Billy said last year in a magazine at the time when the greatiest hits CD came out how he respects the older pumpkins albums like Siamese Dream but that ultimatley they are immature. He says musicaly and lyricaly Machina is their best album. He said every album improved on the last one because if it didn't there would be no point in making it cuz that was the pumpkins attitude. I've said that all along.. that I enjoy their older albums but that Machina is the most interesting and most important. Oh well, even if you people think im stupid, at least the lead singer of the band this board is based on agrees with me.. but I guesse to you people that wouldn't mean anything.

I mean ignore the fact that the identity of all the characters including june is finnally revealed... forget the fact that our questions regarding zero's emptiness and destruction were finnally answered and along with it our fate and future seen. forget the fact that we were part of the album and created the story while the final tour was happening... billy's feelings from us feeding into the performances and then into the final stories. I guesse none of that means anything to anyone but me and the lead singer of the band you claim to love. oh well.

*puts in Machina* *hits play* *track one starts* Shit there goes that argument.

Ignore the fact that it caused kids to triangulate the location of the final shows and sit around guessing website passwords all day. Forget the fact that it was egotistical tripe, and Billy is wrong. Forget all concepts of capitalization and punctuation. I guess none of that means anything to you. Oh well.

I think you should stick to reading the back of cereal boxes and watching teletubies... I think you would get more out of that then the pumpkins.

egotistical? wrong? so billys songs about how he loves us and needs us and we are a part of each other is egotistical? ok

Originally posted by Marlon Brando
at least the lead singer of the band this board is based on agrees with me.

That's just awkward, awkward sentence structure my friend. Why didn’t you just say “Billy Corgan agrees with me.” Also you’re implying you have intimate knowledge of what Billy said and thinks but in reality you just read an article.

MACHINA isn’t the piece of crap that its made out to be on this boards at times. Far from it, sometimes it fucking sings beautifully (I of the Morning & Stand Inside Your love are good examples). But frankly, it doesn’t nearly rock as hard as SD does. Lyrically come close to being as truthful as SD or MCIS stuff is. A concept album by a 90s rock band is a ballsy thing to do, the problem was it was done in such a half-assed way that it just distances you from the concept and then you throw your hands up in frustration and say “well, this sucks ass.”

the song untitled says.. 'let me be what i need...your enough for me'. that egotistical? ok

done if a half assed way??? as opposed to who?? billy wore costumes every night... he put out stories as the character, he put out messages as the character... the performances reflected the tone of the time and teh story even on the old songs they drew upon.. they put on one long cd and another double album.. they did a final world tour where they went everywhere that had FULL on production.. THAT was half assed?

then you complain that machina doesnt rock as hard.. refer to my FIRST message about it being a more mature record.

Originally posted by Marlon Brando
so billys songs about how he loves us and needs us and we are a part of each other is egotistical? ok

When he expresses that as "send your bored/your restless/the feedback-scarred/devotionless /you're all a part of me now /and if i fall / you're all a part of me now /in the sun" then yes, it's egotistical as hell.

Originally posted by Marlon Brando
billy wore costumes every night...
Sort of ruins your "more mature" claim right there. Unless crossdressing is now the mature thing to do.

if you had a CLUE about the story.. thats why he goes crazy at the end.. he becomes too self rightous and alienates his followers and then is left alone.. thats one of the major themes of the story. yes i agree that was egotistical but thats the point.. that not him.. that glass in the story singing those words.

holy shit my voice just imploded

yeah i guesse all fashion is immature or all costume,, i guesse you dont like theatre or movies at all then cuz tis too immature cuz people have to dress up.. and he was dressed more like a catholic preacher then a girl.. he described it as cosmic preacher

if you had a CLUE about the story.. thats why he goes crazy at the end.. he becomes too self rightous and alienates his followers and then is left alone.. thats one of the major themes of the story. yes i agree that was egotistical but thats the point.. that not him.. that glass in the story singing those words.

Originally posted by Marlon Brando
if you had a CLUE about the story.. thats why he goes crazy at the end.. he becomes too self rightous and alienates his followers and then is left alone.. thats one of the major themes of the story. yes i agree that was egotistical but thats the point.. that not him.. that glass in the story singing those words.

Oh, he wasn't egotistical, his alterego was! It all makes sense now! To the Z-Board!!!

Pumpkins fans have again proven their intelligence. Thank you!

Are you forgetting the involvement of the listener in the music? Identifying with the music is extremely important, for me at least.

well i identified with all the previous records.. and thats WHY I identified with machina..cuz teh feelings and questions of all the other albums were addressed in Machina. thats why i liked it so much cuz i felt it a lot, its very personal for pumpkins fans

Someone should re-write the story of Glass and all that stuff using normal language so that we could actually read and understand it. I kind of like some of the ideas but it was done in such a wacky and pieced together way that its hard to take it all in. The final revealing story thing made more sense but still...

