View Full Version : I really feel for Billy...


Mood ring
06-13-2003, 05:59 PM
and the band. I dunno, maybe he's getting a slice of humble pie right now. Which, if true, is minor compared to a more serious family related issue. Either way, I feel for him...

They just had a month off in May...so, its puzzling, all this cancel stuff happening now. Im sure its complicated (or maybe its simple). Hope all is well, chin up and all that...love you. rock on!

x

sarasvati
06-13-2003, 07:48 PM
:confused: or maybe its due to the fact that no one is buying their tickets?

Nimrod's Son
06-13-2003, 07:49 PM
Originally posted by Mood ring
and the band. I dunno, maybe he's getting a slice of humble pie right now. Which, if true, is minor compared to a more serious family related issue. Either way, I feel for him...

They just had a month off in May...so, its puzzling, all this cancel stuff happening now. Im sure its complicated (or maybe its simple). Hope all is well, chin up and all that...love you. rock on!

x I often feel bad for millionaires!

Reyngel
06-13-2003, 08:46 PM
Billy's traveled all over the world, numerous times. He has millions of dollars. He has millions of loyal fans. He had the biggest double-album of all time. He's talented, intelligent, and he's 6'4", heh. He choose to be in a public rock band, or he can, at any time, leave and do a solo career. Or he can sit on a private beach for the rest of his life and play music for only himself.

The point is, Billy's got it good. He might not be behind the #1 album right now, but he used to be. He's been there, done that. I don't think anyone should feel bad for him. I'm sure he goes through bitchy moods when venues don't even sell 1/5 of their seats, but I'm sure at the end of the day, he's forgotten all about it.

Mood ring
06-13-2003, 10:20 PM
not to sound like a prick you two, but Im well aware of these things...if Billy wanted to be the biggest thing this side of Jesus Christ, he could do so tomorrow.

i thought it a bit curious they were going back to Europe so soon (after they were just there)...and now that Im on topic, that interview from last week that was posted here bugged me with the typical quip from the interviewer, "We all know Billy Corgan was the Smashing Pumpkins..." showing his obvious ignorance to The Smashing Pumpkins. but I digress...

furthermore...my armchair observation of Zwan:

The emphsasis on positivity (it seems a little pollyannish, kinda) is fine because I enjoy the music...BUT, the song Black Oblivion that Billy did with Toni Iommi I thought was a sign of things to come of post-Pumpkins. Im not sure if Sweeney and Pajo's aura measure up to that of one James Iha. Paz is wonderful but she's a girl. I half-hoped Billy was gonna hook up with some rawkin metal dudes and kick some ass and let it ride.

so...maybe Im just sticking up for Darcy and James a bit here. I always get angsty when I here about how much better musicians Pajo and Sweeney are than James and the ongoing thing about Darcy's playing. just silly.

so, there you go. it makes no sense...give me two cents. :P

sarasvati
06-13-2003, 10:45 PM
Originally posted by Mood ring
Paz is wonderful but she's a girl.

Last time I checked, I didn't think it was a problem to be a girl, and I certainly didn't think it made you an inferior musician. I don't see how your argument for D'arcy works in this situation because technically, she's also a girl.

Reyngel
06-13-2003, 10:57 PM
Originally posted by Mood ring
if Billy wanted to be the biggest thing this side of Jesus Christ, he could do so tomorrow.


Wrong. He -could have-, but that ship sailed years ago.

interzone
06-14-2003, 12:15 AM
Originally posted by Reyngel


Wrong. He -could have-, but that ship sailed years ago.

I really think Billy was under the impression that Zwan was going to take off and he was going to enjoy the SD/MCIS era fame again. Too bad for him.

Pieces
06-14-2003, 01:36 AM
Originally posted by Reyngel
He had the biggest double-album of all time.

ARE YOU INSANE?

The Beatles, White album is about x1000000000 better and bigger than Mellon Collie was/will ever be. Mellon Collie is an awesome album, but it doesn't touch the Beatles.

