View Full Version : the reason machina sucks


Ihaman
07-27-2003, 09:38 PM
the arising tour was better, that's why.

and he didnt incl<i></i>ude cash car star on it. i mean...what the fuck?

bonsor
07-27-2003, 10:10 PM
man, the arising tour was so promising.

pumpkinxyu
07-27-2003, 10:16 PM
Originally posted by Ihaman
the arising tour was better, that's why.

and he didnt incl<i></i>ude cash car star on it. i mean...what the fuck?

impressive logic. actually, the arising tour was great and is in no way a reason that machina sucks. machina is a masterpiece. as for cash car star, try machina ii and stop whining. and why would you post this over 3 years after machina was released like it's some kind of revelation?

Nate the Grate
07-27-2003, 10:33 PM
Originally posted by pumpkinxyu
machina is a masterpiece.

you're new here, aren't you?

Marlon Brando
07-27-2003, 10:41 PM
I agree that machina is a masterpiece.... the arising tour is great too but the songs still sound a little unfinished and more like high quality demos. lol.. thats the most intelligent thing someone has said so far on netphoria as to why they dont like machina, cuz arising tour was better lol.. that shows you peoples intelligence. Machina is a great album in so many ways.. sorry it didnt have enough electric guitars or solos or whatever it is you need to enjoy music... real music fans liked it just fine thank you.

Marlon Brando
07-27-2003, 10:43 PM
and besides that... the whole story was amazign, the way it brought in all the characters from the past albums and involved them into the band... what glass revealed to us... with are billy's messages too.. ive gone over each song so many times im not going to anymore unless someone needs to know specifacly what one of them is about .. i think you all need to read over and listen to machina again.. yuo really missed out.

killed radio star
07-27-2003, 10:43 PM
SHUT THE FACE

Reyngel
07-27-2003, 11:18 PM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
and besides that... the whole story was amazign, the way it brought in all the characters from the past albums and involved them into the band... what glass revealed to us... with are billy's messages too.. ive gone over each song so many times im not going to anymore unless someone needs to know specifacly what one of them is about .. i think you all need to read over and listen to machina again.. yuo really missed out.

Stand Inside Your Love had nothing to do with characters and story and whatever else bullshit that was in Machina. So I'd like to hear your interpretation of the song.

pumpkinxyu
07-27-2003, 11:22 PM
Originally posted by Nate the Grate


you're new here, aren't you?

unfortunately, no. but i haven't conformed to the "netphorians must hate machina" mentality. it's my favorite album, but i'm not going to put up a fuss like marlon, because frankly, i don't care whether or not netphoria likes machina. i just didn't think the first stupid post in this thread deserved to go by without at least one snide remark.

Eulogy
07-27-2003, 11:29 PM
the reason Machina is awesome:

The songs are awesome.

END OF DISCUSSION.

Reyngel
07-27-2003, 11:31 PM
Originally posted by pumpkinxyu


"netphorians must hate machina"

I don't think anyone here really "hates" Machina. And I certainly don't dislike the album because this message board does. It just simply isn't their best work.

Ihaman
07-27-2003, 11:44 PM
the arising tour hyped up machina to be something it wasn't.

Enzed
07-27-2003, 11:45 PM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
in all the characters from the past albums...

fucking "characters from the past albums" bollocks...

OOH OOH I KNOW WHO JUNE IS!:rolleyes:

Diamond Dream
07-28-2003, 01:06 AM
Machina 2 is more in the spirit of the Arising! tour... isn't it?

Ihaman
07-28-2003, 01:41 AM
Originally posted by Diamond Dream
Machina 2 is more in the spirit of the Arising! tour... isn't it?

yeah, it dosent have the "feel" though

Marlon Brando
07-28-2003, 01:47 AM
stand inside your love has nothing to do with machina? just cuz billy said he wrote it for his girlfreind... why would he put that song on if it had nothing to do with machina? why not put on cash car star or some other song he thought poeple would like more? because it IS about the fable... its about june and glass coming together.... he has talked about her in so many songs.. and 'for the last time' he tells her how much he needs her when they meet etc.. and its the first time and the last time.. as he says in the song.. it inspires glass and he is 'recast as child and mystic sage'...as the song says.

Marlon Brando
07-28-2003, 01:51 AM
the arising tour and machina are two different things though... of course it doesnt have the same feel.. which .. what you actually mean is.. there arnt enough guitars and songs that sound like the old pumpkins. cuz your lame. anyway, try listening to siamese dream songs from 92 or gish songs before 91.. and of course the feel is different. and plus i don tthink you can compare them live to them in studio... they are two different things...other then maybe led zeppelin.. no one had a live experience that was more exclusive to that perticular experience then pumpkins.. meaning they constantly changed songs so they would be different when you hear them live... as he said, he didnt wanna be a band that just goes on stage and plays the album. cuz he said everyone will have the album and know the songs so they are looking for somethign different from the live show.

Ihaman
07-28-2003, 02:16 AM
I NEVER SAID THEY SHOULD BE THE EXACT SAME!

the adore tour and adore had the same feel, and yet the songs were different.

Ihaman
07-28-2003, 02:20 AM
and why shouldnt billy play guitar solos? he's very good at it, are you saying he should be writing lame stories instead of good music?

if anything, i dont think that's a very bad fan.

Reyngel
07-28-2003, 02:58 AM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
because it IS about the fable... its about june and glass coming together....


UH OH, looks like you're not a true fan. If you were, then you'd know that Billy already said that Stand Inside Your Love has "nothing" to do with June, or Glass, or anything about the Machina story. It's the one stand-alone song on the album... simply written about love.

Sorry. You lose. :cool:

Ihaman
07-28-2003, 02:59 AM
Originally posted by Reyngel



UH OH, looks like you're not a true fan. If you were, then you'd know that Billy already said that Stand Inside Your Love has "nothing" to do with June, or Glass, or anything about the Machina story. It's the one stand-alone song on the album... simply written about love.

Sorry. You lose. :cool:

*high five*

mono
07-28-2003, 06:24 AM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
I agree that machina is a masterpiece....

WHO WOULD'VE GUESSED THAT YOU'D AGREE???!??!

DeviousJ
07-28-2003, 06:35 AM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
sorry it didnt have enough electric guitars

Ok, clearly Marlon has been listening to a different album than the rest of us. Let's find some possible alternatives he probably picked up by accident at the record store!
http://image.allmusic.com/00/amg/cov200/dre700/e755/e75580ijwee.jpg http://image.allmusic.com/00/amg/cov200/drc900/c921/c92105e0h7w.jpg
http://image.allmusic.com/00/amg/cov200/drd900/d949/d94994ukt69.jpg http://image.allmusic.com/00/amg/cov200/dre100/e127/e12732sx30i.jpg
http://image.allmusic.com/00/amg/cov200/drf500/f544/f54489k52jo.jpg http://image.allmusic.com/00/amg/cov200/drf600/f621/f62139cuku1.jpg

I'm sure these guys will be very interested to hear how they managed to chronicle the adventures of June so well in their music!

smashingjj
07-28-2003, 08:14 AM
Ugh. Machina sucks and you all know damn well why.

There are not enough guitars on it, damn it.

Desi
07-28-2003, 09:32 AM
Originally posted by Reyngel



UH OH, looks like you're not a true fan. If you were, then you'd know that Billy already said that Stand Inside Your Love has "nothing" to do with June, or Glass, or anything about the Machina story. It's the one stand-alone song on the album... simply written about love.

Sorry. You lose. :cool:

damn, Marlon. Even I knew that! You little dummy.

SmashingZeppelins
07-28-2003, 09:33 AM
Originally posted by Reyngel



UH OH, looks like you're not a true fan. If you were, then you'd know that Billy already said that Stand Inside Your Love has "nothing" to do with June, or Glass, or anything about the Machina story. It's the one stand-alone song on the album... simply written about love.

Sorry. You lose. :cool:

http://www.aseclub.net/phpBB2/images/smiles/op.gif

hupette gros
07-28-2003, 11:15 AM
Originally posted by Eulogy
the reason Machina is awesome:

The songs are awesome.

END OF DISCUSSION.

Word (IMO).

BTW, Ihaman, you're really dumb, really.

twilightfadez
07-28-2003, 12:02 PM
The Arising kicked ass...too bad i never caught any shows :*(

Travis Meekz
07-28-2003, 02:40 PM
The reason Machina sucked is because Billy had an initially good idea...then got nervouse about reviews, altered his idea, and in the end, adding a mixture of elitism, it failed. I'm sure knowing the band was soon to be over had an influence on
things.

hupette gros
07-28-2003, 03:23 PM
There's really something sad about some people around here. Why do you have that desperate need to convince others that Machina is good or is bad?
Get a life.

Another sad thing; when you try to evaluate something, don't compare it to anything else.

Once again, get a fucking life...it's never too late.

Travis Meekz
07-28-2003, 03:28 PM
Originally posted by hupette gros
There's really something sad about some people around here. Why do you have that desperate need to convince others that Machina is good or is bad?
Get a life.

Another sad thing; when you try to evaluate something, don't compare it to anything else.

