View Full Version : If Machina had been more Arising style it would not have sucked (discuss)


The Pantsmaster
06-03-2003, 04:10 PM
I agree. A good example of this is BSBT, which was way better basically every way but the one on machina I.

Reyngel
06-03-2003, 04:25 PM
I disagree. I think Machina's sound is actually pretty good. What makes Machina such a crappy album is the combination of the lyrics and the whole "mystery concept" thing.

The reason the other Pumpkins albums were so much better is because a lot of people could relate to a lot of the lyrics. But with Machina, who can really relate to songs like Heavy Metal Machine, The Everlasting Gaze, Glass and the Ghost Children, I of the Mourning, Sacred + Profane... I mean damn, just about 90% of the album's lyrics are so specifically about Billy as the front man of a huge rock band in the process of breaking up, or of the aspects of society that have eroded his progression with the Pumpkins, etc, etc. I don't know about you, but I can't really relate on an emotional level. Sure, songs like Stand Inside Your Love might yield a way to relate... but Billy even said that it's the one song on the album that isn't like all the others... that it's a sort of separate thing. The whole "people's perceptions of Billy as seen through the eyes of Glass" thing is interesting in the beginning, but it doesn't have any shelf life.

You can always go back to songs on Mellon Collie, Adore, Siamese Dream and even Gish, and you can still find a way to enjoy them through connecting to the energy of the lyrics and the music. But with Machina, it's like, it had that energy as they were breaking up, and then after they did, it suddenly was no longer relevent, and now it just plain sucks for the most part.

So no, I don't think an "Arising!" sound would have changed much.

Echorun
06-03-2003, 04:35 PM
n0! y00 D1D No+ JUS+ A++@ck BoLLy 4ND ThE m4Ch1N4 My5terY! It W45 H1$ S1N3 +o u5!

(special thanks to: http://www.geocities.com/mnstr_2000/ )

Dead
06-03-2003, 08:14 PM
I love Machina, its really great. :cool:

Travis Meekz
06-03-2003, 08:43 PM
in the end, I think Billy's musical versatile writing took a toll on the band. I think Billy tried to do too much at times. Arising songs were very good, not great, but good. I believe Billy felt that the album wasn't artistically sound enough so he needed to add the bells and whistles to it (ie...'return to rock', the mystery, 'deeper meanings')

So in a nutshell, I agree, Arising had more heart and are fundamentally better in the rocking sense (which I prefer). Who knows what Darcy really meant to the band, maybe Machina was poor because she didn’t add to it (very doubtful)

Fans of SP (not us) wanted BWBW all the time….people got disappointed

I like to ramble

Crono
06-03-2003, 08:56 PM
Originally posted by Travis Meeks
I think Billy tried to do too much at times.


YES! People often dis the production and song writing on Machina, but they usually don't have a specific reason as to why. I feel that, like with Zwan in a way, there is no space in the songs. They are thick and sludgey. You can hardly tell the guitars sometimes in all the fucked up distorition and effects. Sometimes this works, but not on an entire record. For what I'm talking about, listen to Age. I love the song, don't get me wrong, but when the bridge hits you can tell that there's more space. When the distorted guitar line comes in, it only emphasizes the difference.

Also, Billy has said that he was cooling down emotionally during Machina. Part of what made the other SP stuff so interesting, to paraphrase Billy, is that each song was a feeling that he got. He may not have felt it eveyday, but that one or two days a year he did, it was fucking strong. I think that dynamic of feeling left, and Billy tried to replace it with a failed attempt of production and tricky song writing on Machina. The album could have used a large lack of Billy's production, and a little more focus on the songs rather then the concept.

MisterLove
06-03-2003, 10:50 PM
there, happy?

Originally posted by Reyn'gel
I disagree. I think Machina's sound is actually pretty good. What makes Machina such a crappy album is the combination of the lyrics and the whole "mystery concept" thing.