Mood ring
06-14-2003, 01:44 AM
fair enough...the thing about Paz just came out wrong...the image of Billy rawkin it up with Iommi or maybe being in Pink Floyd or Rush or something has always appealed to me. even still. :)

and the messianic thing...ummm, its the magic soul power stuffthat stilllll puzzlezzzzmeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee...much fear so it comes out funny. i realize...

Reyngel
06-14-2003, 04:47 AM
Originally posted by Pieces


ARE YOU INSANE?

The Beatles, White album is about x1000000000 better and bigger than Mellon Collie was/will ever be. Mellon Collie is an awesome album, but it doesn't touch the Beatles.


I only said that because I always hear that it was the biggest-selling double-album ever. Am I wrong?

Injektilo
06-14-2003, 08:14 AM
Originally posted by Reyngel



I only said that because I always hear that it was the biggest-selling double-album ever. Am I wrong?

It's the biggest selling double CD of new music ever. last time i checked anyway. So though The Wall sold about four times the number of copies, it was originally released on vinyl. And though some Garth Brooks Live CD sold twice as much as MCIS, it doesn't count cause its not new material.

as is my understanding.

Travis Meekz
06-14-2003, 03:42 PM
this thread gave me a headache

Nothing/everything
06-14-2003, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by Travis Meeks
this thread gave me a headache

Fattening Ass
06-14-2003, 04:42 PM
^ lol i agree.

Strange As Angels
06-14-2003, 04:46 PM
How do you all know he has <i>millions</i>? I'll bet he isn't as well off as you think...

Porcelina Ruby
06-14-2003, 05:10 PM
Originally posted by sarasvati


Last time I checked, I didn't think it was a problem to be a girl, and I certainly didn't think it made you an inferior musician. I don't see how your argument for D'arcy works in this situation because technically, she's also a girl.

no he could've been, he wanted that during mcis, he was big, very big, but not the biggest,
sry his music is too smart to appeal to huge very huge amount of people.

bonsor
06-14-2003, 06:34 PM
Originally posted by Strange As Angels
How do you all know he has <i>millions</i>? I'll bet he isn't as well off as you think... The Pumpkins donated every cent of ticket sales to charity. they funded the whole tour with their own money.

That's a lot of fucking money.

Age Of Empathy
06-14-2003, 06:53 PM
Originally posted by Strange As Angels
How do you all know he has <i>millions</i>? I'll bet he isn't as well off as you think...

oh shut up. Billy's fine financially.

As far as the comment goes that Billy could have been huge ...he could never have been huge. MCIS was obviously the peak of their career, they were playing arena rock shows which is good. But Pumpkins could never advance to an even higher leve.

bonsor
06-14-2003, 06:54 PM
Originally posted by Age Of Empathy


oh shut up. Billy's fine financially.

As far as the comment goes that Billy could have been huge ...he could never have been huge. MCIS was obviously the peak of their career, they were playing arena rock shows which is good. But Pumpkins could never advance to an even higher leve. even if jimmy and john didn't OD?

Cretin Soup
06-14-2003, 07:06 PM
Originally posted by ******
even if jimmy and john didn't OD?

The night before two sold out shows at Madison Sq. Garden....does it get much bigger? I think if there was a place for them anywhere higher than where they were that night then they would have reached it. Jimmy and Johnathan's unfortunate turn was definitely what marked their angle of descent.

Age Of Empathy
06-14-2003, 07:43 PM
Originally posted by ******
even if jimmy and john didn't OD?

well I didn't specifically state my point. Yes Billy was huge in the '96 era ... but I don't know if I agree with the statement that he could have remained that big if he was willing to make the same music.

Reyngel
06-14-2003, 09:10 PM
Billy sold his house for like 2 million dollars or something. Plus, when Zwan started, Billy financially supported Matt until the band got off and running. He's sold millions and millions of records, and still continues to sell records. Add that to the notion that the Pumpkins did the whole Adore tour without making any profit, and didn't break a sweat, and you can safely say that Billy's a rich motherfucker, case closed.

dustdream
06-15-2003, 04:24 AM
after being a fan of billy for so so many years, i'm starting to lose concentration.