I nominate Marlon Brando, he seems to know what its all aboot.

maybe im more mature then you people.. i mean i am 21 so.. who knows.

you didnt understand it cuz it was done a 'wacky' way? but yet you understand all the other pumpkin lyrics adn albums? that makes machina different... nothing to me... i really dont get you

Billy agrees with you? Uh, shut the fuck up. You mean you agree with Billy. In which case, who gives a shit? Damn man, I guess Billy will be knocking on your door any day now to personally let you know that you are his greatest fan. Congratulations.

While I think it is true that:

Gish < Siamese Dream < Mellon Collie < Adore,

I think it is also true that:

Gish < Machina < Siamese Dream < Mellon Collie < Adore

Billy's entire Pumpkins career was BASED ON directly relating to listeners, and vice-versa. ESPECIALLY Siamese Dream, Mellon Collie and Adore. Most fans enjoyed the music because they could relate to many of the lyrics. But with Machina, how the fuck was anyone supposed to relate to lyrics about a worldwide rock and roll superstar? Basically, the only songs on Machina that someone could try to assume a relation with are Stand Inside Your Love, Try Try Try, Wound, and maybe With Every Light. All the rest of them are about specifically BILLY'S life as a rockstar, and the perils and stuggles of specific rock and roll issues. Unless you're the frontman of a multi-million dollar group, then Machina is just some revelation that Billy decided to end his career with, and nothing more. It's not timeless like the other albums, and thus, it was mildly successful when it first came out, and then TOTALLY BOMBED.

Originally posted by Marlon Brando
i mean i am 21 so.. who knows.

Someone archive this.

so because it was a story about something you arnt, a rock star, you cant relate to it? so i guesse you didnt like the godfather cuz your not italian or you didnt like clockwork orange cuz your not a violent scottish teenager or cant like pumpkins unless your family hurt you and you are emotionally scarred. ok i understand. so i guesse the issues in machina about obscured reflections of yourself in your partner or our relationship with god or not becoming too self rightious and not relying on other people to make you happy cuz you will end up betrayed in the end.. i guesse i cant understand that cuz i dont play guitar and im not famous. and i guesse cuz i havnt grown up with the billy character me not being a pumpkins fan, i really would have no interest in knowing how the story ends. ok your right

Originally posted by Reyngel
It's not timeless like the other albums, and thus, it was mildly successful when it first came out, and then TOTALLY BOMBED.

and the only reason it was "mildly sucessful" when it first came out was because of all the pre-orders from loyal fans. I seriously doubt too many people ran out and bought it after hearing TEG or Try on the radio.

creed, britney spears, 50-cent.... *yawn* your right, it's better to judge machina on album sales.. thats how we know it was artisticaly succesful

Id guess the other albums dealt with relatively universal feelings and issues. Just like the famous works of cinema you mentioned. Whereas machina was centered on billy...

Ill shut up now....

thtas funny.. cuz i hear the fans, june, the rest of the machines, god mentioned just as much as billy... he uses words like 'we' and 'you' and 'everyone' far more on machina as opposed to 'I' or 'me' like on gish or saimese dream or mellon collie

The fact that not one fan was publically able to understand the story of MACHINA accurately without Billy explaining the entire thing proves that it was a failed project. If you listen to MACHINA's good tracks, which in my opinion are TTT, Wound, This Time, R+S, WEL, and AoI, and take them as what they are...just fantastic songs...then you have a decent album. Machina doesn't even come close to the callibur of SD, MCIS & Adore, and the only reason Billy said that he feels it's his best album is because EVERY BAND SAYS THAT ABOUT THEIR CURRENT WORK!!!! Do you honestly expect Billy to say, "Yeah, we've been creativally drained lately and had to make this record to help fufill our contract, so we're putting out something mediocre at best?"

If Billy thought Machina was such a phenominally mature piece of work, why does Zwan sound more like earlier poppier Pumpkins?

marlon brando: shut up. please. machina is my favorite album, and you're embarassing me.

everyone else: he only said he agreed with billy. (or that billy agreed with him. doesnt matter) doesnt need to be an argument.)

and i can relate to:

r+s
siyl
iotm
ttt
tt
tiv
wound
wel
aoi


that's 9/15. not bad. and i like every song on it anyway. it doesnt seem like filler to me... like gish and some parts of MCIS (dawn to dusk especially)

i think the only mistakes were that they put bsbt on it when the could have put speed kills, slow dawn, home, real love, or go. and they shouldve used the alt lyrics to try. and teg and try should be singles. i think siyl, tiv, and aoi would be better singles.

anyway. i'll be quiet now.