The reason the other Pumpkins albums were so much better is because a lot of people could relate to a lot of the lyrics. But with Machina, who can really relate to songs like Heavy Metal Machine, The Everlasting Gaze, Glass and the Ghost Children, I of the Mourning, Sacred + Profane... I mean damn, just about 90% of the album's lyrics are so specifically about Billy as the front man of a huge rock band in the process of breaking up, or of the aspects of society that have eroded his progression with the Pumpkins, etc, etc. I don't know about you, but I can't really relate on an emotional level. Sure, songs like Stand Inside Your Love might yield a way to relate... but Billy even said that it's the one song on the album that isn't like all the others... that it's a sort of separate thing. The whole "people's perceptions of Billy as seen through the eyes of Glass" thing is interesting in the beginning, but it doesn't have any shelf life.

You can always go back to songs on Mellon Collie, Adore, Siamese Dream and even Gish, and you can still find a way to enjoy them through connecting to the energy of the lyrics and the music. But with Machina, it's like, it had that energy as they were breaking up, and then after they did, it suddenly was no longer relevent, and now it just plain sucks for the most part.

So no, I don't think an "Arising!" sound would have changed much.



I agree with you 100% about one thing. Billy's whiole "persona" made it very frustrating to be a fan at the end. Despite it all that album could have been pretty damned good, needed alot of tweaking though.

Example... Wound... hated the Arising version of it. I love what they tried to do with the Machina version. It's almost there but the vocals literally spoiled the whole thing for me. I think that's what is so frustrating... they were almost there on so many of the songs. The vocals on that song simply make my ears bleed.

TEG... if the studio version came out more like it did live on 8/13/00 with the "rant" slowed down or something it (or how about doing away with a capella altogether there??) could have made a world of difference.... the riff just plain rocks. This song definitely didn't need some of the atmospheric layering that was added in. The song is just embarassing to listen to now though, something about the mental image of Corgan weraing a black dress, doing the vogue, while doing that rediculous sounding rant.

With Every Light... I feel like this could have been classic but it just seems too wishy washy in the final album arrangement. Okay, but not great... ditto for AOI.

HMM sucked on the album, the lyrics are hardly brilliant, but god, why couldnt' they capture it in studio the way it sounded when they first started playing it during the Resume the Pose tour? At least then it would have had some raw energy or something.

Speed Kills... why was this not on the album?
Let me Give the World...? ditto

In release form this album sucked. The frustrating thing if you were a troo fan at the time is that you can imagine what could have been, because of course you have heard the demos and live versions of everything. And you know that better versions of these songs are either sitting on a CDR in your room, or locked away in the Pumpkins vaults.

Dead
06-03-2003, 11:15 PM
<font size="10">TOP POSTER!!!!!!!</font>

<img height="30" width="30" src="http://forums.netphoria.org/wwwboard/icons/icon8.gif">

Boycott Graceland
06-03-2003, 11:34 PM
i agree with the idea that the arising tour had a lot more heart than the machina album.

guz
06-04-2003, 12:54 AM
i think the machina version of Blue Skies is outstanding.

Dead
06-04-2003, 02:42 AM
What we need is a soundboard Arising show. Then we'd all be happy.

StillBecomingApart
06-04-2003, 04:07 AM
Originally posted by Dead
What we need is a soundboard Arising show. Then we'd all be happy.

2l33t4us

Reyngel
06-04-2003, 05:54 AM
Originally posted by Dead
What we need is a soundboard Arising show. Then we'd all be happy.

No way. I love hearing the boots with all the crowd screaming. I know that crowd noise isn't typically a good thing for boots, but for the Arising shows, it totally makes them amazing to listen to. Whenever I listen to the Roxy boot, and I hear the crowd go insane when the show starts with those I Am One drums... I feel like I'm there again. Soundboard would cut out a lot of that crowd enthousiasm... which made up most of the intensity of those small club shows.