Once again, get a fucking life...it's never too late.

thanks for coming

Nate the Grate
07-28-2003, 09:32 PM
I've never ever ever given one thought to the whole story crap. I listen to the songs...like I'd listen to any other song.

That said, Stand Inside Your Love is one of my favorite SP songs ever. it's just a simple love song. adding the "story" to it, that's just ridiculous.

wangcomputers
07-28-2003, 10:20 PM
Originally posted by Nate the Grate
I've never ever ever given one thought to the whole story crap. I listen to the songs...like I'd listen to any other song.

That said, Stand Inside Your Love is one of my favorite SP songs ever. it's just a simple love song. adding the "story" to it, that's just ridiculous.

i don't think it's so ridiculous.. It's not as if it's a "simple love song"..

From Guitar World:
"
GW: I think that's rather evident on several of the new songs. Whenever your lyrics seem on the verge of becoming maudlin, you jerk them in the other direction. For example, "Stand Inside Your Love" begins with some rather stock romantic proclamations. But by the song's end, the intent has become quite the opposite when you sing, "I'll wrap my wire around your heart and your mind/you're mine forever now."

BC:[laughs] I would say that's a very astute interpretation...

----

GW: What's the album about?
BC: The simple answer is "life." To expand upon that, I can say, if life were a room, this album would represent me walking in and checking the tempterature. I'm kind of like a doctor. [laughs]
A more complex answer is that I'm looking at relationships and asking if they're based on true impressions or reflections of ourselves: Am I seeing my girlfriend, my bandmates or God as they are, or am I seeing them how I need to see them in order to survive?......
GW: so machina is dealing with issues of perception and reality. It's very easy to connect some of the lyrics on the album with recent events in your life and the life of the pumpkins. How literal is the connection?
BC: With a lot of those lyrics, i'm playing tricks with preconceptions people have of me. And I realize that, and I'm glad to do it."

--------------------


the rest of the interview goes deeper into it, but i'm not going to type the rest :p
But I think SIYL is in the same vein as the rest of the album, not just a love song to yelena.

Marlon Brando
07-29-2003, 12:04 AM
FINNALLY, someone smart. wangcomputers has it right. if stand inside your love had nothing to do with the machina story, why the line "recast as child and mystic sage"? which is exactly what happened to glass after he met June.

The album has tons of meanings and the story is important to the band and interesting in general. i really dont know how any pumpkins fan wouldnt enjoy it. most of you say stand inside your love is your favorite machina song and then in the same breath you use the word 'simple'. so is everythign you want simple? and that song is only simple cuz you see it that way.

thank you wangcomputers.. i appreciate the response.

Tessellation
07-29-2003, 12:13 AM
ironically,Machina was the first SP album I bought, but it's also the only one I've sold (along with the GH).

"age of innocence" is the only song I enjoy off of it, but I wish it had been produced better.

Marlon Brando
07-29-2003, 12:14 AM
lol the perceptions that billy plays with... people saying he is ego maniacal and self righteous etc... people saying the band is washed up and irrelavant etc.. are in the machina story except its glass and teh machines of god.. billy plays with the perceptions and blows them up even bigger then real life.. but its not to be taken literally, its just part of the machina story.. so that people like the media and netphorians will say 'see, billy is an idiot and self righeous and the band is dead'.. but people like pumpkins fans who understand the story will interpret them whithin the context of the story. billy said so himself in many interviews that thats what he was trying to do.


but for you people its all about, well i dont like the production on this song or .. this song shouldnt have been on there or... that solo isnt very good.. or i dont like his voice on that song... you are dealing with surface things that have nothing to do with the heart of the album. you people are lost.. and you missed the whole point, and you arnt fans.

Marlon Brando
07-29-2003, 12:45 AM
Originally posted by wangcomputers


i don't think it's so ridiculous.. It's not as if it's a "simple love song"..

From Guitar World:
"
GW: I think that's rather evident on several of the new songs. Whenever your lyrics seem on the verge of becoming maudlin, you jerk them in the other direction. For example, "Stand Inside Your Love" begins with some rather stock remantic proclamations. But by the song's end, the intent has become quite the opposite when you sing, "I'll wrap my wire around your heart and your mind/you're mine forever now."

BC:[laughs] I would say that's a very astute interpretation...

----


EXACTLY.
GW: What's the album about?
BC: The simple answer is "life." To expand upon that, I can say, if life were a room, this album would represent me walking in and checking the tempterature. I'm kind of like a doctor. [laughs]
A more complex answer is that I'm looking at relationships and asking if they're based on true impressions or reflections of ourselves: Am I seeing my girlfriend, my bandmates or God as they are, or am I seeing them how I need to see them in order to survive?......
GW: so machina is dealing with issues of perception and reality. It's very easy to connect some of the lyrics on the album with recent events in your life and the life of the pumpkins. How literal is the connection?
BC: With a lot of those lyrics, i'm playing tricks with preconceptions people have of me. And I realize that, and I'm glad to do it."

--------------------


the rest of the interview goes deeper into it, but i'm not going to type the rest :p
But I think SIYL is in the same vein as the rest of the album, not just a love song to yelena.

neopryn
07-29-2003, 01:00 AM
It sounds like you need to read a good book, Marlon. If all you care about music is the lyrical content, you can find much better literature in books. If, on the other hand, you enjoyed music more, like most of Netphoria, then you'd like earlier Pumpkins.

Marlon Brando
07-29-2003, 01:04 AM
actually the music on machina is excellent and shows a lot of growth by the band... and machina isnt a book its a music album... but ACCOPANIED with pictures and words... if it hadnt have been, it would have been completley different music.. you cant seperate the story from the songs.. its interlocked on machina. i know its too much for most of you kiddies but oh well.

what you meant to say is your a simple dork like most netphorians and cant handle anything that requires any thinking.

Reyngel
07-29-2003, 01:41 AM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
FINNALLY, someone smart. wangcomputers has it right. if stand inside your love had nothing to do with the machina story, why the line "recast as child and mystic sage"? which is exactly what happened to glass after he met June.

The album has tons of meanings and the story is important to the band and interesting in general. i really dont know how any pumpkins fan wouldnt enjoy it. most of you say stand inside your love is your favorite machina song and then in the same breath you use the word 'simple'. so is everythign you want simple? and that song is only simple cuz you see it that way.

thank you wangcomputers.. i appreciate the response.

Uh, no where in that quote did Billy ever declare the meaning of Stand Inside Your Love. Yet, in a bunch of interviews, and even on VH1 Storytellers, I believe, he explains that the song had NOTHING to do with the Machina story.

As for in the same breath "simple," wtf are you talking about? Who's said that? I love complex songs. And I also think SIYL is the best song on Machina.

neopryn
07-29-2003, 01:43 AM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
what you meant to say is your a simple dork like most netphorians and cant handle anything that requires any thinking.
actually, that's right. thanks.

Marlon Brando
07-29-2003, 02:07 AM
so billy is a mystic sage in real life? and yelena inspired him to become one? wow.. call some scientists and have him tested.. this is amazing news! well thats if stand inside your love has nothing to do with glass and june..

fucking idiot.

Reyngel
07-29-2003, 03:05 AM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
so billy is a mystic sage in real life? and yelena inspired him to become one? wow.. call some scientists and have him tested.. this is amazing news! well thats if stand inside your love has nothing to do with glass and june..

fucking idiot.

lol. I love how you know more about what Stand Inside Your Love means than Billy Corgan. :D

Marlon Brando
07-29-2003, 03:07 AM
lol.. im sure billy was thinking.. lets write several chapters.. pay some guy to paint some plates for the albums, put out some lithographs, have a contest to try and solve the story.. but what the hell.. not every song on the album has to do with the story. lol fucking retard :)

and you never answered my direct question.. why would he make references to June and Glass in stand inside your love if it had nothing to do with the story? netphorians are BEYOND stupid.

Reyngel
07-29-2003, 03:23 AM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
lol.. im sure billy was thinking.. lets write several chapters.. pay some guy to paint some plates for the albums, put out some lithographs, have a contest to try and solve the story.. but what the hell.. not every song on the album has to do with the story. lol fucking retard :)

and you never answered my direct question.. why would he make references to June and Glass in stand inside your love if it had nothing to do with the story? netphorians are BEYOND stupid.

You're getting sloppy with your trolling. :) And it's obvious that you're just being stubborn because you're embarrassed about thinking you knew so much about Machina, and yet, you're just flat out wrong. How does the Machina essay contest, the album plates, the lithos, etc, have ANYTHING to do with what Stand Inside Your Love means? lol.

Billy already explained the song, man. I'm sorry you're not a true fan, and didn't get to hear or read his explanation, but don't take it out on me. :)

Oh, and to answer your gay ass question... um, show me where Billy sings the names "Glass" or "June" in Stand Inside Your Love, and then I'll get back to you.

Heh.

Marlon Brando
07-29-2003, 03:25 AM
he said he is 'recast as child and mystic sage'.. in the stories he refers to glass as a sage... and in other songs has glass to a child, with a theme of innocence running through several machina 1, 2 and the machina era judos 0 songs. he says 'a child is who i was and a child is who i'll die'.. he is reborn .. as child and mystic sage. clear enough fuck head?