I like the pumpkins music and I like machina, but the whole machina mystery thing, i never gave two shits about. I dont think machina is their best album and if bolly thinks it is. Good for him. or glass or whoever the fuck he is.
I relate to adore the most and for his lyrics getting better and better his lyrics have always been great. even pre-gish.

why should they have used those songs? they wouldnt have fit with the concept of machina one and some of the songs you mentioned werent tottally finished either so... i dont understand your logic. not one fan understood teh machina story before it was explained? what do you call the machina contest then? tons of people understood it very well including the winner who pretty much got it all. billy wouldnt say it sucked if it did? if heard him say they sounded crappy a minute after he finished playing a song... so bassically .. you love a band that you also feel as no integrity cuz they lied to you.. telling you their album was heartfelt and took a lot of effort and they liked it when they didnt actually think of any of those.. tahts pretty fucking lame. why waste your time ehre then? why not like a band who you respect?

Originally posted by Marlon Brando
why should they have used those songs? they wouldnt have fit with the concept of machina one and some of the songs you mentioned werent tottally finished either so... i dont understand your logic. not one fan understood teh machina story before it was explained? what do you call the machina contest then? tons of people understood it very well including the winner who pretty much got it all. billy wouldnt say it sucked if it did? if heard him say they sounded crappy a minute after he finished playing a song... so bassically .. you love a band that you also feel as no integrity cuz they lied to you.. telling you their album was heartfelt and took a lot of effort and they liked it when they didnt actually think of any of those.. tahts pretty fucking lame. why waste your time ehre then? why not like a band who you respect?

uhh are you done making yourself look bad?

wow, you sure get the point. thanks for helping me understand you more by being an idiot.

the machina story is dumb and none of the earlier albums have anything to do with it

Arent people allowed to love a band and disagree with the band at the same time?

Originally posted by Spaceboy88
If Billy thought Machina was such a phenominally mature piece of work, why does Zwan sound more like earlier poppier Pumpkins?
good point. i wonder if his move towards that kind of a production sound was concious or not.

another genious pumpkin fan response. bravo!

wow, you sure get the point. thanks for helping me understand you more by being an idiot


aint it funny how we pretend we're still a child?

well on one hand people say machina sucks.. on the other hand the pumpkins say it was a top quality piece of work.. so either the pumpkins are lying and you like bands that lie and have no integrity... or you are wrong.

Originally posted by Marlon Brando
well on one hand people say machina sucks.. on the other hand the pumpkins say it was a top quality piece of work.. so either the pumpkins are lying and you like bands that lie and have no integrity... or you are wrong.

Such is the way of art. People can have different reactions. No one is lying, people are stating their opinions.

so you are saying i should love machina the most because billy said it's their best?!
you on some kinda smack kid?

ok well then you dont believe billy, you think he's lying to you. so you like bands that lie to you. thats all i needed to know.

Originally posted by Marlon Brando
why should they have used those songs? they wouldnt have fit with the concept of machina one and some of the songs you mentioned werent tottally finished either so... i dont understand your logic. not one fan understood teh machina story before it was explained?

I never said they should "use those songs." What I said is that those songs are in my opinion the only good ones on the album, and if they didn't do any concept album bullshit and made a standard album featuring those songs, it would've been a lot better than what they actually put out.

what do you call the machina contest then? tons of people understood it very well including the winner who pretty much got it all.

I call it a failed project. Nobody could even come close to fully grasping the story of Machina, and Billy had to keep give more and more clues as to what it's about. You didn't see Pink Floyd or David Bowie putting out hint after hint after hint as to what their concept albums were about because they did it correctly. They made concept albums that had a concept...not some off-the-wall mess like the whole Machina debacle.


billy wouldnt say it sucked if it did? if heard him say they sounded crappy a minute after he finished playing a song... so bassically .. you love a band that you also feel as no integrity cuz they lied to you.. telling you their album was heartfelt and took a lot of effort and they liked it when they didnt actually think of any of those.. tahts pretty fucking lame. why waste your time ehre then? why not like a band who you respect?

Give me a break. There's a big difference between saying that a song you just played sounded crappy and that an album that cost your record label tons of money is crappy. After spending X amount of dollars on the entire record process, including PUBLICITY and PROMOTION, the last thing Billy will ever do is publically admit that his current album is shit. The labels would kill him if he did, and despite what you may thing, Billy is a business man as well.

Originally posted by DeadOpera
so you are saying i should love machina the most because billy said it's their best?!
you on some kinda smack kid?

Havent you heard, the pumpkins did drugs, and they dont make mistakes.

Originally posted by Marlon Brando
ok well then you dont believe billy, you think he's lying to you. so you like bands that lie to you. thats all i needed to know.

I dont think anyone feels lied to. I think they just have a different opinion from billy :erm

Originally posted by Marlon Brando
blah blah blah

i don't even necessarily disagree with you, you're just a ignorant fucking jackass.

Originally posted by Marlon Brando
ok well then you dont believe billy, you think he's lying to you. so you like bands that lie to you. thats all i needed to know.