The Omega Concern
06-15-2003, 07:07 PM
originally posted by Travis Meeks and Nothing/Everything:

this thread gave me a headache

i know the feeling...threads like these can be draining for me. Next thing you know, someones gonna mention Aliester Crowley and that's when I cover my eyes...and peak.

EverlastingGlaze
06-15-2003, 08:10 PM
Billy can eat my cock.

andysong
06-15-2003, 11:52 PM
Originally posted by EverlastingGlaze
Billy can eat my cock.

you sir, have made me lol.

Kill the Joy
06-16-2003, 02:59 AM
And Zwan is the crucifixion of Billy!!!!

lmfao

Example
06-18-2003, 05:16 PM
mstos > mcis

That is all.

Cherub Angel
06-19-2003, 12:06 AM
I wouldn't worry too much about billy. He's been in the game long enough that he should know how to handle these things. and as stated before, he's rich.


I think the main thing that generally went wrong with this recent Euro deal is that they have toured too much. They went on an American tour before and after the album came out, and Europe as well. Why the hell are they touring too much? What is their manager thinking? Or possibly Billy, who knows. You only have one shot to have that "Oh my God Billy Corgan has a new band and they're coming here!" feeling.

Even when they came to Chicago the last time. Sure, the Aragon sold out. Great. But a couple of months ago they played five shows at the Metro, why did they need to come again? Ok that they came, but it really wasn't necessary. It's just my opinion, but they should have done only this Euro tour with the festivals instead of doing the earlier one. The same thing probably would have happened (family member dying), but there would be more demand to see them.

Also, the multiple bookings in one country. Not smart.

sorry for the rant, go about your business.

TheJoker
06-19-2003, 12:24 AM
Originally posted by Example
mstos > mcis

That is all.

fag.

Corganist
06-19-2003, 12:47 AM
Originally posted by Example
mstos > mcis

That is all.

I'm sorry that you smoke crack. I love MSOTS, but to attempt to say its even in the same league as MCIS, much less claim its better, has got to break some sort of cosmic law.

Blank
06-19-2003, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by Strange As Angels
How do you all know he has <i>millions</i>? I'll bet he isn't as well off as you think...
Sell you house for over a million dollars in Wrigleyville, a few years later purchase a condo in the gold cost for over a million dollars, and your band has sold somewhere around 26 million records and gone on more than a couple world tours = Millions of dollars

Cherub Angel
06-19-2003, 06:51 PM
I actually read this quote somewhere from a local Chicago producer (don't remember who) who said:

"Rumor has it that if Corgan fell off his wallet he'd break his neck about half a dozen times."

I think he's pretty well off. The Pumpkins toured a lot, and bands generally make the most money off of touring.

Strange As Angels
06-19-2003, 09:06 PM
Originally posted by Blank

Sell you house for over a million dollars in Wrigleyville, a few years later purchase a condo in the gold cost for over a million dollars, and your band has sold somewhere around 26 million records and gone on more than a couple world tours = Millions of dollars


He probably didn't make much off the records they sold. Even though the sold millions, they still had to pay managers, producers, recording costs, music video costs, etc. And whatever money was left over had to be split between 4 band members.

bonsor
06-19-2003, 09:24 PM
Originally posted by Strange As Angels



He probably didn't make much off the records they sold. Even though the sold millions, they still had to pay managers, producers, recording costs, music video costs, etc. And whatever money was left over had to be split between 4 band members. first of all, billy is the head honcho. almost all of the writing credits are him and him only. i don't think you have any idea what that means in terms of royalties. everytime a pumpkins song is recorded or broadcast by another artist besides billy corgan, billy gets royalties off of it.

also, despite what you want to believe, paychecks are NOT split 4 ways evenly to the band, especially on record sales. I believe I read somewhere that at one point in time, Kurt Cobain was making 92% of the proft, while Dave and Krist got 3% each and management got the remaining 2%. That's how it works when your name is the only one under writing credits. It's NOT a fair game.