Reyngel
07-29-2003, 03:33 AM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
he said he is 'recast as child and mystic sage'.. in the stories he refers to glass as a sage... and in other songs has glass to a child, with a theme of innocence running through several machina 1, 2 and the machina era judos 0 songs. he says 'a child is who i was and a child is who i'll die'.. he is reborn .. as child and mystic sage. clear enough fuck head?

Why are you cussing at me now? Are you really getting that desperate as a troll? If you want to discuss this, then let's discuss it.

The thing about your "evidence" is that you're not explicating the lyrics correctly. You don't know what the lyrics mean. I can only say this about Stand Inside Your Love, though, because it's one of the few songs that Billy has explained numerous times.

Basically, Stand Inside Your Love was just a song about love. Billy has declared this many times. He has specifically said that it has nothing to do with the Machina story. You used the Machina essay contest as evidence? Uh, go back to Billy's responses to the essays. When he went on to explain the Machina story, he said that Stand Inside Your Love had NOTHING to do with Glass, June, or the story/play that filtered through the album. It was just a nice, simple love song that he wanted to share with Yelena and his fans.

So, obviously, you just don't know what the lyrics mean. Which also begs the question: do you even know what the lyrics to ANY of Machina mean? I mean, if you're completely wrong about one song, and yet so sure of yourself, then maybe you're the same way about the whole album. And thus, maybe your love for Machina is based on a story that isn't even what Billy intended. lol.

Marlon Brando
07-29-2003, 03:40 AM
I have seen storytellers and read just as many machina interviews as you and billy's point was that stand inside your love is also relavant to his personal life.. its not that he for some strange reason decided to put one song on the album that has nothing to do with the story.. first of all, the coming together of glass and june is important to pumpkins history and stand inside your love is that moment.. its reflected in the plate 'desire holds the moment still'... and in the stand inside your love music video... where glass rescues june... its an interpretation of the real story of glass and june where he meets her on the street and takes her from her prison of drugs and whoring... its not about rescueing yelena yemchuk from... some hellish life as a renowned photographer and overall seemingly happy existance. billy said yelena is very mature.. unlike june who was lost... and like i said, glass says he is recast as child and mystic sage which is what he becomes in the machina story after he meets june... whta else do you need to know? he starts the song with 'for the last time' meaning she is the last girl in the story, the ones the other songs of lonliness and unfullfilled desires have led to.. and ends it with 'for the first time'..meaning now that he has found her he is reborn.. but of course the story ends later on with him realizing that he cant rest all his feelings on the idea that another person can always be there to make him, glass, happy.

recast as child and mystic sage.

what arnt you getting? are you brain dead?

Ihaman
07-29-2003, 03:42 AM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
I have seen storytellers

yes, but do you have the bootleg of the whole concert?

i do.

Reyngel
07-29-2003, 03:45 AM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
I have seen storytellers and read just as many machina interviews as you and billy's point was that stand inside your love is also relavant to his personal life.. its not that he for some strange reason decided to put one song on the album that has nothing to do with the story.. first of all, the coming together of glass and june is important to pumpkins history and stand inside your love is that moment.. its reflected in the plate 'desire holds the moment still'... and in the stand inside your love music video... where glass rescues june... its an interpretation of the real story of glass and june where he meets her on the street and takes her from her prison of drugs and whoring... its not about rescueing yelena yemchuk from... some hellish life as a renowned photographer and overall seemingly happy existance. billy said yelena is very mature.. unlike june who was lost... and like i said, glass says he is recast as child and mystic sage which is what he becomes in the machina story after he meets june... whta else do you need to know? he starts the song with 'for the last time' meaning she is the last girl in the story, the ones the other songs of lonliness and unfullfilled desires have led to.. and ends it with 'for the first time'..meaning now that he has found her he is reborn.. but of course the story ends later on with him realizing that he cant rest all his feelings on the idea that another person can always be there to make him, glass, happy.

Okay, fine. Here is a part of the transcript from Storytellers, when Billy begins to explain Stand Inside Your Love:

"Every once in a while, a song comes and it comes so fast that you can't even almost remember how it happened. And you almost feel kind of guilty because you almost feel like you don't own the song. Of course you still take credit but um...[chuckles] Uh, this song Stand Inside Your Love, um, I had written the music. The song was a little different um, it sort of was more new wave if I can show you really quickly, it was more like um [plays short, new wave version] and I envisioned it as a new wave song. And um, when the band first came back together to record the Machina album, within about maybe the second or third rehearsal that we had, I sort of threw this up as an idea I had. We tried to play it the new wave way and it didn't work and suddenly it just mutated into what I would call "Classic Smashing Pumpkins" in the sense that it sounds like it could come from any album. And um, we immediately arranged the song top to bottom so the song that you hear on the album is basically the same musical arrangement, but I didn't really have a melody and I didn't have any words. And I went home that day thinking "Well, I should really should try to write some words for this song, I really like it." I woke up the next morning and I was reading a book and um, all I had for this song was the line "Who wouldn't stand inside your love," which I can't say I really knew what that even meant at that particular moment. And um, it's the strangest feeling because all of sudden it's like a faucet opens up in my head and suddenly I can understand the whole song, I see it all. So, the lyrics to the song were --and i'm not joking when i say this-- were literally written in ten minutes and I have the sheet of paper that I wrote the lyrics on. And um, there's, not one word is different, not one word was ever changed. It all just came out in a stream of conciousness. To talk about what the song is about, it's probably one of the only rare...it's probably one of the only love songs I've ever written. I dedicate it to my friend and partner Yelena. [applause] Um, she doesn't like me very much right now so --it's true. [chuckles] No, but what I-- the reason I say that she doesn't really like me right now, is when I sing this song, it reminds me of how precious love is and how important love is in all of our lives. And even though I wrote this song for a person, I would say to anyone who likes this song, that I also write it for you in the sense that I'm trying to express that that feeling, that, that, when you really try to explain to somebody how much you really care about them. So this is um...maybe she'll forgive me. "

How can it be any clearer than that? He wrote the fuckin song in TEN MINUTES. Read the part where he stars, "And even though I wrote this song for a person," to the end. The song is SPECIFICALLY ABOUT YELENA, and his love for Yelena. I'm not gonna go and search for all the times where Billy explained the song, but you can do that if you want to. In fact, I invite you to search for his response to the Machina essay contest. He literally said that it had nothing to do with Glass and June, and was just a love song for Yelena. And I think he also said something about how since he knew it was their last album, he wanted to put a dedication song on it for her, cause she had been there with him through all the shit of the Mellon Collie, Adore, and Arising eras. And that's all it is.

How can you be so persistent with arguing with what the WRITER OF THE SONG said? lol

Reyngel
07-29-2003, 03:52 AM
What's the matter? Are you suddenly silent because you were just owned by Billy? ;)

Marlon Brando
07-29-2003, 03:53 AM
"I dedicate it to my friend and partner Yelena. [applause] Um, she doesn't like me very much right now so --it's true. [chuckles] No, but what I-- the reason I say that she doesn't really like me right now, is when I sing this song, it reminds me of how precious love is and how important love is in all of our lives. And even though I wrote this song for a person, I would say to anyone who likes this song, that I also write it for you in the sense that I'm trying to express that that feeling, that, that, when you really try to explain to somebody how much you really care about them. So this is um...maybe she'll forgive me."

he said he DEDICATED the song to her.. not that it's ABOUT HER SPECIFICALY.. as he goes on the explain, its really a more universal song about certain emotions and .. he said its maybe the only love song he's ever written, and glass and june coming together is teh only moment of true love ever in the pumpkins music.... and the line about him being recast as child and mystic sage is a direct reference to Glass... obviously if they were already working on the album when he wrote the lyrics, he had the machina story in mind while writing it.

i mean they played I am One often during their tour, same with Cherub Rock because those songs can fit into what Glass and The Machines of God had to say as well... Stand Inside Your Love fits perfectly into the moment of glass and june coming together, he wrote the lyrics after he started the album and after he knew it was gonna be a concept album, and the line about glass being a mystic sage... thats why its a big part of the machina story.

he says he wrote that song for a person.. well its not like he has nothing to do with glass.. if he hadnt have met yelena.. he might not have wrote machina, it would have been a different album.. yelena is HIS june, in his opinion... but it could be anyone.. the song in no way says anything about yelena personally so.. and thats done for obvios reasons..cuz its about June.. and June is a metaphor.. its about more then his girlfreind..its about our June too

duh!