Yes. And if you think he's 100% truthful, and doesnt' litsen to what his publicist tells him...you are more naive then I originally thought.

so someone who has pubically talked about suicide, his mother dying, relationship with his father, sex with courtney love... revealed every personal detail someone can in public... played free shows, charity shows.. double albums.. autograph and meeting tour... all of that.. yet your saying they put out somethign that was just completley dumb but they wouldnt admit it.. not only that, they did a world tour and faked playing the songs with passion for dozens of shows just to make more money off their fans.. even though they knew they were gonna leave their record company anyway. ok, that makes sense.. man, i didnt realize how stupid and shallow the pumpkins were.

ok well then you dont believe billy, you think he's lying to you. so you like bands that lie to you. thats all i needed to know.



you are either:

1) fucking stupid
2) worst troll ev@r


i think the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

anyways: billy says machina is the best. that's his opinion. he let us know that he likes it more than his previous albums. i agree with billy. these people dont. it's ok. let them/us have aan opinion. no one lied. cool it brother.

Originally posted by Marlon Brando
so someone who has pubically talked about suicide, his mother dying, relationship with his father, sex with courtney love... revealed every personal detail someone can in public... played free shows, charity shows.. double albums.. autograph and meeting tour... all of that.. yet your saying they put out somethign that was just completley dumb but they wouldnt admit it.. not only that, they did a world tour and faked playing the songs with passion for dozens of shows just to make more money off their fans.. even though they knew they were gonna leave their record company anyway. ok, that makes sense.. man, i didnt realize how stupid and shallow the pumpkins were.

Why don't you read "music business 101" then come back and talk to me.

his publicist? so the fact that he would be giving a press conference at some charity one day, and be on howard stern the next.. wow, either he has a really shitty publicist who has no idea how to craft image, or he really was just being himself and is honest.

seriously. i agree w/ spaceboy.

its musci business. shoes salesmen have to get the shoes sold, whether the shoes suck or not. its the same with music. why the hell, if they thought the record sucked, would they release it? nad if they did release it, why would they tell you it sucked? sure it might be the truth. but records need to be sold.

Originally posted by Marlon Brando
his publicist? so the fact that he would be giving a press conference at some charity one day, and be on howard stern the next.. wow, either he has a really shitty publicist who has no idea how to craft image, or he really was just being himself and is honest.

If you had any clue about Publicity, you'd understand that exactly what you just knocked is one of the best things for his image. Do you have any clue how many people listen to Howard Stern? Do you have any idea how much exposure that gives an artist.

It's so funny and cute how you're living in this little dreamworld where it's ONLY about the music.

No go run along and play...

how can you like a band that you think is so much about money and reputation as a comercial entity? that is unbelievable.. you are complete fucking worthless peice of human waste.

no kidding howard stern is popular.. but do you see Shania Twain on there? do you see Celine Dion? do you see Britney Spears or Creed .. NO.. cuz stern is controversial and they have repuations... you are a fucking stupid dork

Originally posted by Spaceboy88


If you had any clue about Publicity, you'd understand that exactly what you just knocked is one of the best things for his image. Do you have any clue how many people listen to Howard Stern? Do you have any idea how much exposure that gives an artist.

It's so funny and cute how you're living in this little dreamworld where it's ONLY about the music.

No go run along and play...

lol
yeah sucka!

Originally posted by Marlon Brando
how can you like a band that you think is so much about money and reputation as a comercial entity? that is unbelievable.. you are complete fucking worthless peice of human waste.

Because I'm a realist.

no kidding howard stern is popular.. but do you see Shania Twain on there? do you see Celine Dion? do you see Britney Spears or Creed .. NO.. cuz stern is controversial and they have repuations... you are a fucking stupid dork

Originally posted by Marlon Brando
how can you like a band that you think is so much about money and reputation as a comercial entity? that is unbelievable.. you are complete fucking worthless peice of human waste.

The music is honest. Billy has to promote it, and its in his artistic interests to get it heard. Whats the problem.

Originally posted by Marlon Brando
no kidding howard stern is popular.. but do you see Shania Twain on there? do you see Celine Dion? do you see Britney Spears or Creed .. NO.. cuz stern is controversial and they have repuations... you are a fucking stupid dork

those people suck, maybe thats why stern didn't want them on the show.

if pumpkins cared so much about money why didnt they just remake siamese dream a few more times like most bands do when they have a hit album?

no kidding they suck you fucking idiot.. but they are hugely popular.. and howard would be so lucky to get the attention.. but they dont wanna discuss penis size and lesbians.. billy knows how to have fun so he can do stuff like that.. do you see red hot chilli peppers on ECW .. no... cuz billy does what he wants.. not for YOUR money

marlon brando is a brainwashed fan boy /obvious

that would be lame. so they tried something new. but it turned out to be half lame so. meh

i dont know about you but if i liked a band and they put somethign out i thought was terrible but pretended it was great... and then tried to scam money off me like you said the pumpkins did.. i wouldnt be a fan anymore..but for you, that seems just fine. what a fucking tool that makes you then

somebody delete this thread so there is no chance of anyone else ever being forced to read it.