Billy Corgan had what Virgin records saw as a very valuable commodity and he marketed it as well as he could because he knew what he was doing. He had the whole thing planned since he was in his teens. People like TLC, however, don't know what the fuck they're doing so they let their management handle it, or rather, fuck it up. Same with MC Hammer. Same with every musician before the Beatles.

Reyngel
06-19-2003, 10:13 PM
And you know what else... if Billy was ever pressed for money, all he'd have to do is post on the Z-board that he needed a few dollars, and the money would be POURING in. lol

Reyngel
06-19-2003, 10:19 PM
Originally posted by ******
It's NOT a fair game.


I agree that Billy did/does get a way larger percentage of the royalties, but I'd argue that is IS a fair game. Billy wrote all the music. Billy wrote all the lyrics. Billy came up with the fuckin name "Smashing Pumpkins." Billy deserved a way larger percentage.

I think it should have been broken down like this:

Billy - 75%
Jimmy - 8%
James - 7%
D'arcy - 5%
Management/Producers/Others - 10%

Gary
06-19-2003, 10:33 PM
Originally posted by Reyngel


I think it should have been broken down like this:

Billy - 75%
Jimmy - 8%
James - 7%
D'arcy - 5%
Management/Producers/Others - 10%

I think that James' percentage for royalties would have been larger than any of the other SP members (except Billy of course), seeing as he has writing credits for some tracks on Siamese Dream and Mellon Collie as well as numerous others.
Also of note would be that Jimmy wouldn't be getting a cent of any royalties related to Adore and, although it didn't sell as well as Siamese Dream or Mellon Collie, I'd be pretty sure that Adore made a sizeable amount of money.

If I were to hazard a guess I'd say the royalties would have broke down like this:

Billy - 70%
James - 10%
D'arcy - 5%
Jimmy - 5%
Others (Management, etc.) - 10%

Reyngel
06-19-2003, 10:42 PM
Originally posted by Gary


I think that James' percentage for royalties would have been larger than any of the other SP members (except Billy of course), seeing as he has writing credits for some tracks on Siamese Dream and Mellon Collie as well as numerous others.
Also of note would be that Jimmy wouldn't be getting a cent of any royalties related to Adore and, although it didn't sell as well as Siamese Dream or Mellon Collie, I'd be pretty sure that Adore made a sizeable amount of money.

If I were to hazard a guess I'd say the royalties would have broke down like this:

Billy - 70%
James - 10%
D'arcy - 5%
Jimmy - 5%
Others (Management, etc.) - 10%

He may have some writing credits, but um... come on. The Boy? The Bells? Give me a break, lol.

Without Jimmy in Mellon Collie, the album wouldn't have sounded as amazing. I'm not a big Jimmy fan, but I do recognize that he is way, way more talented than James. Sure you can't compare drums to guitar, but, in terms of contributions to the band's success... just imagine if just some other drummer had been there instead of Jimmy. Songs like Geek USA, Fuck You, Silverfuck... just wouldn't have that... spark. Billy easily could have played James parts. And I'm sure that he probably did a lot of the time. I be the when James was listed in the credits for songs like Soma and Mayonaise, it was just cause Billy was in a good mood when writing the liner notes. I bet James had some imput, but in the end, it was all Billy.

Reyngel
06-19-2003, 10:45 PM
Oh, and don't forget, we're talking about the millions of dollars the band earned. So it doesn't matter that Jimmy wasn't there for Adore. Cause you know what? They probably made jack shit for that album. Their whole fuckin US tour was a charity... and they didn't make a single cent. And the album obviously didn't sell even close to what Mellon Collie did... the album that pretty much carved Jimmy's name in stone.

Blank
06-20-2003, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by Strange As Angels



He probably didn't make much off the records they sold. Even though the sold millions, they still had to pay managers, producers, recording costs, music video costs, etc. And whatever money was left over had to be split between 4 band members.