Reyngel
07-29-2003, 03:59 AM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
"I dedicate it to my friend and partner Yelena. [applause] Um, she doesn't like me very much right now so --it's true. [chuckles] No, but what I-- the reason I say that she doesn't really like me right now, is when I sing this song, it reminds me of how precious love is and how important love is in all of our lives. And even though I wrote this song for a person, I would say to anyone who likes this song, that I also write it for you in the sense that I'm trying to express that that feeling, that, that, when you really try to explain to somebody how much you really care about them. So this is um...maybe she'll forgive me."

he said he DEDICATED the song to her.. not that it's ABOUT HER SPECIFICALY.. as he goes on the explain, its really a more universal song about certain emotions and .. he said its maybe the only love song he's ever written, and glass and june coming together is teh only moment of true love ever in the pumpkins music.... and the line about him being recast as child and mystic sage is a direct reference to Glass... obviously if they were already working on the album when he wrote the lyrics, he had the machina story in mind while writing it.

i mean they played I am One often during their tour, same with Cherub Rock because those songs can fit into what Glass and The Machines of God had to say as well... Stand Inside Your Love fits perfectly into the moment of glass and june coming together, he wrote the lyrics after he started the album and after he knew it was gonna be a concept album, and the line about glass being a mystic sage... thats why its a big part of the machina story.

duh!

lol... oh come ON, man! Give it up already. Did you fuckin read that thing? Where the hell does Billy say that the line about "being recast as child and mystic sage is a direct reference to Glass?" He said he dedicated the song to her... and he also said he WROTE IT FOR HER. Not for Machina, or its story, or whatever else you keep thinking it means. He specifically said, "And even though I wrote this song for a person." Dude, don't make me go and search for when he LITERALLY says that it is the one STAND ALONE SONG on the album, because it had nothing to do with the story...

You're right, it's about a universal feeling... about love. But that's where it stops man.

Also, lol, Billy also said that Siamese Dream was NEVER tie-in to the whole Machina story, lol.

Marlon Brando
07-29-2003, 04:02 AM
lol siamese dream isnt a tie in to machina.. all the albums are.. they are about how billy or zero went from songs about suicide and death and pain to songs about hope and happiness... thats the whole point of machina....

he says he wrote that song for a person.. well its not like he has nothing to do with glass.. if he hadnt have met yelena.. he might not have wrote machina, it would have been a different album.. yelena is HIS june, in his opinion... but it could be anyone.. the song in no way says anything about yelena personally so.. and thats done for obvios reasons..cuz its about June.. and June is a metaphor.. its about more then his girlfreind..its about our June too

so if glass being recast as child and mystic sage has nothing to do with machina.. does that mean billy can tell the future now or he speaks directly to god? you make no sense.

Reyngel
07-29-2003, 04:07 AM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
lol siamese dream isnt a tie in to machina.. all the albums are.. they are about how billy or zero went from songs about suicide and death and pain to songs about hope and happiness... thats the whole point of machina....

he says he wrote that song for a person.. well its not like he has nothing to do with glass.. if he hadnt have met yelena.. he might not have wrote machina, it would have been a different album.. yelena is HIS june, in his opinion... but it could be anyone.. the song in no way says anything about yelena personally so.. and thats done for obvios reasons..cuz its about June.. and June is a metaphor.. its about more then his girlfreind..its about our June too

so if glass being recast as child and mystic sage has nothing to do with machina.. does that mean billy can tell the future now or he speaks directly to god? you make no sense.

Uh oh, looks like you slipped... again. :)

If all the albums have to do with the story, and if Yelena is HIS June, then why does he mention June in Mellon Collie? He wrote those lyrics in Mellon Collie BEFORE they were going out, lol.

Also, even the most BEGINNING fan of Smashing Pumpkins has probably caught on by now that GLASS IS NOT BILLY CORGAN, but rather, an interpretation of what people thought about him. Thus, if Gish, Siamese Dream, MCIS and Adore were all about SPECIFICALLY BILLY'S LIFE, then how can Machina be a continuation of it? lol. Billy has repeatedly said that Machina was something COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. That it was an album that addressed his public image, rather than his REAL LIFE, or who he REALLY WAS. hehe.

You're wrong. Sorry. :)

Reyngel
07-29-2003, 04:09 AM
Oh, and I have to stress again how stupid it is to claim that all the albums are all a tie-in to the Machina story. I just find it funny to think that Billy was thinking about the Machina story way back during Gish, lol.

Marlon Brando
07-29-2003, 04:13 AM
its hard having this discussion with someone who has no concept of what the pumpkins are about.

but anyway...
i said yelena is HIS june.. not JUNE is his yelena... he has always talking about June.. in rhincerous, mayonaise etc... June is the ideal mate he was looking for but never found....stand inside your love is him as glass, finnnally finding june... and im sure meeting yelena helped inspire that song and that feelings.

so if all glass is , is what people think of billy corgain? how do you explain age of innocence or with every light? sounds about love and god and rebirth and letting go of teh past for something better? ive never heard of ANYONE referring to billy corgan in that way... peoples perceptions are a part of what inspired the lyrics on the album... but i dont think anyone really wants to see a band like the pumpkins succeed so i dont think they would be happy with the ending cuz it certainly isnt their perception.

and glass is billy.. except glass is an exagerated version of both him and his perceptions for the sake of the fable and the messages billy wanted to get across from it.

Reyngel
07-29-2003, 04:14 AM
Oh, and, what the hell are you arguing for? I ALREADY SAID that I like the fucking song. I think it's the best one on the album, and one of the best songs they ever did. Why are you fighting so hard to make it way, way more than it really is? Can you not accept that Billy simply just wrote an innocent love song about his girlfriend?

Marlon Brando
07-29-2003, 04:15 AM
are you an idiot? of course billy wasnt thinking about machina while making the other albums.. but he was thinking about the other albums while making machina.. like talking about june.. who is in the older albums.. talking about daphne who is from adore.. talking about zero from mellon collie.. all those names are in the chapters... or in wound''.... last night i turned around and thought i saw the world ending, inside the strangest dream of life unloved and cities burning..'

i am one goes..'your cities to burn, your cities to burn.. try to look for something in your cities to burn, you'll burn'

Reyngel
07-29-2003, 04:16 AM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
peoples perceptions are a part of what inspired the lyrics on the album

I agree. But um, lol... do you? Dozens of people have said this to you already, and you cussed them out.

Basically, all you're doing is contradicting yourself by saying that people's perceptions are a key to the album's energy, and yet, you're fucking dictating to everyone that what YOU think the album means is the ONLY way to think.

Heh.

Marlon Brando
07-29-2003, 04:18 AM
well your perception is that the album is stupid and fake.. the only good song has nothing to do with the story and you only like it cuz it sounds like 'classic pumpkins'.. and that the pumpkins ripped you off and put out something terrible.. im telling you the album is very meaningful and important to pumpkins fans and you are liar for saying you are one.

are you an idiot? of course billy wasnt thinking about machina while making the other albums.. but he was thinking about the other albums while making machina.. like talking about june.. who is in the older albums.. talking about daphne who is from adore.. talking about zero from mellon collie.. all those names are in the chapters... or in wound''.... last night i turned around and thought i saw the world ending, inside the strangest dream of life unloved and cities burning..'

i am one goes..'your cities to burn, your cities to burn.. try to look for something in your cities to burn, you'll burn'

Reyngel
07-29-2003, 04:21 AM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
are you an idiot? of course billy wasnt thinking about machina while making the other albums.. but he was thinking about the other albums while making machina.. like talking about june.. who is in the older albums.. talking about daphne who is from adore.. talking about zero from mellon collie.. all those names are in the chapters... or in wound''.... last night i turned around and thought i saw the world ending, inside the strangest dream of life unloved and cities burning..'

i am one goes..'your cities to burn, your cities to burn.. try to look for something in your cities to burn, you'll burn'

Look... what the hell is your point? I KNOW what Machina is about.

If you want to continue arguing about Stand Inside Your Love, go right ahead. But I'm officially done. Cause to me... if Billy says a song is about one thing, then that's what I believe. Not some troll on Netphoria, heh.

If you want to continue arguing about what Machina is about... go right ahead. I don't know why you are, but go for it.

Have a nice day. :)

Marlon Brando
07-29-2003, 04:22 AM
i argue because nethporians should be made to feel ashamed of themsevles for not caring about the pumpkins best album.

Reyngel
07-29-2003, 04:27 AM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
i argue because nethporians should be made to feel ashamed of themsevles for not caring about the pumpkins best album.

And you should feel ashamed for being a Pumpkins fan, which you clearly are, and yet, spending your life on the Internet, trolling a message board. I wish you could see how pathetic it is, because I think you could really contribute a lot of positive feedback to Pumpkins discussions... if it weren't for the fact that you consistently enjoy cussing people out because they feel Machina isn't their favorite album. Until you realize that, you're just a bitch. But let us know when you're ready to use your interest of Pumpkins music to begin a DECENT conversation, and I'll be there.

:)

Marlon Brando
07-29-2003, 04:28 AM
people who feel what pumpkins are really about love machina the most.

Thoughtless
07-29-2003, 04:28 AM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
i argue because nethporians should be made to feel ashamed of themsevles for not caring about the pumpkins best album.

serious question:

why do you care? if we don't care about the best pumpkins album, it's our problem, not yours. :rolleyes:

Reyngel
07-29-2003, 04:30 AM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
people who feel what pumpkins are really about love machina the most.

That's funny, I've always thought that the Pumpkins were about a whole hell of a lot more than just Machina. It's a shame you're so narrow-minded. And it's also a shame that you still persist in badmouthing Pumpkins fans for their choice of favorite songs/albums.

