheaper the cost is per unit... it also gets cheaper per unit because the manufacturer gets its supplies from someone else, who gets them from someone else, etc... all of whom are operating with this "economy of scale" idea. all of this combined yields a lower cost per unit for the final product, right? notice how computers get cheaper and cheaper to buy every year, even though the comptuers themselves are getting faster and more powerful? that's because they actually pass the "economy of scale" savings onto the customer. typically, record companies don't do this. prices for cds have been rising for years and years. remember when brand new, major label cds cost $12.98? It's been a while - we're up to $18.98 now. Although one of the five major record companies that output 90% of what's sold in the market DID lower their prices, I'll be suprised when the other four comapnies follow suit. And don't try to argue that the price increases were just keeping up with inflation - the computer manufacturers would have done the same thing, wouldn't they? Also, the CDs sold today don't have new and improved technology over the CDs sold 10-20 years ago.

keep it coming, i like where this discussion is going.

Originally posted by Andrew Fogelsong


yes, it is up to me. i made the decision for myself. if i wanted them to be making the decisions for me, i'd be listening to clear channel radio, watching mtv, and shopping at the mall - none of which i do.

and i don't like most of the prices. you know how the "economy of scale" idea works, right? the more units you manufacture, the cheaper the cost is per unit... it also gets cheaper per unit because the manufacturer gets its supplies from someone else, who gets them from someone else, etc... all of whom are operating with this "economy of scale" idea. all of this combined yields a lower cost per unit for the final product, right? notice how computers get cheaper and cheaper to buy every year, even though the comptuers themselves are getting faster and more powerful? that's because they actually pass the "economy of scale" savings onto the customer. typically, record companies don't do this. prices for cds have been rising for years and years. remember when brand new, major label cds cost $12.98? It's been a while - we're up to $18.98 now. Although one of the five major record companies that output 90% of what's sold in the market DID lower their prices, I'll be suprised when the other four comapnies follow suit. And don't try to argue that the price increases were just keeping up with inflation - the computer manufacturers would have done the same thing, wouldn't they? Also, the CDs sold today don't have new and improved technology over the CDs sold 10-20 years ago.

keep it coming, i like where this discussion is going. i'm with you on that argument, but i'm playing devil's advocat.

the price of a cd is not determined by the production of the media, but by the costs of the production of the content. as long as record companies shove hundreds of millions of dollars into the asses of single artists cd's can't get cheaper (see robbie williams, mariah carey etc.) or bands like korn burning millions of dollars on production costs for a flopping album.

Originally posted by Andrew Fogelsong
yes, it is up to me. i made the decision for myself. if i wanted them to be making the decisions for me, i'd be listening to clear channel radio, watching mtv, and shopping at the mall - none of which i do.no, no, no, you got me wrong. of course you should decide what you listen to yourself. but you can't make your own deals like "i'll buy two of their albums and copy the other two, so i'm not that bad".

of course albums are ridiculously overpriced. i think so too. but the record companies make and promote them, and they decide what they ask for it. if that's too much, then don't buy it. something being overpriced doesn't give you the right to steal it. (i'm sure you agree copying music is stealing, right?)

Originally posted by severin
i'm with you on that argument, but i'm playing devil's advocat.

the price of a cd is not determined by the production of the media, but by the costs of the production of the content. as long as record companies shove hundreds of millions of dollars into the asses of single artists cd's can't get cheaper (see robbie williams, mariah carey etc.) or bands like korn burning millions of dollars on production costs for a flopping album.


i was wondering if i should have brought up the point about content production costs going up...

i can't remember exactly when this happened, probably the mid-late 90s, but REM signed a contract giving them $20 million per album they put out. I'll bet the record company is pretty upset about that now, since REM hasn't put out anything that's *really* moved some units in quite a while.

sorry to keep bringing up computer companies, but research and development costs go up with each new wave of technology or increase in performance. it gets harder and harder to make these machines go faster, yet they advertise a ton of well. anyways, it is really sick how much money the record companies throw at the pop artists that will only last 2-3 years. what they should be doing is throwing money at the good bands that will be around for a while. honestly, the only major label band that's been selling well in the last few years, and really good in my opinion, is Coldplay. Although the indie boy in me has been pretty annoyed that they've been doing well though, but the analysis of that mentality is a completely different discussion... I'll get back to you, I need to get ready to go out.

Originally posted by Dead
So this is just your idea or has Billy said anything about it at all recently that you know of? I'm just wondering if it's something to get excited about. Am I wrong or did this question never got an answer in this thread? I'm also quite interested in the answer.

(Excuse me if it got answered already. I didn't find it.)

Originally posted by CoolAsIceCream
Am I wrong or did this question never got an answer in this thread? I'm also quite interested in the answer.

(Excuse me if it got answered already. I didn't find it.)
He answered it in private but I don't really remember the answer and I don't think anything will really come of it. I'm pretty sure it came from Quinto more than Billy. So whatever... he can post and refute this if he wants.

I remeber the answer to me in provate being "yeah Billys thinking about it.". This seems to be one those carrots Billy likes to dangel in our faces every now and then. I doubt he will ever do it.

In December 2000 he mentions the online distribution of live shows in an interview.

http://www.netphoria.org/oldnews_dec2000.htm

Frontman Billy Corgan said he plans to reissue all of the group's albums within the next few years, with several of the reissues packaged with previously unreleased bonus tracks.

"There's tons of stuff - we can live posthumously for a long time. We recorded a lot," Corgan, 33, said, adding that the band has multitrack tapes of more than 400 live shows that he would like to make available to fans when a reliable online distribution scheme develops.

"The band's archives are pretty deep. From a fan point of view, the variations on how the band played the songs live give us a lot of leeway," he said. "It's not like we always played one version of 'Bullet [With Butterfly Wings]' (RealAudio excerpt) - we have five different versions of 'Bullet,' seven versions of 'Silverfuck.' The band's sound and the band's attack always changed from year to year, so we can go pretty deep into our live catalog."

Among the unearthed gems that Corgan plans to bring to light are previously unreleased demos from the band's 1991 debut, Gish, as well the 28 additional songs recorded for the 1995 double album Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness.

The group's final, four-and-a-half hour show on Saturday at Chicago's Metro nightclub, as well as the five-hours-plus rehearsal the night before and a number of dates on their final European tour were videotaped. A spokesperson for the band said it has not yet been determined if those performances will be released commercially. If we're lucky, one day it will come. Just not today.

What's the big deal about the 95 Double Door shows,the setlists?

Originally posted by Screamin' Wild
What's the big deal about the 95 Double Door shows,the setlists? Yes, indeed. Only time Towers Of Rabble and Speed were played live. Also rare live performances of Set The Ray To Jerry. And maybe some others I'm forgetting. (spfc.org is your friend.)

Also, everyone would like to see a soundboard recording of these, because what is available right now is horrible quality.

Originally posted by CoolAsIceCream
Yes, indeed. Only time Towers Of Rabble and Speed were played live. Also rare live performances of Set The Ray To Jerry. And maybe some others I'm forgetting. (spfc.org is your friend.)

Also, everyone would like to see a soundboard recording of these, because what is available right now is horrible quality.

Pretty much the only time Towers of Rabble was palyed at all. From what I heard it never made it into the studio.