Originally posted by Marlon Brando
no kidding howard stern is popular.. but do you see Shania Twain on there? do you see Celine Dion? do you see Britney Spears or Creed .. NO.. cuz stern is controversial and they have repuations... you are a fucking stupid dork

Shania Twain, Britney Spears fans and Celine Dion fans most likely aren't the same people that listen to Howard Stern. That would make no sense in promoting those artists to people who are unreceptive.

i mean you still post on this board for a band you think betrayed you.. thats amazing to me

lol and a lot of pumpkins fans listen to howard stern compared to those groups? haha ok im sure a lot of howard stern fans have Adore in their collection

Originally posted by Marlon Brando
i dont know about you but if i liked a band and they put somethign out i thought was terrible but pretended it was great... and then tried to scam money off me like you said the pumpkins did.. i wouldnt be a fan anymore..but for you, that seems just fine. what a fucking tool that makes you then


you know what, im starting to get your point.

Originally posted by Marlon Brando
i dont know about you but if i liked a band and they put somethign out i thought was terrible but pretended it was great... and then tried to scam money off me like you said the pumpkins did.. i wouldnt be a fan anymore..but for you, that seems just fine. what a fucking tool that makes you then

Please quote where anyone said the band tried to scam money off their fans, because it seems you're just putting words in our mouths.

that you are the worst troll ever

how can you like a band that you think is so much about money and reputation as a comercial entity? that is unbelievable.. you are complete fucking worthless peice of human waste.

im glad that you're so mature and 21 years old and you are wise enough to judge him and call him a 'fucking worthless peice of human waste.' .

the music IS honest and pure and artistic. but you have got to get the word out s you can reach people.

if pumpkins cared so much about money why didnt they just remake siamese dream a few more times like most bands do when they have a hit album?

mcis was a bigger hit. and they did try to recreate the epicness and variance of sound and pretentious self indulged lyrics on a future album. SEE: Machina.

:flame: :confused:


burn.

well you said they said the album was good when they knew it wasnt. and then i asume that means their world tour, all the passion they played with was faked so.. wouldnt that be scamming for you to like them and buy more of their stuff? fucking idiot

Originally posted by Marlon Brando
lol and a lot of pumpkins fans listen to howard stern compared to those groups? haha ok im sure a lot of howard stern fans have Adore in their collection

I bet you that more Howard Stern fans own Siamese Dream or MCIS than own "Come On Over" by Shania Twain or anything by Britney Spears, other than a sticky magazine picture of her. Howard Stern is aimed at a male deomgraphic of which a big chunk of them grew up on the music of the Pumpkins and other "grunge-era" alternative bands.

billy obviously thinks that machina is good, and he is obviously wrong. it's ok to disagree with billy corgan. you can still like him and the smashing pumpkins and not like machina.

I disagree.. if you DON'T like Machina.. you dont understand ANYTHING about the pumpkins, and you are NOT a fan.

Originally posted by Marlon Brando
well you said they said the album was good when they knew it wasnt. and then i asume that means their world tour, all the passion they played with was faked so.. wouldnt that be scamming for you to like them and buy more of their stuff? fucking idiot

I'm sorry Mr. Brando, but you're not reading it correctly. I said "If" Billy thought it was shit, he wouldn't say it. I never said Billy thinks Machina is crap.

I guess reading comprehension skills aren't part of being a mature 21 year old.

Originally posted by allenriley
billy obviously thinks that machina is good, and he is obviously wrong. it's ok to disagree with billy corgan. you can still like him and the smashing pumpkins and not like machina.

iS tHiS tRu!!?!?!#

well you said they said the album was good when they knew it wasnt. and then i asume that means their world tour, all the passion they played with was faked so.. wouldnt that be scamming for you to like them and buy more of their stuff? fucking idiot

no. that's not scamming.

it's giving the fans their money worth. you pay to see a concert, they give you an intense, entertaining concert.


i'm not sure exactly how to word this, but if billy was not a salesman, or dare i say SELLOUT (not in the same way as well-known pop-stars). if billy didnt want our money, why the hell would he want the smashing pumkins to becme a huge world known band? there is no denying that he intended to get big and wanted the stardom. and you say we think that he lied to us about machina's greatness so we'd buy it. .. . we never said that.

Originally posted by Marlon Brando
I disagree.. if you DON'T like Machina.. you dont understand ANYTHING about the pumpkins, and you are NOT a fan.


ahh man you are too too funny.
this is classic

Originally posted by Marlon Brando
I disagree.. if you DON'T like Machina.. you dont understand ANYTHING about the pumpkins, and you are NOT a fan.