Marlon Brando
07-29-2003, 04:32 AM
Machina destroys the pain and hurt and desires of all the other albums in favor of something different, and thats the energy of Machina.

Reyngel
07-29-2003, 04:33 AM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
Machina destroys the pain and hurt and desires of all the other albums in favor of something different, and thats the energy of Machina.

And your point is...?

Marlon Brando
07-29-2003, 04:34 AM
anyone whose fav pumpkins album isn't machina.. cant be a pumpkins fan.

Thoughtless
07-29-2003, 04:36 AM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
anyone whose fav pumpkins album isn't machina.. cant be a pumpkins fan.

any band that requires you to choose the right favorite album to be a fan can't have actual fans.

Marlon Brando
07-29-2003, 04:38 AM
yes it can.. the pumpkins music demands more from their fans.

Marlon Brando
07-29-2003, 04:39 AM
you either love machina and its your favorite or you dont get it. and if you dont get it your not a fan.

Reyngel
07-29-2003, 04:39 AM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
anyone whose fav pumpkins album isn't machina.. cant be a pumpkins fan.

Okay look, man. If your goal is to convince us that Machina is the best Pumpkins album, then you're going about it the wrong way. See, I think you know this, and that you're just trolling because you're a pathetic bitch who enjoys nerding it up by agitating members on a message board. But let's just say I give you the benefit of a doubt for just one second, and remind you that criticizing and badmouthing people is NOT the way to convince us. In fact, is just reassures us that Machina is CRAP, because if a prick like you likes it, then it can't be all that good.

Thoughtless
07-29-2003, 04:40 AM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
you either love machina and its your favorite or you dont get it. and if you dont get it your not a fan.

you sadly don't know anything about the concept of being a fan.

Ihaman
07-29-2003, 04:41 AM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
yes it can.. the pumpkins music demands more from their fans.

no, we're allowed to make our own decisions, billy corgan didnt release machina with the intention of it being "what ever single pumpkin fan has been dying to hear" you have a very very very very bad idea of what the pumpkins were originally founded for.
most of us have been fans long before machina was ever a concept, we've retained our tastes long before glass and june were even characters in a seemingly overall scheme. just because they released a new album dosent mean our tastes have changed, what if the pumpkins released a new album for some reason with a newer concept that outshadowed the machina one? what then? would you have to choose? or would the new one automatically be the "favorite or your not a true fan"

or are you joking?

Marlon Brando
07-29-2003, 04:41 AM
the first time i ever mentioned one word about machina even being half decent, i was told i was a stupid fucking idiot. at that point, i realized what netphorians are about, and that they should be afforded no respect.

and besides that,

you either love machina and its your favorite or you dont get it. and if you dont get it your not a fan.

Marlon Brando
07-29-2003, 04:43 AM
every pumpkins album has been better then the one before it.. if they ever released another it would only be becuase its better, they wouldnt do so otherwise. thats not that pumpkins.

Reyngel
07-29-2003, 04:44 AM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
the first time i ever mentioned one word about machina even being half decent, i was told i was a stupid fucking idiot. at that point, i realized what netphorians are about, and that they should be afforded no respect.


lol, OHHHH, I get it now. You really are just an insecure nerd! My bad. I thought maybe it was just an act. :) Tell me... if some Italian guy on the street walked by and said to you that Machina was shit, and that you were a fuckin idiot because you liked it, would you then "know what Italians are all about," and hate them all?

Heh.

Ihaman
07-29-2003, 04:45 AM
and who's opinion is that?

since when do concept albums automatically retain "best" status, i'd like to see a rule somewhere in writing.

Marlon Brando
07-29-2003, 04:45 AM
no cuz italians dont claim to all be pumpkins fans.

netphorians do.

Marlon Brando
07-29-2003, 04:46 AM
its not the best album cuz its a concept album. its the best album cuz its the best album.

Ihaman
07-29-2003, 04:47 AM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
its not the best album cuz its a concept album. its the best album cuz its the best album.

again, i'd like to know who's opinion that is?

is my opinion wrong?

Reyngel
07-29-2003, 04:47 AM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
no cuz italians dont claim to all be pumpkins fans.

netphorians do.

You are misinformed. There are lots of Netphorians who love Machina. And there are lots who hate it. And there are lots of people who are just so-so with it.

Too bad you're too insecure and narrow-minded to realize that.

Marlon Brando
07-29-2003, 04:49 AM
billy said it was their best album...he said their older ones were immature..and that they have always tried to make albums better then the one before it or else they wouldnt even try making albums. anyone who gets the story cant help but love it the most and love how the songs sound and the emotion in the voice and the lyrics.

Thoughtless
07-29-2003, 04:49 AM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
billy said it was their best album...he said their older ones were immature..and that they have always tried to make albums better then the one before it or else they wouldnt even try making albums. anyone who gets the story cant help but love it the most and love how the songs sound and the emotion in the voice and the lyrics.

get off billy's nuts and make some decisions for yourself

Ihaman
07-29-2003, 04:50 AM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
billy said it was their best album...he said their older ones were immature..and that they have always tried to make albums better then the one before it or else they wouldnt even try making albums. anyone who gets the story cant help but love it the most and love how the songs sound and the emotion in the voice and the lyrics.

but what if i like the voice and the songs and the emotion and the lyrics of another album?

does that make my opinion wrong? i mean, billy is the same person he was 10 years ago.

Marlon Brando
07-29-2003, 04:50 AM
there are lots of netphorians who love machina and its their fav album? other then myself.. i think ive maybe found one other person in the last 3 years here that feels the same way. way to go netphoria, way to be stupid and ignorent.

Ihaman
07-29-2003, 04:51 AM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
there are lots of netphorians who love machina and its their fav album? other then myself.. i think ive maybe found one other person in the last 3 years here that feels the same way. way to go netphoria, way to be stupid and ignorent.

if anything, i think it's you that's being ignorant for not respecting our opinions.

Marlon Brando
07-29-2003, 04:51 AM
no billy is NOT the same person he was ten years ago... thats why machina is so different... thats why the songs in machina arnt about suicide and girls that will never come and lost childhoods...

Ihaman
07-29-2003, 04:52 AM
i dont remember ever hearing a song abut suicide in gish

Reyngel
07-29-2003, 04:52 AM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
billy said it was their best album...he said their older ones were immature..and that they have always tried to make albums better then the one before it or else they wouldnt even try making albums. anyone who gets the story cant help but love it the most and love how the songs sound and the emotion in the voice and the lyrics.

I highly doubt that Billy thinks that Adore was "immature." :rolleyes: If anything, Adore was a huge maturity wake-up call.

Reyngel
07-29-2003, 04:53 AM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
no billy is NOT the same person he was ten years ago... thats why machina is so different... thats why the songs in machina arnt about suicide and girls that will never come and lost childhoods...

lol, didn't you just say like fifty-million posts ago that Machina WAS about the same things from other albums? hahaha.

Marlon Brando
07-29-2003, 04:53 AM
billy said on much music in 2000 that when he listens to siamese dream or gish he has no idea who that person is or what led him to play that music.

Reyngel
07-29-2003, 04:54 AM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
billy said on much music in 2000 that when he listens to siamese dream or gish he has no idea who that person is or what led him to play that music.

Uh, so?

Ihaman
07-29-2003, 04:55 AM
but he still appreciates it, just look at gish month.
i have a hard time believe you're a true fan for not appreciating the music he made. you're using a storyline as a copout to appreciate what a band ultimately prides itself over, its music.

Marlon Brando
07-29-2003, 04:55 AM
its not ABOUT the same things.. but it brings them into the picture.. character wise to end the story and find otu what happens to zero or june etc.. and lyric wise like wound.. billy is saying he doesnt even understand the person he was in gish.

Thoughtless
07-29-2003, 04:55 AM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
billy said on much music in 2000 that when he listens to siamese dream or gish he has no idea who that person is or what led him to play that music.

Originally posted by Thoughtless
get off billy's nuts and make some decisions for yourself

Marlon Brando
07-29-2003, 04:57 AM
look if like machina as like 11 out of 10.. then i like the others as 9 out of 10 or 10 out of 10... its not like all their other albums suddenly became junk cuz machina was so awesome.. if anything it made the other albums seem even MORE important cuz of how billy chose to use them in machina.. but im just saying, machina is the most important album to pumpkins fans for reasons such as those.

Reyngel
07-29-2003, 04:58 AM
If Billy, during the Arising and Machina era, wasn't about the concepts from previous albums, then why the fuck did they play I Am One, La Dolly Vita, Pug, Geek USA, Soma, Mayonaise, Ava Adore, etc, live from 1999-2000? And why oh why did Billy END HIS CAREER... a statement that you'd think should be about who you REALLY ARE, and who you're REALLY ABOUT... with SILVERFUCK? lol. All those songs were from previous albums, man.

Ihaman
07-29-2003, 05:00 AM
no, machina didnt bring together anything, it had no nostalgic value to me whatsoever. all of us have been die-hard fans probably more than you ever will. you simply do not understand and you're looking for excuses around the truth...stop it. you make zero to no sense whatsoever in your reasoning.

i honestly think everything you say is jokes.