Thank you for your wisdom beyond your years. This would be too easy to argue, and it seems that a few others already pointed out the holes.

Back to reality.

Strange As Angels
06-20-2003, 05:20 PM
Originally posted by Blank


Thank you for your wisdom beyond your years. This would be too easy to argue, and it seems that a few others already pointed out the holes.

Back to reality.

Maybe Courtney can break it down for you, honey.

<a href="http://dir.salon.com/tech/feature/2000/06/14/love/index.html">http://dir.salon.com/tech/feature/2000/06/14/love/index.html</a>

Blank
06-20-2003, 06:24 PM
Originally posted by Strange As Angels


Maybe Courtney can break it down for you, honey.

<a href="http://dir.salon.com/tech/feature/2000/06/14/love/index.html">http://dir.salon.com/tech/feature/2000/06/14/love/index.html</a> Yes, that is how all bands do it. Everyone. Courtney love is the ambassador to the music industry. I am sure after getting Mariah Carey got her $28M payout from Virgin for the termination of her $80M recording contract left her with $0. Oh, and that is all after she keeps the $21M signing bonus that she got when she signed onto Virgin.

Her example uses an over-inflated rate of 20% of the profits to the ficticious band. That is great.....so they break even if they sell 1M records. I believe the Pumpkins are right around 26 Million....I think that translates into a profit. In addition add in the profit on sales of cds like Pisces and the Aeroplane Flies High box set and all other singles.

But, I don't have their agreement. Seeing how Billy put things out...SD, then PI, Mellon Collie then the box set, I think that he was most likely a little educated about their deal. Anyways, album sales have a direct relationship, in most cases to the ability to tour, where artists can make a good deal of money...yes after they deduct out all of their management fees.

Spaceboy88
06-20-2003, 07:06 PM
Originally posted by Blank


But, I don't have their agreement. Seeing how Billy put things out...SD, then PI, Mellon Collie then the box set, I think that he was most likely a little educated about their deal. Anyways, album sales have a direct relationship, in most cases to the ability to tour, where artists can make a good deal of money...yes after they deduct out all of their management fees. [/B]

Billy wasn't making these decisions all his own. Chances are Cliff Burnstein knew what had to be done to make the money. I really don't think Billy would strategize releasing B-Sides records to maximize profit. There is a reason that managers get 15%...it's because it's their job to make sure the band gets what's owed to them, and how to get the most out of it.

Anyone who feels sorry for Billy and thinks he isn't filty rich needs to relax. If a band goes Platinum, they make money...and lots of it. We all know SP has gone Platinum on many ocassions. They toured MCIS for over a year straight with most likely 90% sellouts at every (large capacity) venue. A band of SP's standing during their peak moment could have as much as a $250,000 guarantee for EACH SHOW. Minus all the costs that go into putting on the show still leaves the band with more money per show than the averge netphorian makes per year.

Blank
06-20-2003, 07:21 PM
Originally posted by Spaceboy88


Billy wasn't making these decisions all his own. Chances are Cliff Burnstein knew what had to be done to make the money. I really don't think Billy would strategize releasing B-Sides records to maximize profit. There is a reason that managers get 15%...it's because it's their job to make sure the band gets what's owed to them, and how to get the most out of it.


I never stated that he strategized....just that b-sides, more specifically, an album of a collection of b-sides then a box set that was comprised of b-sides, isn't the norm....pisces was put out to tide people over for the double disc. Aeroplane was put out to release a bunch of the other MCIS recordings.

bonsor
06-20-2003, 07:47 PM
wait wait wait. tell me if i understood this correctly. courtney said that the band must record their album with the $1M advance? for some reason, i do not believe that.

Blank
06-20-2003, 07:48 PM
Originally posted by ******
wait wait wait. tell me if i understood this correctly. courtney said that the band must record their album with the $1M advance? for some reason, i do not believe that.
You doubt Courtney?

bonsor
06-20-2003, 07:53 PM
Originally posted by Blank

You doubt Courtney? The whole article is very interesting, but somehow I doubt this hypothetical disaster that she painted for us isn't just something that <i>she</i> experienced because she is a bad businesswoman. Plus, Hole sucks. Even if she did try to get a better deal in the contract, she couldn't have. The record companies just would have said 'you're not worth it'.

