View Full Version : crackpot theories why adore failed


Porcelina Ruby
08-23-2003, 09:21 AM
-cd wasn't red, no red version(sd was red and dawn to dusk was also red)
-pumpkins were never complete during a recording session after mcis
-there are no james/billy songs on the two major releases after mcis

bonsor
08-23-2003, 10:04 AM
adore failed?

jet set willy
08-23-2003, 11:50 AM
i wish the pumpkins didn't go so goth looking.

akaneironokaze
08-23-2003, 11:55 AM
maybe it was because
it already happend two years after the last release
and a lot a people forget'em

Elvis The Fat Years
08-23-2003, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by ******
adore failed?

The Gaddrow
08-23-2003, 04:18 PM
Originally posted by Porcelina Ruby
-pumpkins were never complete during a recording session after mcis They weren't? Who was missing during the Machina sessions? (Besides Billy's mind)

Porcelina Ruby
08-23-2003, 04:44 PM
Originally posted by The Gaddrow
They weren't? Who was missing during the Machina sessions? (Besides Billy's mind)


D'arcy??? It has been said a lot that the bass had been played by james....

btw you can say that adore ended the popularity of sp...

Boycott Graceland
08-23-2003, 04:51 PM
there isn't a cat-wedding in the booklet.

bonsor
08-23-2003, 04:51 PM
adore is a fucking amazing album in all aspects. Billy could have very easily done all he could to appeal to the masses by creating another incarnation of MCIS. It may have sold more, but what kind of emotional connection would it have made to the people that bought it, as opposed to the 3 million who bought adore.

I know this sounds trite and lame, but a good artist sees an album's sales as secondary to what really matters, which is how good of a piece of art it is. Sure, Adore sold considerably less than mellon collie, but it's probably he album that's closest to mine, as well as many others' hearts, something that MCIS II could never have done.

Porcelina Ruby
08-23-2003, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by ******
adore is a fucking amazing album in all aspects. Billy could have very easily done all he could to appeal to the masses by creating another incarnation of MCIS. It may have sold more, but what kind of emotional connection would it have made to the people that bought it, as opposed to the 3 million who bought adore.

I know this sounds trite and lame, but a good artist sees an album's sales as secondary to what really matters, which is how good of a piece of art it is. Sure, Adore sold considerably less than mellon collie, but it's probably he album that's closest to mine, as well as many others' hearts, something that MCIS II could never have done.


I hope u realise that this thread is not to bash adore, btw I thought adore only sold 1 million?? Cause 3 million is actually very good!(if it true) Anyway, I think adore was still good cause it came after mcis, adore is kinda the growt after mcis I think, and not some kinda of radical change like with the other eras...

Porcelina Ruby
08-23-2003, 04:57 PM
ow yeah, I think all of you are forgetting, that Billy was expecting it to be a huge hit like their 2 previous albums... at least that is what I can make out of beyond mellon collie, gracefull swans, adore documentary and full circle

D.
08-23-2003, 05:21 PM
Originally posted by Boycott Graceland
there isn't a cat-wedding in the booklet.

THRILLHO
08-23-2003, 06:18 PM
i think adore would've sold millions if it was the same album, only with a decent single.

In-Valid
08-23-2003, 07:11 PM
Originally posted by THRILLHO
i think adore would've sold millions if it was the same album, only with a decent single.

I agree somewhat. I agree that the singles were a poor reflection of Adore & did hurt sales but I think at that time in the music industry / scene SP & their ilk was no longer a priority for labels such as Virgin.

IMO 'Ava Adore' was a single that was probably 'pushed' by Virgin. All the press before the album release was 'techno this, techno that' which put out distorted expectations. 'Ava Adore' best fit this 'techno' sound plus it had enough commercial angst to sell to the masses. I think it backfired because the song was tired & not at all a good reflection of the maturity & beauty of the rest of the album.....the impression left for the fence sitters was therefore negative.

Perfect was another single that screamed 1979 ripoff (just like try, try, try for Machina).

Two very uninspired singles were partly the reason for Smashing Pumpkins MTV decline in success (among a few other factors in the state of music at that time which was completely out of their control).

Of all of the albums I personally thought SD had the best choices for singles (perhaps Mayonaise other than Rocket but whatever).

but what do I know...I thought Stand Inside Your Love would be a big hit.

Mariner
08-23-2003, 07:26 PM
Originally posted by ******
adore is a fucking amazing album in all aspects. Billy could have very easily done all he could to appeal to the masses by creating another incarnation of MCIS. It may have sold more, but what kind of emotional connection would it have made to the people that bought it, as opposed to the 3 million who bought adore.

I know this sounds trite and lame, but a good artist sees an album's sales as secondary to what really matters, which is how good of a piece of art it is. Sure, Adore sold considerably less than mellon collie, but it's probably he album that's closest to mine, as well as many others' hearts, something that MCIS II could never have done.

In my opinion, Adore was a severe artistic failure. I cannot listen to the album without constantly thinking about how much, much better the album would be if it had different instrumentation, arrangements, and tracklisting. That never happens with SD or MCIS. When I listen to Adore I hear unrealized potential for an absolutely astonishing record.

There are moments on Adore when the band came close (nearly all of To Sheila, short moments in Dusty and Pete, Nightmare, For Martha, and Blank Page), but the rest of the album is drowned out by the sound of what might have been.

alisonmonster
08-23-2003, 08:06 PM
Adore did badly because it wasen't densly layered rock like SD or excellently arranged like MCIS. After MCIS , it was paltry in comparison-a dark , slightly gothic , slightly electronic album. I like Adore , but i like it the least of everything else they've done- it simply isn't as musical as the other records.

I think songs like To Sheila and For Martha and Blank Page are beautiful songs. The album is just low key- and not enough rock.

James is Cool
08-23-2003, 09:04 PM
Originally posted by Mariner


In my opinion, Adore was a severe artistic failure. I cannot listen to the album without constantly thinking about how much, much better the album would be if it had different instrumentation, arrangements, and tracklisting. That never happens with SD or MCIS. When I listen to Adore I hear unrealized potential for an absolutely astonishing record.

There are moments on Adore when the band came close (nearly all of To Sheila, short moments in Dusty and Pete, Nightmare, For Martha, and Blank Page), but the rest of the album is drowned out by the sound of what might have been.

I agree with this for the most part. Don't get me wrong--I love Adore. It's a beautiful record, and probably one of my favorites that I own. I don't see it as a failure by any means. But it needed better instrumentation on some of the songs. I think if Jimmy had been around, Adore would have been absolutely astonishing like you said. The songwriting is there but the instruments aren't, and because of this, it doesn't quite reach its full potential.

eraserhead
08-23-2003, 09:06 PM
i love adore and don't care about its sales but i do think that let me give the world to you could have been the hit that would have made it sell a whole lot more.

The Gaddrow
08-23-2003, 10:38 PM
Originally posted by Porcelina Ruby
D'arcy??? It has been said a lot that the bass had been played by james.... Some, but not all. D'arcy was present during the bulk of the Machina sessions.

Ihaman
08-24-2003, 12:25 AM
i have never heard an album done live like adore, not only is it great as a cd, but every single show i have of it is pure genius.

dustdream
08-24-2003, 01:01 AM
aww. i was hoping for funny pictures.

DisarmBWBW
08-24-2003, 01:12 AM
adore is a very beautiful album, mellon collie had this epic magical feeling to it. the artwork sums up the comparisons well, the field with the tree, and the woman in the gown, with the dreary lighting, compared to mellon collie, which seemed like something out of alice in wonderland.

I can't really say adore was a failure, I mean, when I hit the right mood, it's the most amazing cd in the world. The same goes for Mellon Collie. Just because something didn't sell a lot of copies doesn't mean it's a failure...the masses don't decide quality music, they just decide easily acceptable catchy music.

Porcelina Ruby
08-24-2003, 04:17 AM
Originally posted by The Gaddrow
Some, but not all. D'arcy was present during the bulk of the Machina sessions.


really? now it's getting interesting, cause their were even topics that said she wasn't there at all....
Do u have any idea after how many months ofrecording she left?

zoodboog
08-24-2003, 05:23 AM
Originally posted by ******
adore failed?

Reyngel
08-24-2003, 06:48 AM
I think Adore was the best album Billy ever did. And it didn't fail commercially. Selling 3 million copies isn't even close to a failure. When you compare Mellon Collie to Adore, it's like comparing Bill Gates to someone who makes 7 figures. Just because the man who makes 7 figures isn't the richest man in the United States, it doesn't mean he's a failure. It's just that you're comparing him to a man who made a lot more money.

With that being said, the problem with Adore is that the world was beginning to change into an anti-alternative nation around the time of its release. The pop culture took over. And it's a shame, because Adore wasn't even on the same level as the other music that was released in 1998. It was on a completely different scale. While other albums were, well, albums... Adore was more like a huge eulogy. How can you compare apples and oranges like that? You can't. So in the end, while Adore was the most beautiful, most deep, and most ethereal album Billy and the Pumpkins ever did, the world just couldn't appreciate it. Pop sells, not eulogies. Billy knew that it was a huge risk, though. To Sheila is all about that. He sings to Sheila, who is a figure that embodies the people who supported him. And he waves off the bigness of Mellon Collie, and all of the screaming and almost immature blaming, and he evolves from a bleak, doomed rockstar, into a creature who just wants to mourn the loss of things in his life. And that's another problem Adore had. As intimate as the album is, it's not one that a lot of people can just play over and over again, any time, right off the bat.

The Gaddrow
08-24-2003, 07:05 AM
Originally posted by Porcelina Ruby
Do u have any idea after how many months ofrecording she left? No, but her bass playing is indeed present on Machina.

Porcelina Ruby
08-24-2003, 07:15 AM
it's funny, how a threat that was suppose to be funny only got 1 funny response:)
anyway: twilight fades(first line of the album) is that a referrence to the goodbye tothe mcis era? just wondering? and if it really sold 3 million it was a bludy hit!! I really think it only did 1 million...

Reyngel
08-24-2003, 07:30 AM
Originally posted by Porcelina Ruby
it's funny, how a threat that was suppose to be funny only got 1 funny response:)
anyway: twilight fades(first line of the album) is that a referrence to the goodbye tothe mcis era? just wondering? and if it really sold 3 million it was a bludy hit!! I really think it only did 1 million...

Yes, it would appear that that line is a reference to what I was talking about before. And I'm pretty sure it has sold 3 million copies as of late.

Nidhogg
08-24-2003, 08:35 PM
Originally posted by Porcelina Ruby
it's funny, how a threat that was suppose to be funny only got 1 funny response:)
anyway: twilight fades(first line of the album) is that a referrence to the goodbye tothe mcis era?

I really, really doubt it.

Ketch
08-25-2003, 07:38 PM
Please, will you stop criticising!

I don't think it even crossed Billy's mind to think of how many albums he would sell, when Adore was released. After the success of MCIS, he knew perfectly well that whatever the Pumpkins did, it would sell. The Pumpkins recorded an album that was close to what they felt at the time, not to what the music scene was. That's what makes it so good; it stood out from the rest, it was different.
Bands change, as does the music. Who cares if it "only" sold 3 million copies? I certainly don't and if someone wants to listen to music that everybody likes, well go and listen to Shaggy! He's a "proper" musician, he sold 10 million albums!

Since when did Pumpkin fans care about how many albums they have sold anyway? To tell you the truth, I prefer a band that not many people have heard of....

MstrGhost
08-25-2003, 09:23 PM
Originally posted by Porcelina Ruby
-cd wasn't red, no red version(sd was red and dawn to dusk was also red)


ahem, gish is red too in the uk 94', and... adore in 2lp has red labels with golden font, and the whole cover is red too because of her dress in colour.

Injektilo
08-26-2003, 12:08 AM
Originally posted by Ketch
Please, will you stop criticising!

I don't think it even crossed Billy's mind to think of how many albums he would sell, when Adore was released. After the success of MCIS, he knew perfectly well that whatever the Pumpkins did, it would sell. The Pumpkins recorded an album that was close to what they felt at the time, not to what the music scene was. That's what makes it so good; it stood out from the rest, it was different.
Bands change, as does the music. Who cares if it "only" sold 3 million copies? I certainly don't and if someone wants to listen to music that everybody likes, well go and listen to Shaggy! He's a "proper" musician, he sold 10 million albums!

Since when did Pumpkin fans care about how many albums they have sold anyway? To tell you the truth, I prefer a band that not many people have heard of....

. <---- The point of the thread

:) <---- You.



My understanding is that Adore sold 1 million in the US, and 3 million worldwide. Which would explain all the confusion here, though those numbers do seem odd.

Porcelina Ruby
08-26-2003, 05:34 AM
Originally posted by MstrGhost


ahem, gish is red too in the uk 94', and... adore in 2lp has red labels with golden font, and the whole cover is red too because of her dress in colour.

yes of course I know that, I have two version of it, but I know if I *******d people would say
a: gish was less succesfull then adore(but better then machina)
b: gish was originally pruple and they only made it red, so you would think it had something to do with the very succesfull sd

Porcelina Ruby
08-26-2003, 05:35 AM
Originally posted by Ketch
Please, will you stop criticising!

I don't think it even crossed Billy's mind to think of how many albums he would sell, when Adore was released. After the success of MCIS, he knew perfectly well that whatever the Pumpkins did, it would sell. The Pumpkins recorded an album that was close to what they felt at the time, not to what the music scene was. That's what makes it so good; it stood out from the rest, it was different.
Bands change, as does the music. Who cares if it "only" sold 3 million copies? I certainly don't and if someone wants to listen to music that everybody likes, well go and listen to Shaggy! He's a "proper" musician, he sold 10 million albums!

Since when did Pumpkin fans care about how many albums they have sold anyway? To tell you the truth, I prefer a band that not many people have heard of....

do you always repeat what other people say and we all already know?
bored from zwan forum and stumbled here?

liquid slide
08-26-2003, 05:44 AM
yeah like someone already said, it sold 1 million in the US and over 3 million worldwide, which i think was the pumpkins biggest overseas to US ratio for any of their albums. i remember billy saying (rolling stone?) that it was careless to just dismiss those european fans and album sales, because they obviously understood far better what he was trying to say/achieve.

BTW: did anyone know MCIS has been certified 9x platinum (for quite some time now) in the US? hopefully a diamond certification isn't too far away...

Porcelina Ruby
08-26-2003, 06:19 AM
hmm so that means mcis only sold 4 million overseas
btw are you surprised that adore sold so well im my beloved Europe? A lot of my friends have adore , and that's it:)
anyway, I really hope mcis gets the ten million mark, maybe then virgin will put effort in releasing pumpkin stuff...

Does anyone know how much earphoria sold? I know greatest hits went gold ...

Rider
08-26-2003, 06:30 AM
Wonders if in 10 years will still be having the stupid debates that we have had for the past 10 years.

Porcelina Ruby
08-26-2003, 06:31 AM
Originally posted by Rider
Wonders if in 10 years will still be having the stupid debates that we have had for the past 10 years.


and like I said, the really stupid is that I didn't wanted to debat at all, I just wanted to hear something funny...

Rider
08-26-2003, 06:48 AM
The simple fact that everyone always seems to miss is that every alternative band put albums that did'nt sell up to expectations around the same time. The reason Adore failed has little to with the album itself but more with the fact that the market changed.