Reyngel
07-29-2003, 05:00 AM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
but im just saying,

No, see... you're NOT "just saying." You're dictating. And, as you know, it pisses people off.

Ihaman
07-29-2003, 05:01 AM
<3 reyngel :love:

Marlon Brando
07-29-2003, 05:04 AM
well the arising tour isnt the machina story, it was a chance to play new songs before recording them so as to make them the best they could be... and also to give fans one last glimpse at some of the old songs like geek u.s.a. or la dolly vita or pug.. after adore which was almost entirely new songs. keep in mind that the arising tour was the last time they ever played geek u.s.a. or la dolly vita etc.. they played i am one after that cuz its relavent to the machian story the way they modified it for that tour... but the arising tour was more laid back and not about the machina story the way the sacred and profane tour was. even though the machina songs they played were still sending out the same messages.

i mean yeah they ended with silverfuck.. a version tons of netphorians have said they hated by the way, typical... i hear your winter, i hear your rain, i failed your summer ways and i feel no pain.. what about that isnt consistant with the machina story or glass or the vibe at that time? have you read the lyrics to the final silverfuck? they are great, and they have tons to do with machina, and almost nothing to do with the feelings on siamese dream... other then be careful cuz those you love may betray you and that he loves his fans. but those are just as much if not more a part of machina then siamese dream.

Reyngel
07-29-2003, 05:07 AM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
well the arising tour isnt the machina story, it was a chance to play new songs before recording them so as to make them the best they could be...

According to Billy, the Arising tour was a celebration of the return to Jimmy. Uh, that's kinda why they called it the "Arising!" tour. Duhhhhhh.

Marlon Brando
07-29-2003, 05:09 AM
well thats part of it.. the band returnign together for the first time in years. but also playing more rock based songs whereas adore tour was more folk rock... with the occasional heavy metal song. so in a way it was return to form, thus, arising, but part of that was playing new songs to test them out and get a better feel for them before putting them on cd forever.

Reyngel
07-29-2003, 05:12 AM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
well thats part of it.. the band returnign together for the first time in years. but also playing more rock based songs whereas machina was more folk rock... with the occasional heavy metal song. so in a way it was return to form, thus, arising, but part of that was playing new songs to test them out and get a better feel for them before putting them on cd forever.

Well obviously, hehe. Basically, though, you just agreed with me, so I don't get your point.

Marlon Brando
07-29-2003, 05:12 AM
its funny how you people tell me i believe whatever billy says and that im stupid... yet when its convienent for you, you will quote billy into infinity. amazing.

Marlon Brando
07-29-2003, 05:13 AM
yes i agree with you, but you told im wrong and your write, i was saying you are partly right BUt there is more.

Reyngel
07-29-2003, 05:14 AM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
its funny how you people tell me i believe whatever billy says and that im stupid... yet when its convienent for you, you will quote billy into infinity. amazing.

No one ever said that by you believing what Billy says, you are thus stupid. The comment of "get off Billy's nuts," I believe, was directed at you because you're so fucking OBSESSED with thinking that you have to appease Billy, and that loving Machina is the way to do it. If Machina was a cock, you'd have it in your fuckin windpipe by now.

Marlon Brando
07-29-2003, 05:16 AM
if billy ever came out and said machina was stupid and fake and he doesnt believe in it.. i wouldnt ever listen to ANY pumpkins cd ever again...

but if billy came out and said that he respects his work on all his albums but that siamese dream or mellon collie he says was their best work.. machina would STILL be my favorite album. billy said machina was their best work... but if he ever changed his mind thats fine with me...

whats not fine is how almost every nethphorian doesnt even RESPECT machina AT ALL

Thoughtless
07-29-2003, 05:19 AM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
its funny how you people tell me i believe whatever billy says and that im stupid... yet when its convienent for you, you will quote billy into infinity. amazing.

it's different, we quoted billy's reason for the arising tour, you let billy decide if you like the music or not.

Thoughtless
07-29-2003, 05:20 AM
Originally posted by Reyngel


No one ever said that by you believing what Billy says, you are thus stupid. The comment of "get off Billy's nuts," I believe, was directed at you because you're so fucking OBSESSED with thinking that you have to appease Billy, and that loving Machina is the way to do it. If Machina was a cock, you'd have it in your fuckin windpipe by now.

Marlon Brando
07-29-2003, 05:20 AM
if billy ever came out and said machina was stupid and fake and he doesnt believe in it.. i wouldnt ever listen to ANY pumpkins cd ever again...

but if billy came out and said that he respects his work on all his albums but that siamese dream or mellon collie he says was their best work.. machina would STILL be my favorite album. billy said machina was their best work... but if he ever changed his mind thats fine with me...

whats not fine is how almost every nethphorian doesnt even RESPECT machina AT ALL

Reyngel
07-29-2003, 05:21 AM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
if billy ever came out and said machina was stupid and fake and he doesnt believe in it.. i wouldnt ever listen to ANY pumpkins cd ever again...

but if billy came out and said that he respects his work on all his albums but that siamese dream or mellon collie he says was their best work.. machina would STILL be my favorite album. billy said machina was their best work... but if he ever changed his mind thats fine with me...

whats not fine is how almost every nethphorian doesnt even RESPECT machina AT ALL


There are so many false statements in that, I don't even know where to begin.

If Billy rated his albums on a scale, and Adore was on the top, and Machina was on the bottom, then you'd still think Machina was their best album? Um.... BULLSHIT.

Almost every Netphorian doesn't even respect Machina? I love how you've mainly been arguing with ME tonight, and yet, I have never said that I didn't respect Machina. All I ever said was that I think the Pumpkins's best work was not in Machina, but rather with their other albums.

And as for the "If Billy ever said that Machina was fake" comment... well, lol. You just proved out point. You're not loving Machina because it's good music. You're loving it because BILLY said he likes it. Thus, you are a bitch.

Thoughtless
07-29-2003, 05:22 AM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
if billy ever came out and said machina was stupid and fake and he doesnt believe in it.. i wouldnt ever listen to ANY pumpkins cd ever again...

but if billy came out and said that he respects his work on all his albums but that siamese dream or mellon collie he says was their best work.. machina would STILL be my favorite album.

there's such blatant proof right there; you don't give a shit about the music.

Reyngel
07-29-2003, 05:24 AM
Exactly. I'm gonna start using that quote from now on.

Originally posted by Marlon Brando
if billy ever came out and said machina was stupid and fake and he doesnt believe in it.. i wouldnt ever listen to ANY pumpkins cd ever again...


Originally posted by Marlon Brando
if billy ever came out and said machina was stupid and fake and he doesnt believe in it.. i wouldnt ever listen to ANY pumpkins cd ever again...


Originally posted by Marlon Brando
if billy ever came out and said machina was stupid and fake and he doesnt believe in it.. i wouldnt ever listen to ANY pumpkins cd ever again...

Marlon Brando
07-29-2003, 05:24 AM
like i and every pumpkins fan and the pumpkins have said.. the music isnt the most important thing to the band cuz they arnt the best musicians or singers ... thats important is the messages and feeligns.. and if they one day said they didnt believe in what they did, then they lied to me.

if all i cared about was what somethign sounds like i would just listen to jimmy page all day or the voice of tori amos... i love them but for pumpkins they have always said the songs arise from the feelings, not the other way around.

Reyngel
07-29-2003, 05:25 AM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
if billy ever came out and said machina was stupid and fake and he doesnt believe in it.. i wouldnt ever listen to ANY pumpkins cd ever again...


Sorry. You lose.

Marlon Brando
07-29-2003, 05:28 AM
the number one thing important in the pumpkins has nothing to do with pedals or synthesizers or voice lessons... its honesty. and the earlier albums had their honest shrouded with old wounds and pain and disillusionment. with machina... through glass, billy gives us all the truths he has learned in 33 years of triumphs and losses and loves and deaths. machina is the most honest, so its the best.

Reyngel
07-29-2003, 05:29 AM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
if billy ever came out and said machina was stupid and fake and he doesnt believe in it.. i wouldnt ever listen to ANY pumpkins cd ever again...


Sorry. You're not a true fan. Move on.

Thoughtless
07-29-2003, 05:29 AM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
the number one thing important in the pumpkins has nothing to do with pedals or synthesizers or voice lessons... its honesty. and the earlier albums had their honest shrouded with old wounds and pain and disillusionment. with machina... through glass, billy gives us all the truths he has learned in 33 years of triumphs and losses and loves and deaths. machina is the most honest, so its the best.

you should really think about learning the concept of music.

Marlon Brando
07-29-2003, 05:30 AM
the number one thing important in the pumpkins has nothing to do with pedals or synthesizers or voice lessons... its honesty. and the earlier albums had their honest shrouded with old wounds and pain and disillusionment. with machina... through glass, billy gives us all the truths he has learned in 33 years of triumphs and losses and loves and deaths. machina is the most honest, so its the best.

if billy ever came out and said he lied to us on purpose.. i wouldnt respect him anymore and wouldnt ever listen to them again.