C33
06-04-2003, 08:01 AM
Originally posted by Dead
<font size="10">TOP POSTER!!!!!!!</font>

<img height="30" width="30" src="http://forums.netphoria.org/wwwboard/icons/icon8.gif">
whoa! i think it's the first time i see something like that on netphoria :eek:

Ghetto_Squirrel
06-04-2003, 11:15 AM
Originally posted by Dead
<font size="10">TOP POSTER!!!!!!!</font>

<img height="30" width="30" src="http://forums.netphoria.org/wwwboard/icons/icon8.gif">

We hereby sentence MisterLove to public hanging at dawn.

mono
06-04-2003, 11:43 AM
http://www.central.edu/english/caning.gif

Dead
06-04-2003, 12:23 PM
http://www.emotioneric.com/bodyintrunk.jpg

Salena Child
06-04-2003, 01:24 PM
i am still looking for a 04/19/99 boot. that was a great show...

Smashing Corgan
06-04-2003, 04:03 PM
I agree to some extent. I love what was done to some songs like This Time and the Sacred and Profane, even though those weren't on on Arising... but a couple of those Arising songs did not translate well on the Album. When I heard Wound, I was sure it would be one of my favorite SP songs ever... but the Machina version is way too generic and there isn't enough going on musically. The live versions blow me away and I think this could have been a a definite hit if it was recorded the same way.

Mayfuck
06-04-2003, 04:50 PM
Speed Kills. The 04.10.99 version has an amazing guitar solo in the latter half but they did away with it on the Everlasting Gaze single. I was happy that they made it harder on the M2 version but it wasn't same. Blue Skies Bring Tears is also much better on the Arising! tour.

Dead
06-04-2003, 07:52 PM
Originally posted by Mayfuck
Speed Kills. The 04.10.99 version has an amazing guitar solo in the latter half but they did away with it on the Everlasting Gaze single.
http://www.my-mistake.net/infinitepics/art/art172.jpg

Boycott Graceland
06-04-2003, 07:56 PM
who wouldn't land inside your stove?

MisterLove
06-04-2003, 09:07 PM
Originally posted by Crestfallen33

whoa! i think it's the first time i see something like that on netphoria :eek:

wow i didn't know this was Usenet.

Dead
06-04-2003, 09:38 PM
Who wouldn't stand inside your stuff? :love:

Ihaman
06-05-2003, 01:00 AM
Originally posted by Mayfuck
Speed Kills. The 04.10.99 version has an amazing guitar solo

oh god yes i agree, that guitar solo blew me away

Jesse Miller
06-06-2003, 11:37 AM
My god, this thread is gay. But I;m going to make it gayer...

If Machina *was* an Arising disc, how would you sequence it? I've been toying with it and I can't find a sequence that flows. Right now, I have:

1. Glass Theme (F&E)
2. Cash Car Star (v1, edited structure to as v2)
3. Dross
4. Stand Inside Your Love
5. Blue Skies Bring Tears (Arising version)
6. Real Love
7. Imploding Voice
8. Wound
9. Glass and the Ghost Children
10. If There Is A God (demo version)
11. Speed Kills (M2 rock version)
12. With Every Light

Yep, Home can suck my cock.

RopeyLopey
06-06-2003, 11:45 AM
Why not to make it live disc? Like pick up the best show from Arising! tour and let it flow...

Jesse Miller
06-06-2003, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by RopeyLopey
Why not to make it live disc? Like pick up the best show from Arising! tour and let it flow...
Because I already did that... in 1999. :rolleyes:

RopeyLopey
06-06-2003, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by Jesse Miller

Because I already did that... in 1999. :rolleyes:

Unfortunately, studio version of the album, called MACHINA, released in 2000, completely ruined your effort...nice try, though...

Jesse Miller
06-06-2003, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by RopeyLopey


Unfortunately, studio version of the album, called MACHINA, released in 2000, completely ruined your effort...nice try, though...

Yeah, and I just loved the studio versions of Glass Theme, Dross, and Cash Car Star thatw as released on the said album, MACHINA, released in 2000.

Are you missing my point or are you trying to be difficult?

Dead
06-06-2003, 06:22 PM
Originally posted by Hyperbole
I like Machina. :erm
<img width="30" height="30" src="http://forums.netphoria.org/wwwboard/icons/icon14.gif">

C33
06-06-2003, 07:59 PM
Originally posted by Hyperbole
I like Machina. :erm

http://www.kidprintables.com/thumbsup.jpg