Blank
06-20-2003, 09:23 PM
Originally posted by ******
The whole article is very interesting, but somehow I doubt this hypothetical disaster that she painted for us isn't just something that <i>she</i> experienced because she is a bad businesswoman. Plus, Hole sucks. Even if she did try to get a better deal in the contract, she couldn't have. The record companies just would have said 'you're not worth it'.
My thoughts exactly.

Spaceboy88
06-20-2003, 11:19 PM
What happens to that million dollars?

They spend half a million to record their album. That leaves the band with $500,000. They pay $100,000 to their manager for 20 percent commission. They pay $25,000 each to their lawyer and business manager.

That leaves $350,000 for the four band members to split. After $170,000 in taxes, there's $180,000 left. That comes out to $45,000 per person.

That's $45,000 to live on for a year until the record gets released.

(edit)

So, this band releases two singles and makes two videos. The two videos cost a million dollars to make and 50 percent of the video production costs are recouped out of the band's royalties.

(edit)

The record company spends $300,000 on independent radio promotion. You have to pay independent promotion to get your song on the radio; independent promotion is a system where the record companies use middlemen so they can pretend not to know that radio stations -- the unified broadcast system -- are getting paid to play their records.

All of those independent promotion costs are charged to the band.

(edit)



This is stupid on so many levels.

1. The fact that she contradicts her argument by using "funny math" kills it from the start. No artist would ever get a royalty rate of 20%. By using this figure she has set this whole argument up for disaster.

2. No manager this day in age would EVER in a million years get 20% comission off their artists. Maybe back in the 70's and 80's they could get away with 17 or 18%...but 20%...in 2003...absolutely ludacris.

3. Supposing each member has $45,000 to live on until the record is released. That $45,000 goes a lot further to a record label commidity whom they want to keep happy than the normal, non-major-label-signed musician. I guarantee you will never see a major label artist on welfare between the period of the recording of the album and the release. If money was a huge problem, the label could offer another advance. After all, it's all recoupable anyway. No money out of their pocket in theory.

4. A band spending 1 Million Dollars on a two videos, especially if they're not "superstar status" is ridiculous. Two high-quality videos can be made for less than $200,000 each...and that's a high figure.

5. Yes, independent promotion is a rip-off and is probably, along with MTV, the reason why music is so processed and unoriginal for the most part on TV and Radio. It's an absolute scam that's doing nothing positive except putting more money into the pockets of greedy conglomerates. Thankfully Clearchannel is taking a step in the right direction by cutting ties with indies (although knowing them, I'm sure they'll still use them, but call them "consultants.")

I'm not trying to defend the labels, but Courtney is a bitter, talentless "has-been," and now that Kurt is gone and can't write her songs, and she's alienated Billy Corgan, the other creative force behind her "talent," she feels the need to bite the hand that fed her. I don't recall hearing Courtney complain when these same practices were raking in the millions for her. Because nobody cares about her "music" anymore, she has to do something to feel like she's part of the industry.

The reason the record companies appear to "rape" the artists that bring them in the money is because the amount of money they lose on failed artists is so astronomical that they'd all be out of business tomorrow if they didn't do what they do. Instead of bitching about the way the major's run their business, why not focus on the indie labels that are doing a wonderful job of developing artists that generate profit for both themselves and the label (V2, Matador, etc...).

The bottom line is...Courtney Love is a fucking skank!

bonsor
06-20-2003, 11:31 PM
yeah, it seems that she pulled most of those numbers out her ass and made sure they all added up to one million dollars.

Blank
06-21-2003, 11:34 AM
Originally posted by ******
yeah, it seems that she pulled most of those numbers out her ass and made sure they all added up to one million dollars.
Which she had to ask her manager to add and subtract together after she typed this....which he/she charged her that $45K that she had to live on this year.