Marlon Brando
07-29-2003, 05:30 AM
if you dont understand that, you dont understand the band.

Thoughtless
07-29-2003, 05:30 AM
i have to admit, arguing with marlo is pretty fun

Marlon Brando
07-29-2003, 05:32 AM
its sad you dont know the first thing about your favorite band.

Reyngel
07-29-2003, 05:33 AM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
the number one thing important in the pumpkins has nothing to do with pedals or synthesizers or voice lessons... its honesty. and the earlier albums had their honest shrouded with old wounds and pain and disillusionment. with machina... through glass, billy gives us all the truths he has learned in 33 years of triumphs and losses and loves and deaths. machina is the most honest, so its the best.

if billy ever came out and said he lied to us on purpose.. i wouldnt respect him anymore and wouldnt ever listen to them again.

Yeah, you said that already. Pretty pathetic. The only bond between you and the music the Pumpkins played is the comments that Billy has about it. In reality, you're not a "true Pumpkins fan," but rather, you're a "true Billy Corgan's cock fan."

Thoughtless
07-29-2003, 05:34 AM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
its sad you dont know the first thing about your favorite band.

it's sad that you can't appreciate music. music itself has nothing to do with honesty or respect.

Marlon Brando
07-29-2003, 05:34 AM
Originally posted by Thoughtless


it's sad that you can't appreciate music. music itself has nothing to do with honesty or respect.

spoken like a true netphorian.

Reyngel
07-29-2003, 05:35 AM
Originally posted by Thoughtless
i have to admit, arguing with marlo is pretty fun

Yeah. The fun of not being able to sleep. Heh.

Reyngel
07-29-2003, 05:37 AM
marlon, you've revealed this much to us:

-You think Machina is the best album, and that anyone who doesn't like it, like you, isn't a true fan.

-If Billy said that he didn't like the album, then you wouldn't like it, either.

Basically, you're a pussy.

Marlon Brando
07-29-2003, 05:37 AM
Originally posted by Thoughtless
music itself has nothing to do with honesty or respect.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


spoken like a true netphorian.

Marlon Brando
07-29-2003, 05:38 AM
i havnt and wont ever like ANY band who comes out and says they dont like an album they put out. i dont like bands who dont have integrity or who knowing put out somethign they know is junk.

Reyngel
07-29-2003, 05:39 AM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
Originally posted by Thoughtless
music itself has nothing to do with honesty or respect.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


spoken like a true netphorian.

Well, he's right. Music is about meaning something to each individual. It's not about following the leader, and worrying about what other people say or think.

Reyngel
07-29-2003, 05:40 AM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
i havnt and wont ever like ANY band who comes out and says they dont like an album they put out. i dont like bands who dont have integrity or who knowing put out somethign they know is junk.

And onceeeee again, you've slipped up. :)

You just got done explaining to us that Billy said he felt Siamese Dream and Gish were immature, etc. How can you like the Pumpkins if the band says they think their early work is immature? hehe.

Marlon Brando
07-29-2003, 05:41 AM
if netphorians are such individuals.. why do they all hate machina? why do they all only like old pumpkins? why do they all hate zwan? what a cooincidence!

i havnt and wont ever like ANY band who comes out and says they dont like an album they put out. i dont like bands who dont have integrity or who knowing put out somethign they know is junk.

Reyngel
07-29-2003, 05:42 AM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
if netphorians are such individuals.. why do they all hate machina? why do they all only like old pumpkins? why do they all hate zwan? what a cooincidence!

i havnt and wont ever like ANY band who comes out and says they dont like an album they put out. i dont like bands who dont have integrity or who knowing put out somethign they know is junk.

As I said, there are tons of Netphorians who love Machina, and who love Zwan. Your arguments are becoming worse and worse. :)

Marlon Brando
07-29-2003, 05:43 AM
billy said they were immature but he also said he still respects them very much as they were very honest AT THE TIME. he didnt say they were crappy or they werent honest or that he doesnt repect them.

you know if you think before you speak you will realize im not 'slipping up' :)

Reyngel
07-29-2003, 05:44 AM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
billy said they were immature but he also said he still respects them very much as they were very honest AT THE TIME. he didnt say they were crappy or they werent honest or that he doesnt repect them.

you know if you think before you speak you will realize im not 'slipping up' :)

No, cause here is my point:

If Billy thus respects the other albums very much because they were very honest, etc, then WHY IS IT SO WRONG FOR ME TO FEEL THAT AN ALBUM OTHER THAN MACHINA IS THEIR BEST WORK?

:)

Marlon Brando
07-29-2003, 05:44 AM
lol hey fuckhead, take a look around you... have you not scene all the posts recently? about how no one cares about zwan, machina is a joke.. etc. try looking through the message boards and try and find me all those zwan lovers here lol.. you wont find any

Reyngel
07-29-2003, 05:46 AM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
lol hey fuckhead, take a look around you... have you not scene all the posts recently? about how no one cares about zwan, machina is a joke.. etc. try looking through the message boards and try and find me all those zwan lovers here lol.. you wont find any

Okay, I'll make you a deal. If I can find 5 people on Netphoria who expressed that they love Zwan, and that they loved Machina, will you then shut the fuck up and leave?

Marlon Brando
07-29-2003, 05:47 AM
becuase machina speaks from a place of the most experience and most clearity and answers all the questions billy asks from earlier albums.. will june ever come? what will happen she does? is life worth living? am i chosen by god to suffer? etc. machina answers it all.

Reyngel
07-29-2003, 05:47 AM
You didn't answer either of my two questions. But fuck the other one... just answer the one about how if I can show you people on here... NETPHORIANS... who love Zwan and Machina... will you fuckin leave?

Marlon Brando
07-29-2003, 05:48 AM
alright find 5 netphorians who love machina and love zwan and can give me reasons why.. having nothign to do with guitar sounds or pedals or anything.. the reasons have to be about the concepts and about the meanings in the songs. and if yhou can do taht i will leave forever.

Marlon Brando
07-29-2003, 05:49 AM
and they have to express a detailed, realistic understanding of the songs.

Reyngel
07-29-2003, 05:51 AM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
alright find 5 netphorians who love machina and love zwan and can give me reasons why.. having nothign to do with guitar sounds or pedals or anything.. the reasons have to be about the concepts and about the meanings in the songs. and if yhou can do taht i will leave forever.

Okay.

killer_tomato
07-29-2003, 05:54 AM
TO BE CONTINUED!

DeviousJ
07-29-2003, 07:18 AM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
billy said on much music in 2000 that when he listens to siamese dream or gish he has no idea who that person is or what led him to play that music.

Yet Siamese Dream is still an integral part of the Machina Mystery? Fascinating, do go on.

Marlon Brando
07-29-2003, 07:22 AM
THATS the integral part fuckhead... that glass doesnt understand the crazy suicidle freak from siamese dream. and that it is neccesary to avoid becoming that and that he has learned that to be that kind of person is silly and immature.

DeviousJ
07-29-2003, 07:30 AM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
THATS the integral part fuckhead... that glass doesnt understand the crazy suicidle freak from siamese dream. and that it is neccesary to avoid becoming that and that he has learned that to be that kind of person is silly and immature.

You do realize, I hope, that you could interpret Machina as being about fucking elephants from Mars and do as good a job (if not better) of arguing it as you're doing here. So Siamese Dream was a part of Machina insomuch as 'Glass' doesn't understand how he was that person? Wow, that must have been some incredible insight for Billy to have been suicidal and writing SD, while at the same time planning ahead for another album where he wouldn't understand the person he was at that moment.

Marlon Brando
07-29-2003, 07:33 AM
so whenever you reflect back on something in your life that you dont understand why you did it or cant relate to the person you were.. it means you were planning on one day looking back and not understanding who you were? of course not fuckhead.. like i said.. billy diddnt have machina in mind while writing siamese dream .. but he did have the other albums in mind while writing machina.. thats two different things asshole.

DeviousJ
07-29-2003, 07:44 AM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
so whenever you reflect back on something in your life that you dont understand why you did it or cant relate to the person you were.. it means you were planning on one day looking back and not understanding who you were? of course not fuckhead.. like i said.. billy diddnt have machina in mind while writing siamese dream .. but he did have the other albums in mind while writing machina.. thats two different things asshole.

Oh I see, so you're saying Machina is basically about Billy's life, and 'June' is just a name he used to refer to a woman he had/was looking for in his life. Welcome to the non-stupid side of the fence

Marlon Brando
07-29-2003, 07:47 AM
"Oh I see, so you're saying Machina is basically about Billy's life, and 'June' is just a name he used to refer to a woman he had/was looking for in his life."

exactly. thats what ive been saying all along and its quite evident if you here all the pumpkins albums and then machina too

mono
07-29-2003, 07:51 AM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
thats what ive been saying all along and its quite evident if you here all the pumpkins albums and then machina too

Isn't Machina 2 a pumpkins album?