This has got to be a troll. Nobody can be this retarded.

http://faculty.fairfield.edu/fleitas/corky.gif

he wanted stardom? yeah, im sure when he started writing songs before gish he envisioned a day where someone at Denny's would ask him for an autograph.. thats really what went through his head. he wanted teh band to be big to reach people.. he overestimated the intelligence of his fans though cuz so many people dont understand machina if you DON'T like Machina.. you dont understand ANYTHING about the pumpkins, and you are NOT a fan.

Originally posted by Marlon Brando
you dont understand ANYTHING about the pumpkins, and you are NOT a fan.

Troll feeding has commenced for the day...

he wanted stardom? yeah, im sure when he started writing songs before gish he envisioned a day where someone at Denny's would ask him for an autograph.. thats really what went through his head. he wanted teh band to be big to reach people.. he overestimated the intelligence of his fans though cuz so many people dont understand machina if you DON'T like Machina.. you dont understand ANYTHING about the pumpkins, and you are NOT a fan.


you're hilarious.


i hope you're kidding.

i like Justin Timberlake

Ok, I realise you’re just trolling based on your responses here. “I’m 21, I’m mature and can appreciate it.” Mmm-hmmm. Anyways, I’m gonna take another wack at this --

I like some tracks on MACHINA and I think a concept album is a very original idea. But just because it was an idea doesn’t mean that it was executed elegantly or even in a sensible manner. Dropping hints and clues with a wink, obscured messages halfway through posts on the SP board, incomprehensible lyrics. Not even getting the point across that it was supposed to be a concept album so people could read it that way. The songs were too disconnected and there wasn’t enough of a thematic consistent thread to keep you going from song to song.

If its Glass’ album (who used to be Zero) and he’s in love with June and goes nuts and so forth where are the references to Glass or June or Zero or even anybody in this story and cast of characters? How are we supposed to keep all the threads straight when there’s nothing even pointing you to where the story is even supposed to begin?

You listen to a song like “I of the Mourning” and you could think it’s a song about listening to the Radio, but the radio is God talking to glass and stuff. Cool concept and ads another layer to an already great song, I admit. But would we even know that without having Billy spell it out for us in the end? There wasn’t enough in the album itself to hold the concept together. Sure, if you dug around online and stuff there may have been more there but there wasn’t enough content in the album itself to justify it. Having Billy walk around saying “Oh we’re cloaked in mystery” just makes matters worse.

Basically Billy was doing a big thematic homage to Ziggy Stardust complete with a Rock and Roll Suicide at the end. Good idea but a lousy execution.

Besides that, what made the Pumpkins million sellers was something the audience could relate too and a hell of a bunch of musical talent. Lyrics that any somewhat alienated kid could relate to: “Today is the greatest day”, “Despite all my rage I am still just a rat in a cage”. Music videos like 1979 that reached out to a wide audience and struck a chord with kids. Riffs, guitar hooks and drum beats that stuck in your head. Adore may have been less successful, but it did strike a chord with hardcore fans because it was still an emotional album. MACHINA, while it was pretty good musically at times but it totally turned its back on what made people relate to them. It was a fuzzily defined concept and execution was so bad no one could connect to it or even understand it. And a concept album, ballsy as that choice may be, betrays the reason why people fell in love with the Pumpkins in the first place.

MACHINA was a nice attempt at being a piece of art but all those pieces didn’t hold together and in the end it fell apart. There wasn’t enough substance to it because the concept itself was so undefined.

Fuck this shit, I’m gonna go bang my head against a wall. It’ll be more enlightening.

Well put.

:dammit:

Worst thread in the history of message boards?

Yes.

Marlon Brando is angry because he knows that Machina is a piece of shit and a monumental failure.

Originally posted by Dead
Someone should re-write the story of Glass and all that stuff using normal language so that we could actually read and understand it. I kind of like some of the ideas but it was done in such a wacky and pieced together way that its hard to take it all in. The final revealing story thing made more sense but still...

I nominate Marlon Brando, he seems to know what its all aboot.
Don't be hatin'! I had your back, G!

I'm just saying a lot of it came across as incoherent ramblings and not everyone had the will to try deciphering it. We need a cliff's notes type thing is what I'm saying.

But about being more mature at 21..

[michael jackson]Hee hee[/michael jackson]

Marlon Brando... congratulations. Although people called you the worse troll ever, you've successfully riled up the board over this bullshit. Way to go.

As for your comment about there being the Machina Mystery Essay Contest... uh, I think there's a huge concensus among Pumpkins fans that Billy totally made up most of that bullshit on the spot, and that after the essay contest, he just went along with the best concepts that were written about by fans. I think that to a certain extent, Billy had an idea about the album projecting the image of what the band feels society sees them as, etc, etc. But I don't think it went further than that. Do you honestly think that after a huge essay contest, Billy would say "NONE OF YOU FUCKERS GOT IT, I FAILED," or would he simply applaud people's essays that at least sounded good? I remember Billy saying that the winners of the contest "had a pretty good idea." He never said their essays were dead on. The point being, his big Mystery thing did in fact exist, but not on the extreme level that fans made it out to be. Cause remember... soon after, Billy went on this whole "we are the Radio!" tangent, claiming that the fans can control the ultimate story of the album. Hmmmmm... gee, I wonder why he did that. Could it be because even HE couldn't keep up with what the FUCK people were coming up with? lol.

