I watched cnn some last night and they interviewed an uncle of one of the accused. He claims the photos actually were staged,
they paid iraqis to pose for the pix, which were then shown to real prisoners by MI [military intell] to intimidate them into talking.
like 'you could end up there if you don't' so who knows the truth ?

I thought this was interesting as the photos did look a little stages and silly. Also some photos of two Americans having sex were in the stack of pictures. Its all very fishy and I don't think we will ever learn what actually happened, although I'm sure somewhere people were abused during interrogation. I am pretty sick of hearing about it 24 hours a day though.

ya, i saw an interview w/ that uncle as well. he was claiming the soldiers have notes about what was done and why, from before the drama actually broke...right? hmm.

i highly highly doubt these were staged as you described... i think the true story has been told, that these were simply tortures done and photographed. the reason they look "staged" is probably because they were ordered by their superiors to carry out these acts in a certain fashion. it sounds like this "uncle" guy is just trying to get off the hook. and i think it's good that this is being shown "24 hours a day," because people should see what's going on.

Originally posted by if you are
i highly highly doubt these were staged as you described... i think the true story has been told, that these were simply tortures done and photographed. the reason they look "staged" is probably because they were ordered by their superiors to carry out these acts in a certain fashion. it sounds like this "uncle" guy is just trying to get off the hook. and i think it's good that this is being shown "24 hours a day," because people should see what's going on.

This version is every bit as credible as the other. Basically all we know is that there were pictures. Everything else about them and the circumstances in which they were taken has been inferred. If the 24 hr news coverage eventually helps us get down to the real circumstances behind the photos, thats well and good. The truth needs to be known. But if the 24 hr news stories actually don't have their facts straight and have been portraying these photos as something they're not, then its a shame.

I think its okay to lean towards beleiving the photos are not staged, and depict actual humiliation (not torture) of actual prisoners. Thats probably the correct view. But seeing as the photos are all we have to judge on, I'm not so willing just to blindly dismiss plausible alternate theories.

the sad thing is that the "torture" our military committed really does represent America and American values. the arab world has no reason to respect or trust our country. it is obvious to them that we have no respect for their culture. i think this was our battle plan.

1. invade Iraq- easy
2. topple Hussain- easy
3. quickly install puppet govt. give US companies that supported campaign millions in contracts to rebuild Iraq.

get cheap oil for big oil. use puppet govt to spread the seed of capitalism and western values.

disarming the middle east one country at a time while instilling Western values and culture in your wake is the perfect recipe for world domination.

we fucked up after #2. anyway, this is what happens when an illegitimate president is elected. It disrupts the balance of the universe.

Originally posted by Vulva
this is what happens when an illegitimate president is elected. beautifully put.

Too bad according to the United States election system George W Bush was elected ACCORDING TO THE FUCKING RULES YOU GOD DAMN MORON.


I swear, I hate Bush too but why be so ignorant to say he is an "illegitimate president"? I think we both know the electoral college determines the president and not the popular vote so why get so upset and act like thats not how it is? It happened before this election and sometime in the future it will probably happen again.


As far as if you are, you do a lot of "thinking" but little listening. You have only seen the photos. You do not know the real situation. Neither do I or anyone except the military personel involved in the situations. I was merely pointing out there are other possibilities besides rampant torture in the Iraq prisons. I do not doubt there have been some incidents but it is also possible some or all of the photos were staged as well.

As far as Vulva's little war for oil thing, sadly it is way more complicated than that.

I'm almost ready to become a fucking Bush supporter. Not because I like him but because everyone on the side of the left seems to love to just jump on these Bush bashing band wagons with little to no fact to support their arguments.

Originally posted by I_was_aborted
Too bad according to the United States election system George W Bush was elected ACCORDING TO THE FUCKING RULES YOU GOD DAMN MORON.


I swear, I hate Bush too but why be so ignorant to say he is an "illegitimate president"? I think we both know the electoral college determines the president and not the popular vote so why get so upset and act like thats not how it is? It happened before this election and sometime in the future it will probably happen again.


As far as if you are, you do a lot of "thinking" but little listening. You have only seen the photos. You do not know the real situation. Neither do I or anyone except the military personel involved in the situations. I was merely pointing out there are other possibilities besides rampant torture in the Iraq prisons. I do not doubt there have been some incidents but it is also possible some or all of the photos were staged as well.

As far as Vulva's little war for oil thing, sadly it is way more complicated than that.