DeviousJ
07-29-2003, 07:52 AM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
"Oh I see, so you're saying Machina is basically about Billy's life, and 'June' is just a name he used to refer to a woman he had/was looking for in his life."

exactly. thats what ive been saying all along and its quite evident if you here all the pumpkins albums and then machina too

Ok, so let me get this straight:

Machina is about Billy's life and experiences.
Glass=Billy
June=currently Yelena
SIYL is about 'Glass and June'
ergo, it's a love song written by Billy, for Yelena.

So what we have here, is an album written by Billy about things in his life (like... all the other albums). What's the problem here?

Marlon Brando
07-29-2003, 07:53 AM
well its billy x10... glass is more ambitious then billy..glass can communicate with god or thinks he can and billy never said that about himself... glass becomes too self rightoues.. june dies.. but the starting point is rooted in real life and in the earlier albums.

DeviousJ
07-29-2003, 08:00 AM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
well its billy x10... glass is more ambitious then billy..glass can communicate with god or thinks he can and billy never said that about himself... glass becomes too self rightoues.. june dies.. but the starting point is rooted in real life and in the earlier albums.

Yes, because at heart it's an album written by Billy about stuff in his life, which is why it's possible to have songs with a simple, heartfelt concept (like SIYL) without having to bring stupid stories into it. If he wrote this song, which was about trying to express his love for someone, and he managed to say what he wanted in the lyrics, why would he then incorporate it into some half-assed narrative? That would be like writing a love letter to someone, then drawing superheroes all over the page with big swords and writing 'j00 r0X0r my b0x0rz, j00n' at the end of it.

Marlon Brando
07-29-2003, 08:03 AM
well he wrote stand inside your love AFTER he started the concept album..and he says in the song, he's recast as child and mystic sage... which is what happens to glass in the story after he meets june so.. and machina is half assed? ok, send me a copy of your concept album or a story you wrote so i can compare..im sure yours is much better.

DeviousJ
07-29-2003, 08:10 AM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
well he wrote stand inside your love AFTER he started the concept album..and he says in the song, he's recast as child and mystic sage... which is what happens to glass in the story after he meets june so.. and machina is half assed? ok, send me a copy of your concept album or a story you wrote so i can compare..im sure yours is much better.

Can you really not grasp the concept of metaphors? 'Recast as child and mystic sage' - that's basically the sum of two contradictions, on one hand you have the innocence and naivety of a child and on the other a better understanding of things and some kind of inner peace. In other words, Billy's in lurve and it doesn't mean he has magically become a kid a la the movie <i>Big</i> or even <i>Vice Versa</i>, and also some kind of ancient wise man in a remote village wit mysterious powers. What would you rather he say, 'I feel like a kid again and I kinda understand the world better, somehow'? Not a great lyric. But then again, if you believe TTEOR then Billy is somehow able to both breathe underwater, AND live under glass! Unless he means Glass, and that was the guy he lived below in his apartment complex. Hmm, the Mystery continues

DeviousJ
07-29-2003, 08:11 AM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
which is what happens to glass in the story after he meets june so..

Also, it's fairly easy to make up some story later based on lyrics you've already written, yes? I could write one about moonmen too - remember, Billy already told June he was going to the moon.

Marlon Brando
07-29-2003, 08:12 AM
hmm, you a fucking idiot.

if you cant see how stand inside your love relates to the glass and the machines of god fable...your life is a complete waste of time.

DeviousJ
07-29-2003, 08:20 AM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
hmm, you a fucking idiot.

if you cant see how stand inside your love relates to the glass and the machines of god fable...your life is a complete waste of time.

Yes, my life will remain unfulfilled I guess. I just got a mental picture of your Machina-themed room, it wasn't pretty. Nice 'no you suck' argument though, it's good to see reasoned and structured responses to other people's points. It shows you have a solid grasp of your own ideas and opinions, and that you're not just spouting bullshit.

Marlon Brando
07-29-2003, 08:21 AM
if you cant understand machina after reading all the chapters, the graphic, the plates, the lithographs, billys explanation, the lyrics and hearing the music, as well as the live shows and my 5 pages in this thread of explanation.. you are pathetic.

Oil Painted Eyes
07-29-2003, 09:17 AM
Oh shoot I didn't miss the "we hate Machina" era of Netphoria, did I?

Marlon Brando
07-29-2003, 09:19 AM
yeah, right now your in the machina-haters-know-nothing-about-the-band-era... you fucking idiot. get the fuck off this board and go listen to creed or something asshole.

NegativeSleep
07-29-2003, 09:50 AM
what I don't understand is why you're so angry at everyone and insist on randomly throwing in insults throughout your arguments.

I remember back during the heydey of the machina mystery a guy used to post on here called spankarine (i think he went on to mod the o-board later on). in any case, he would post fascinating interpretations of the lithographs and tie them into the whole machina concept. I'll admit that I wasn't (nor am I still) very knowledgeable about the details of the story, mainly because my academic life was a mess at the time and I was drowned in work, but I nonetheless still managed to skim over some of his posts and found it really interesting. incidentally, his posts sparked a lot of meaningful discussion on the boards and you would've seen a lot more people than you might expect drawn into the story and debating its intricacies.

in any case, although you bring up some interesting points (and likewise some very foolish ones), your confrontational approach and insistence to generalize everything is probably responsible for the lack of enthusiastic response in your favour. frankly, a lot of people who might agree with you would be embarrased to side with you because of your grandiose statements you try to pass off as absolute, and your generally asshole-ish attitude. spankarine's posts were a pleasure to read, and he offered some interesting insights into the machina story, but even he respected people's opinions and the fact that people can enjoy an album based solely on its musical merits, and not how it fits within a greater scheme of things. and for those who do go beyond the music and the lyrics and delve into the complex narrative, then I admire them for their enthusiasm and persistence - but that does not necessarily make them 'truer' fans. Billy crafted his music and his albums so that everyone can get something different from the music/lyrics that can relate to their feelings or their lives. I doubt he draws a distinction between the person who interprets a song as a pure and innocent love song, and someone who understands its link in an epic fable (at least in so much as designating one fan better than the other) so long as the song means _something_ to them and they can appreciate it.

or something...

smashingjj
07-29-2003, 09:52 AM
jesus christ 5 pages...not going to read

SmashingZeppelins
07-29-2003, 10:03 AM
You're really missing out, it's a laugh riot.:rolleyes:

Devious J is funny as hell though, as usual.:D

meow
07-29-2003, 11:31 AM
Originally posted by SmashingZeppelins

Devious J is funny as hell though, as usual.:D

EYE LYKE TEH MUSAK OV TEH CHMACHING PUNKINS!

Billy Corgan.
07-29-2003, 11:47 AM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
if billy ever came out and said machina was stupid and fake and he doesnt believe in it.. i wouldnt ever listen to ANY pumpkins cd ever again...


machina is stupid and fake and i don't believe in it.

now go slit your wrists at once, cockgoblin.

xoxoxoxo
-BC

mono
07-29-2003, 01:06 PM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
becuase machina speaks from a place of the most experience and most clearity and answers all the questions billy asks from earlier albums.. will june ever come? what will happen she does? is life worth living? am i chosen by god to suffer? etc. machina answers it all.

hmm, you a fucking idiot.

mono
07-29-2003, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
alright find 5 netphorians who love machina and love zwan and can give me reasons why.. having nothign to do with guitar sounds or pedals or anything.. the reasons have to be about the concepts and about the meanings in the songs. and if yhou can do taht i will leave forever.

hmm, you a fucking idiot.

mono
07-29-2003, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
well he wrote stand inside your love AFTER he started the concept album..and he says in the song, he's recast as child and mystic sage... which is what happens to glass in the story after he meets june so.. and machina is half assed? ok, send me a copy of your concept album or a story you wrote so i can compare..im sure yours is much better.

hmm, you a fucking idiot.

mono
07-29-2003, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
yeah, right now your in the machina-haters-know-nothing-about-the-band-era... you fucking idiot. get the fuck off this board and go listen to creed or something asshole.

hmm, you a fucking idiot.

mono
07-29-2003, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by Marlon Brando
hmm, you a fucking idiot.

if you cant see how stand inside your love relates to the glass and the machines of god fable...your life is a complete waste of time.

hmm, you a fucking idiot.

Ihaman
07-29-2003, 01:44 PM
zwan has nothing to do with the smashing pumpkins

im actually a fan of a few of the djali zwan shoes....but when the album came out and i heard it i sort of backed away.

all of us (ALL OF US) do completely understand the 'machina' story, a good number of us think it's absolutely laughable, not just netphorians, if you go to blamo you'd find the same thing, if you went to alt.music.smash-pumpkins, you'd find the same thing, hell...im even willing to bet the o-board had the same thing. you're using your 'knowledge' of this story to justify that you're basically the best fan in the world....which you arent. everybody knows jeroen is.

Tessellation
07-29-2003, 03:59 PM
Originally posted by Reyngel


lol. I love how you know more about what Stand Inside Your Love means than Billy Corgan. :D

:D

Reyngel
07-29-2003, 05:28 PM
Originally posted by Billy Corgan.


machine is stupid and fake and i don't believe in it.

now go slit your wrists at once, cockgoblin.

xoxoxoxo
-BC

lol