As for relating to songs... as far as what Billy had said in various posts, interviews, blablablabla, how can you relate to the majority of Machina?

Everlasting Gaze... "You know I'm not dead..."
Raindrops + Sunshowers... "And I'm just trying to walk with you..."
I of the Mourning... "I blow the dust off my guitar..."
Sacred and Profane... "And I will prove my release..."
Heavy Metal Machine... (the whole fuckin song)
This Time... "As the curtain falls we bid you all goodnight"
The Imploding Voice... (the whole fuckin song)
GatGC... (the whole fuckin song)
TCToM... "This is the song I've been singing my whole life..."
Blue Skies Bring Tears... (the whole fuckin song)
Age of Innocense... "A little taste of what may come..."

Okay, please tell me how anyone can really relate to all of that? It seems to me as though those songs are about specifically Billy's life... the thing's he's faced, the thing's he's going through... the public's perception of the Pumpkins... the public doubt in his artistic ability... the fan's loss of faith in him via Adore... the impending breakup of the band... etc. Only a few songs, like SIYL, Try, etc, have stongly universal concepts of love, while the rest are about specific instances in Billy and the band's life. As for mentionings of the "fans" in the songs, I don't think those mentionings provide a way to relate, but rather speak of things like the fans losing faith in him, etc, which in reality, is just another way of describing the perils of a rock and roll band trying to last 13 years. Listen to Machina 2, and you will DEFINITELY see this.

This is why, as I had already said, Machina failed. It doesn't have the timelessness that Siamese Dream, etc, had. When you listen to songs like Hummer, Soma, Tonight, Bullet, Perfect, Crestfallen, etc... they're all songs that deal with themes that are more prone to allowing the fans to mold and shape the theme into a reflection of their own live. Love, loss... all such youthful themes that have been writing songs since time began. The thing is, Billy got OLDER, and GREW UP, and MATURED. He got over all of that bullshit. I mean fuck, it's been like 20 years since a lot of those themes even entered his life! So he started writing about more adult things... things more relevent to specific issues of his own life... like his band failing commercially, trying to find himself as an older man, etc. Personally, as a 22 year old guy, I can't relate.

Sonically, Machina is great. But without the lyrics being timeless, it drops on my list of favorite Pumpkins albums.

Originally posted by Ugly
Ok, I realise you’re just trolling based on your responses here. “I’m 21, I’m mature and can appreciate it.” Mmm-hmmm. Anyways, I’m gonna take another wack at this --

I like some tracks on MACHINA and I think a concept album is a very original idea. But just because it was an idea doesn’t mean that it was executed elegantly or even in a sensible manner. Dropping hints and clues with a wink, obscured messages halfway through posts on the SP board, incomprehensible lyrics. Not even getting the point across that it was supposed to be a concept album so people could read it that way. The songs were too disconnected and there wasn’t enough of a thematic consistent thread to keep you going from song to song.

If its Glass’ album (who used to be Zero) and he’s in love with June and goes nuts and so forth where are the references to Glass or June or Zero or even anybody in this story and cast of characters? How are we supposed to keep all the threads straight when there’s nothing even pointing you to where the story is even supposed to begin?

You listen to a song like “I of the Mourning” and you could think it’s a song about listening to the Radio, but the radio is God talking to glass and stuff. Cool concept and ads another layer to an already great song, I admit. But would we even know that without having Billy spell it out for us in the end? There wasn’t enough in the album itself to hold the concept together. Sure, if you dug around online and stuff there may have been more there but there wasn’t enough content in the album itself to justify it. Having Billy walk around saying “Oh we’re cloaked in mystery” just makes matters worse.

Basically Billy was doing a big thematic homage to Ziggy Stardust complete with a Rock and Roll Suicide at the end. Good idea but a lousy execution.

Besides that, what made the Pumpkins million sellers was something the audience could relate too and a hell of a bunch of musical talent. Lyrics that any somewhat alienated kid could relate to: “Today is the greatest day”, “Despite all my rage I am still just a rat in a cage”. Music videos like 1979 that reached out to a wide audience and struck a chord with kids. Riffs, guitar hooks and drum beats that stuck in your head. Adore may have been less successful, but it did strike a chord with hardcore fans because it was still an emotional album. MACHINA, while it was pretty good musically at times but it totally turned its back on what made people relate to them. It was a fuzzily defined concept and execution was so bad no one could connect to it or even understand it. And a concept album, ballsy as that choice may be, betrays the reason why people fell in love with the Pumpkins in the first place.