I'm almost ready to become a fucking Bush supporter. Not because I like him but because everyone on the side of the left seems to love to just jump on these Bush bashing band wagons with little to no fact to support their arguments.

by illegitimate, i meant the voter fraud. our president is a pathetic human being. i can't wait to see how well he was coached for his next speech.

Originally posted by Vulva

i meant the voter fraud

evidence please?

Originally posted by jczeroman


evidence please?

Right before the election the state of Florida disqualified over 90,000 people from their list of eligible voters under the guise that they were felons. In fact, almost none of the disenfranchised voters were felons...but almost all were blacks or democrats.

http://www.infernalpress.com/Columns/election.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/events/newsnight/1174115.stm


but seriously, whats the point since you're just gonna call it bullshit, baselessly.

I've read about that already, isn't it unable to be investigated due to something stupid? Doesn't matter though, I believe the election would have went to Bush either way.

Originally posted by Vulva
sour grapes

Originally posted by Debaser

but seriously, whats the point since you're just gonna call it bullshit, baselessly.

I am not going to be debasing everything. That would make me a debaser!

Originally posted by Debaser

http://www.infernalpress.com/Columns/election.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/events/newsnight/1174115.stm


Looks liek there is definitely a possibility this is right. I might be willing to accept your arguement if you provide me a better source. The BBC one is pretty good, btu it has a lot of hearsay. The other one is very thorough but doen't seem very credible. IF you want to find me something a bit mroe concert, I might very well believe this.

Originally posted by Corganist


This version is every bit as credible as the other. Basically all we know is that there were pictures. Everything else about them and the circumstances in which they were taken has been inferred. If the 24 hr news coverage eventually helps us get down to the real circumstances behind the photos, thats well and good. The truth needs to be known. But if the 24 hr news stories actually don't have their facts straight and have been portraying these photos as something they're not, then its a shame.

I think its okay to lean towards beleiving the photos are not staged, and depict actual humiliation (not torture) of actual prisoners. Thats probably the correct view. But seeing as the photos are all we have to judge on, I'm not so willing just to blindly dismiss plausible alternate theories.

Don't you think it's strange that if all this were the case, high-ranking members of the administration still came out and said it was appalling, there was no excuse, these people should be dealt with etc? Not to mention all the reports from various sources corroborating the claims of abuse. If all these were staged, it would have been brought to the attention of those in charge very quickly, and they wouldn't have allowed the story to go as far as it has. It's more likely that someone realized they're in the shit, and decided to make up an excuse.

Or maybe the abuse is real. They staged the photos to show other Iraqis what would happen if they didn't cooperate. They fought a war just like wars are fought, with pain and suffering. Wake the fuck up. These people no longer care if we want to leave Iraq. They never did care if you didn't want your government to stay out of Iraq. To them you were the enemy long ago. To them this is a religious war, to them this is to die for because it is the will of Allah. Our government has to do things that we don't find "humane" or right to get us out of this situation and also to help reduce the threat against America. Arguing whether we should have went in or not is pointless now. Now we are fighting to get out. We are fighting to protect ourselves from the religious flames that burn so brightly in the hearts of those that wish death upon all Christians and non-believers, all tax payers in America who help fuel the war machine. Its pretty fucking scary if you ask me and I'll let the government do whatever they want to whoever they want as long as it keeps America from turning into a shithole of terrorism and violence like 75% of the middle eastern countries.

^^

Ok dude.

Lol that was a little overboard but I hope you understand the actual point that lies within.

Well here's a point - terrorism is a natural counterpoint to conventional warfare. The stronger your enemy is in conventional terms, the stronger you need to be to fight them. And if you're not powerful enough, you have to fight in the unconventional way. So - what we have here is the world's most conventionally powerful nation invading a small, crippled country in the name of freedom, then incarcerating a number of people (who aren't all necessarily even guilty of anything) and then abusing them. They can't fight back, because they're prisoners. People in the country don't like to see their fellow Iraqis being treated this way by an occupying power, but they can't do anything about it because the other country is too strong. So guess what happens?

Shit like this does not make you safer, because kicking someone while they're down does not make them permanently subservient and agreeable. This may be WAR™ but we started it, not them, we were supposed to be liberating them from oppression to bring them a just and free society, and this sort of thing is not acceptable. To try and justify it by saying 'each and every one of these people is GUILTY and would DESTROY THE CHRISTIAN WORLD FOR ALLAH if they had the chance so GO GET EM BOYS' is ridiculous.

I did not say everyone of "those people" were guilty. I was speaking only of the muslim terrorists. Torture during interrogation(which is what this was used for)has been going on in every war on this planet. Only now when every thing is such a fucking media war does it make it into every household in the world. Everyone is still using the same warfare techniques but times are different so now the rest of the world has to hear about every last bloody detail. My god, they film the whole fucking war and put it only tv 24 hours a day. This is shit that has been going on since the start of man, only now can we show everyone on tv.

Originally posted by I_was_aborted
I did not say everyone of "those people" were guilty. I was speaking only of the muslim terrorists. Torture during interrogation(which is what this was used for)has been going on in every war on this planet. Only now when every thing is such a fucking media war does it make it into every household in the world. Everyone is still using the same warfare techniques but times are different so now the rest of the world has to hear about every last bloody detail. My god, they film the whole fucking war and put it only tv 24 hours a day. This is shit that has been going on since the start of man, only now can we show everyone on tv.

"Those people" means the people being held in these prisons - they are not 'muslim terrorists' by default. They could be completely innocent people whose lives are now utterly destroyed by some assholes who were put in a position of power without the maturity required to deal with it. People may not have heard about war so much before, but so what? That somehow makes it right, just because you don't have to hear or think about it? People have been raped and murdered in their homes for centuries too, does that mean these things shouldn't be prevented from happening? War isn't something you vote on, with a little box saying 'I would like to initiate a state of war. I have read and understand the terms and conditions which apply.'

Originally posted by DeviousJ


Don't you think it's strange that if all this were the case, high-ranking members of the administration still came out and said it was appalling, there was no excuse, these people should be dealt with etc? Not to mention all the reports from various sources corroborating the claims of abuse. If all these were staged, it would have been brought to the attention of those in charge very quickly, and they wouldn't have allowed the story to go as far as it has. It's more likely that someone realized they're in the shit, and decided to make up an excuse.

Like I said, your view is most likely the right one. I'm just saying that we don't really know anything about the circumstances of the pictures other than the inferences of the media who initially reported on them. The gov't response has been primarily one of damage control thus far. If the 'staged' theory is true (though not likely), it probably won't be found out for a while.

Originally posted by Corganist


Like I said, your view is most likely the right one. I'm just saying that we don't really know anything about the circumstances of the pictures other than the inferences of the media who initially reported on them. The gov't response has been primarily one of damage control thus far. If the 'staged' theory is true (though not likely), it probably won't be found out for a while.

Well you said they were every bit as credible as each other, which is taking things a little far. What I'm saying is, the military has been seen in an incredibly bad light, and has basically said 'sorry, we'll deal with it' - which is damage control if these soldiers are guilty, but if they're not then it's causing damage. It's pretty obvious that the second the top level was made aware of these pictures, they were calling the relevant people and asking 'what the fuck is going on over there?' If this was staged, and a common procedure, they'd have been informed of it immediately and got a better story together instead of conceding that abuse was actually taking place. Obviously this doesn't make things absolutely definite, but there's a lot of evidence in the way officials are behaving over this which suggests that these abuses were in fact real.

Originally posted by jczeroman


Looks liek there is definitely a possibility this is right. I might be willing to accept your arguement if you provide me a better source. The BBC one is pretty good, btu it has a lot of hearsay. The other one is very thorough but doen't seem very credible. IF you want to find me something a bit mroe concert, I might very well believe this.

So dude, what the hell? I am ready to reverse my opinion, where's the cornerstone to make this thing stand on it's own two feet?

Originally posted by if you are
i highly highly doubt these were staged as you described... i think the true story has been told, that these were simply tortures done and photographed. the reason they look "staged" is probably because they were ordered by their superiors to carry out these acts in a certain fashion.

that was my early opinion on may 12th, and it turned out that i was right.. their superiors ordered the soldiers to do this. to me it's kind of disheartening to see blame thrown on the lowly soldiers that did this.. (do these people not understand the military?!! soldiers do WHATEVER they're told WHENEVER they're told, PERIOD. that's what being an american soldier is about. it's not about doing what you want to do or think is right). it's really sick what the superior officials did.. our military is really fucked up and infiltrated by lots of morons right now, if you ask me. they talk about acting with "honor," and then you read stories in newsweek about them killing babies and old ladies because they don't have a translator and don't understand what the person is saying. it's just ridiculous. but the real question is, why the fuck are we having this war in the first place, when there were certainly better long-term, cheaper solutions that could have been given attention to, considering THERE ARE NO WMD