god mary star of the sea is a gorgeous fucking album

i can't understand why more people don't love it



let's hear all the explanations...doesn't it clip or something pseudo-muscially intellectual like that??

it's an okay album but they just put the wrong songs on it....that is all.

I dont have much against this album, unlike most of the people here. This album was good on the whole, I liked just about every song with the exception of Baby Lets Rock, Yeah, and Desire (coincidentally three songs in a row). I thought the marketing of the album was terrible and I thought the video that was done for Honestly was even worse. While this optimistic thinking, perhaps if they had made a better video for Honestly it could have gotten more playtime. The song itself wasn't bad and it was poppy enough for MTV. Although I do enjoy the CD, there is no denying that a good portion of the November 2001 songs should have been on the album (i.e. Glorious, Chrysanthemum, My Lifes + Times, Shining Path, etc.) and could have other tracks. MSOTS was a cool album but some weak decision were made in the making and promoting of it.

My problem with the album is that it could have been so much better.

Zwan had some brilliant songs behind them, it's just a pity that more of them made that cock-tease of a DVD than the album itself. I guess the fact that the first Zwan song I heard was a live Jesus I/Mary Star of The Sea helped me feel underwhelmed by the album though, as i was kind of hoping the album would be more like this than stuff like Heartsong and Baby Let's Rock.

Originally posted by Age Of Empathy
Although I do enjoy the CD, there is no denying that a good portion of the November 2001 songs should have been on the album (i.e. Glorious, Chrysanthemum, My Lifes + Times, Shining Path, etc.). MSOTS was a cool album but some weak decision were made in the making and promoting of it.

I would agree with this. In and of itself, I like the album, but knowing what else they had in their catalog complicates my feelings towards it.

Originally posted by DeadOpera
it's an okay album but they just put the wrong songs on it....that is all.

hey, you are not making any sense...

1. The songs aren't very diverse. Other than Jesus/Mary, they're all so organically put together. Verse, chorus, verse, chorus. Makes a lot of the songs feel plain, cheap... insignificant. Unlike many Smashing Pumpkins songs, there aren't any cool "middle" parts. There aren't any songs with awesome melody-changes, like in Geek U.S.A., which feels like it has three or four songs all put into one. I think the lack of diversity in the album is my biggest problem with it.

2. Billy's voice is awful. Adore was when he was at his peak in terms of voice. He started to take singing lessons for that album, but because it was at an infant stage then, it was a nice mix of old-Billy with a more controlled-Billy. Machina comes along, and he starts to use vibrato, which is nice, sometimes, but not for Billy. For Zwan, and everything else he does now, he uses way, way too much vibrato. There's a saying in voice practice that says vibrato is very difficult to control/not do after you learn to do it. It becomes second-nature. So that's where Billy's at, now. Maybe in a year or two, he'll be able to have it under control. But right now, it's cheesy. Vibrato sounds awful with a voice that usually only sounds good as a screaming whine, or a blown whisper. Also, he just can't hit those high notes like he could in Adore, and all the albums prior to it. So a lot of his songs have his voice circulating around lower octaves... which again, takes away from the diversity.

3. The presentation of the album really sucks. Smashing Pumpkins albums were so great in terms of liner artwork, track-order, etc. MSOTS feels like some kid made it on his PC in three hours. The booklet has absolutely no depth or content. The track order is pretty lame. It just doesn't flow like SP albums.

...btw, I'm comparing it to a lot of SP albums because Billy wrote 90% of the Zwan album, and 100% of the SP albums.

4. They were supposed to be some awesome, super-power group, since they had three guitarists, an amazing dummer, and Billy's lyrical talent. Except, it didn't sound like it at all, did it? I felt like SP albums... with only two guitarists... had a more heavier, denser guitar sound than anything on the Zwan album. Sure, a lot of it was because of multi-tracking on SP albums, but Zwan did it, too. And while I know Billy took a step back to have a more simpler approach to lyrics, but as you can observe, he still had the "poetic" verse now and then. But the difference between that mix of the abstract and simplicity in his lyrics from SP albums, and that of the Zwan album... the abstract lyrics of Zwan's album sound so contrived! The words sound like they're poetic because he felt like he had to make them that way. I felt that in Machina, too. So again, post Adore, Billy's lyrics started to contain this sort of... contrived sense. It probably has a lot to do with him running out of ideas. I mean, look at how many songs he's written. Hard to not duplicate ideas. He's successful at that, in a way. But it's even harder not to duplicate ideas while also making it good. He's kinda on a fine line with that right now.

5. No sense of personal relationship. Prior to and including Adore, Billy's lyrics allowed the listener to relate. But with Machina and on, his lyrics became too Billy-oriented. So now, his songs are more about liking the sound, rather than enjoying the emotion. A few songs on the Zwan album have that spark from years ago, though, like El Sol, but the majority are so centered toward Billy's life that it's just hard to really get into the feel of it all. Which I think was a major failure for convincing the public that Billy could pull of another successful band.

Originally posted by Reyngel


very well put.

Originally posted by sphere


very well put.


looking for some booty to suck up to?:rolleyes:

My main problem with it is lyrical. There's at least one point in just about every song that makes me cringe. There's a lot of problems with it on the whole, but for me, that's the most glaring one.

Originally posted by Reyngel

Also, he just can't hit those high notes like he could in Adore, and all the albums prior to it.

that can can be fixed with practice...so its not that he can't, he just won't

Originally posted by Reyngel


I concur.

Originally posted by sphere


hey, you are not making any sense...

you just don't understand....

here let me make it easier for you to understand.

MSOTS is a good album.
It would have been better if they put their better songs on it.

Originally posted by DeadOpera


you just don't understand....

here let me make it easier for you to understand.

MSOTS is a good album.
It would have been better if they put their better songs on it.

i think you are funny!

Originally posted by sphere


i think you are funny!

I THINK YUO ARE A MORAN!

The songs all sound very empty to me.

basically what reyngel said, but also:

1:msots was over-produced and glossy as fuck. it lacked so much character. i thought honestly had a little, for some reason i like it, probably because i heard it for the first time when i was out on a magical trip to the seaside and was just happy that billy was back in action. although i really love some of his acoustic songs...my life and times and love lies in ruin are just beautiful.

2.you could really tell the band were trying too hard. i never really thought billy could sing zwan's songs sincerly, they seemed more like vocal masturbation. the only song i can remember billy singing really happily was luna with the pumpkins...it's like you can feel the love. he was probably very pleased at the time because the band were recording the last song on a masterpiece, let alone a very difficult one for billy to write. (you probably know that he was almost suicidal prior to fixing his writer's block).

3.the packaging was just crap. with the pumpkins, you had this involving, magical artwork that just sucked you in totally. from the ass-kickin ironic art funk of gish, to the hazy summer of sd, to the dramatic dystopia of adore, the albums made you want to live inside them. the cartoony pastel rainbows of msots really fall flat on their ass in comparison. instead of not leaving enough to the imagination they just gave you nothing to imagine, which is worse.

4.yeah, the msots tracklist was gay. they needed to rough up some of the production too, each song was just meh to the point of irritation. although the roughing-up production doesn't ******* clipping.

5.you know those little stickers on albums in stores that say stuff like "*******s the singles..." etc? i dont remember ever seeing a pumpkins album with those, but every zwan album did. i think they piss people off. they seem "needy".

on the whole, zwan was definately billy's mid-life crisis. he knows he should just get back to rockin out. actually, judging by his recent "flirting" with life in chicago i wouldn't be surprised if he ends up as mayor. meh!

i agree with most of what regynel said. but i would like to add a bit:

the main reason why i was so dissapointed with zwan was the fact that billy was making it and i had such high expectations for it. i realize that comparing msots to sp is a fallacy but come on, after listening to stuff like sd, mcis, and adore (not to mention the early zwan stuff and the djali zwan stuff), jesus no wonder we all got pissed off!

having said that i would also like to further contradict myself and say that listening to a 20 minute version of mary star of the sea in seattle while billy rocked out like a mofo in front of me was stupendous!!!!

Originally posted by eraserhead


having said that i would also like to further contradict myself and say that listening to a 20 minute version of mary star of the sea in seattle while billy rocked out like a mofo in front of me was stupendous!!!!

he's the top
he's the tip
he's the championship

he's the most tip-top (nananana)

top cat aka b0lly

i just don't think the dynamics of the band really worked.

I originally thought it was a production problem, but after listening to a few of their live performances it's clear that the band just didn't integrate very well.

You can't just get 3 guitarists and get them to out-solo each other, and not have it sound like a heavy mess. The guitar parts should be better orchestrated and work together.
They could have taken a few lessons from other bands that excell with the 3 guitar dynamic (radiohead for example).

And lastly, billy was at his least creative and aspirational when he was in zwan, so practically all the songs sounded extremely mediocre and soulless.

Originally posted by DeadOpera


I THINK YUO ARE A MORAN!

don't be so harsh. it was a compliment.

Originally posted by sphere


don't be so harsh. it was a compliment.

i thought i was being "funny"

machina > msots

Originally posted by Ensoul
machina > msots

I thought they both were sub-par.