MACHINA was a nice attempt at being a piece of art but all those pieces didn’t hold together and in the end it fell apart. There wasn’t enough substance to it because the concept itself was so undefined.

Fuck this shit, I’m gonna go bang my head against a wall. It’ll be more enlightening.
one of the best posts i've ever seen on this board.

Oh, and to add to what I just said...

I always thought that Machina would have done a LOT better had Billy never revealed what the album was about. That way, the songs would have been more universal... and reached and touched more people for a longer amount of time. Once you know what the song is about, it's hard to be flexible. Once Billy tells you that a particular song is about Billy's perception of the public's opinion, and his struggle to find a mediation with that to further the success of the band... it's really hard to just think of the song as a "love song," or a "depressing song," or whatever. And it loses that... timeless spark.

For such a long time, Billy said that he hated explaining his songs. He said that all the way through the end of Adore. And that's why the Pumpkins were so big in the world through those albums. More fans could more easily relate to themes that weren't confirmed or denied by the writer. They could attribute their own concepts, feelings, life experiences, etc, to the words of the songs. But when Billy opened his mouth about Machina... it drew a BIG line, with Billy on one side, and us on the other... and if you could relate to specifically what he was feeling, you could cross that line, and if not, you were alienated, and thus lost interest.

:erm

i think that marlon should just have a nice big cup of shut the fuck up.

and what he said

B0lly's execution of the Machina concept was about as good as marlon brando's execution of his argument.



<FONT SIZE="-4">maybe even a little better</FONT>

Originally posted by Eulogy
Worst thread in the history of message boards?

Yes.
Agreed. This needs to be archived so that everytime I see a god-awful thread on the general board, I can say "At least it's not like that Marlon Brando one"

This thread was so good I held off taking a piss for ten minutes so I could read it.

Ugly has everything down to an exact science, Marlon Brando is what we in the industry call a "troll", and Machina is a lacklustre album bound together by an even more lacklustre "concept". Thank you, and goodnight.

Originally posted by Marlon Brando
i mean you still post on this board for a band you think betrayed you.. thats amazing to me

Band? I just come here for the Photoshop pictures....

Originally posted by Reyngel
Oh, and to add to what I just said...

I always thought that Machina would have done a LOT better had Billy never revealed what the album was about. That way, the songs would have been more universal... and reached and touched more people for a longer amount of time. Once you know what the song is about, it's hard to be flexible. Once Billy tells you that a particular song is about Billy's perception of the public's opinion, and his struggle to find a mediation with that to further the success of the band... it's really hard to just think of the song as a "love song," or a "depressing song," or whatever. And it loses that... timeless spark.


I disagree. Ultimately, it is up to the listener to decide what they take from any song. Just because Billy says, 'Oh, this is about Glass blahblah,' doesn't mean I have to think of it that way. When listening to the album, the whole concept shit literally never enters my mind. 'Cept during G+TGC, I guess. You people should try that approach maybe. It works.

as far as the machina concept, after sifting through all the machina literature and lyrics, im truly convinced billy himself does not even know *exactly* the machina mystery is to him. if you want to argue that he put it out there for others to interpret without knowing what it means exaclty and thats part of the meaning, whatever....he still doesn't even know what he's saying.

Originally posted by keebs
as far as the machina concept, after sifting through all the machina literature and lyrics, im truly convinced billy himself does not even know *exactly* the machina mystery is to him. if you want to argue that he put it out there for others to interpret without knowing what it means exaclty and thats part of the meaning, whatever....he still doesn't even know what he's saying.

A little side note...

My favorite song on Machina is Stand Inside Your Love. And I think that it's a funny... um... coincidence... that Billy said that it's the one song on the album that has nothing to do with the whole Machina mystery bullshit... that it was simply just a love song for Yelena.

Too bad ALL of the songs weren't like that.

This thread is a thousand times funnier if you actually visualize THE Marlon Brando sitting behind a keyboard defending Machina.

Originally posted by Jason Smith
This thread is a thousand times funnier if you actually visualize THE Marlon Brando sitting behind a keyboard defending Machina.

:rofl:

Originally posted by Jason Smith
This thread is a thousand times funnier if you actually visualize THE Marlon Brando sitting behind a keyboard defending Machina.

you mess with MACHINA, you mess with the family, capiche? /raspy voice

*shoots monitor repeatedly*

.

Originally posted by Jason Smith
This thread is a thousand times funnier if you actually visualize THE Marlon Brando sitting behind a keyboard defending Machina.


LO-fucking-L

Machina coulda' beena' contenda'.

:D

Originally posted by Mariner
<img src=http://forums.netphoria.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=423793>
bolly! bolly! i coulda been a contendah.

Marlon Brando has officially been:

http://www.ihateaol.co.uk/misc/funnypics/owned.gif

Originally posted by cap'n jazz
Marlon Brando has officially been:

http://www.ihateaol.co.uk/misc/funnypics/owned.gif

:rofl: