I listen to this interview programme most days. The guests are always interviewed by Margaret Throsby, who I have a love-hate relationship with. It's on the classical music station of Australia's national broadcaster, ABC radio, so the guests get to pick a few pieces of music, which breaks it up and is interesting in and of itself.

In the wake of our discussions about ilp and the number of us who have lived with drug dependency and now with various other 'addictive' behaviours/tendencies, I am hoping a few people here might spare an hour to listen to Dr Marc Lewis.

He talks about his experiences as a former addict who has become a neuroscientist, and gives his perspective on addictive behaviours, as he understands them ...as neural events, I guess you could say, or as a pattern of neural events?

http://www.abc.net.au/classic/content/2015/09/01/4303730.htm

I thought this could be a thread for interesting ideas concerning addiction, considering how many of us here have struggled/are struggling addicts.

see my thread in the music forum "i'm the white rabbit" for additional listenin.

Doh. Thanks noyen.

whatchoo tryin ta say, huh??

*trigger warning*

whatchoo tryin ta say, huh??

I found the interview interesting because he describes addiction as a learned behaviour/learned response.

So that would help to explain why after being drug addicts, Trotsky, reprise and I all binge eat - we've transferred our learned behaviour from drug taking, to binge eating. But he claims that the reward system in our brains is behaving in exactly the same way.

The interviewer mentioned that someone else she has talked to concerning addiction, said that as a researcher, they had not come across a single female addict that had not been abused as a child or adolescent. I found that interesting. Vindicating I guess.

It was an interesting interview for a lot of reasons - he has lived a very interesting life. Currently his work challenges the model of thinking about addiction as a disease.

He mentioned something very encouraging which was that addicts don't recover by "going back" but by "going forward". So they don't return to being the person they were before becoming an addict. They move forward to become a new person who has lived through and moved on from addiction, with all of the self awareness and resilience and peace that comes with that. I thought that was pretty cool. Encouraging.

The interviewer mentioned that someone else she has talked to concerning addiction, said that as a researcher, they had not come across a single female addict that had not been abused as a child or adolescent

Can that be right? Not ONE?

That's what she said, about this particular researcher. The researcher had said he had yet to meet even one female addict who had not been abused as an adolescent or child. Staggering eh.

Even Dr. Marc Lewis, in the interview, said that in the majority of addicts, their history shows abuse or trauma. It is sad if you think about it, that those of us who get hurt or traumatised in our early years are likely to be the ones who develop these harmful and destructive learned behaviours as we get older. We're the ones who have the least available resources to work through these behaviours and change our future behaviours, I would think.

Kinda like, if life kicks you to the ground, it likes to take a shit on the side of your head while you're down there.

I've got to listen to this. Does he give a definition of "trauma"?



Speaking of which: My mum is convinced "somatic experience therapy" sessions would help me, as I was born with the umbilical cord around my neck (3 times.. :erm:), which in her mind is the reason I'm afraid of challenges and commitment. And of course there's this therapist friend of hers in my city who would be PERFECT blah blah blah.
I'm too polite to (continue to) call her on her esoteric bullshit, but she knows how I feel about it.

No...and to be clear, this interview doesn't speak much about that - I'll see if I can track down the other one, where she was talking to that researcher.

Yeah I mean I like to keep an open mind but I would have thought that being afraid of challenges and commitment would have more to do with childhood and adolescent experiences than how you were born...but still, it could be interesting...:erm:

I binge eat too. That's why I'm pudgy and unhealthy

I went to butterfield market and bought a lemon bar, a chicken wrap, a chicken salad sandwich, an avocado roll, and watermelon juice. Ate it all "for lunch" (didn't have any breakfast), which was a late lunch, around 1 or 2. Then felt horrible and nauseous. At 10 pm I ate a chocolate covered donut and a small black coffee. Got diarrhea from bingeing and not eating moderate, healthy meals because I had gall bladder removal surgery years back (due to these bingeing habits).

I felt so good at the anticipation of being able to eat so much, and so horrible after eating.

I'm afraid to admit these things on here because there are oboarders here (not you, Emma) that I don't have a good history with. I'm not ohnoitsbonnie anymore though. I'm sad and messed up and just wanna vent

I bet my dad felt the same thing when he drank. Like so excited to be taking beer home and then feeling crappy (or not, , from what I remember) after he drank it. Maybe being an alcoholic is better in that way. Either way, it's all pancreas abuse. I have made myself throw up a few times after bingeing because I think of how I'm gonna be diabetic one day. I've already ruined my body thru overeating aesthetically so what does that matter? Don't want to be shooting up insulin

:( Yeah I know exactly how all of that feels.

I'm glad you vented here. I have been grazing all day as a way of combating reflux, which I have because I have broken my body through overeating and bingeing. The new food forces the old acidy food back down. For a while anyway.

I get that sometimes too. Does it burn your ears?

I bet my dad felt the same thing when he drank. Like so excited to be taking beer home and then feeling crappy (or not, , from what I remember)

If your dad's was anything like my alcoholism I never felt more in control and in command of my life than when I was standing before the frosty glass doors deciding what type of beer I would drink. I guess because I could predict exactly how I would feel in just a few minutes, whereas facing life sober was scary and unpredictable.

I get that sometimes too. Does it burn your ears?

No, just my throat and central abdomen. Sipping tea and chewing gum helps, too...for a while, anyway.

I'm encouraged by the idea of understanding myself and my behaviour better, and going forward into a healthier future. When I think of myself as abused and unfortunate, instead of capable and talented, there's less shame in being a fuckup and having very small goals.

When I think of myself as abused and unfortunate, instead of capable and talented, there's less shame in being a fuckup and having very small goals.

but isn't this also feeling "blocked" in some way, kinda hopeless?

Margaret Throsby, who I have a love-hate relationship with.

oh do you really?

Somehow it makes me gentler on myself. More forgiving and less angry. I don't know why. I guess my default script is my parents' frustration/anger/disappointment/contempt/distaste/disinterest. Accepting that they abused me every time they made me feel like a shit stain, every time they hit me, or blamed me for everything that went wrong in our family, liberates me from their script, and allows me to feel ok with what I'm doing right now in this moment.

oh do you really?

I dare YOU, CAIC, to listen to her weekday broadcast for an entire week, and see how you feel about her, by the end of it. I assure you that whatever you feel, it will be strong enough that you feel compelled to express it, somewhere.

I chose here. If you don't like it, you can bite my ass.

does she know you have a relationship with her?

and fuck that, vix. i ain't listening to no shit at all. i don't fucking care. i didn't even read anything in this thread.

Somehow it makes me gentler on myself. More forgiving and less angry. I don't know why. I guess my default script is my parents' frustration/anger/disappointment/contempt/distaste/disinterest. Accepting that they abused me every time they made me feel like a shit stain, every time they hit me, or blamed me for everything that went wrong in our family, liberates me from their script, and allows me to feel ok with what I'm doing right now in this moment.
ah I see, as opposed to "I'm such a stupid worthless blabla can't get anything right look at other people my age bla" - thought process?

that's one of the reasons why I like being over 30 more than my 20s. this constant "it's all my fault and I get nothing right" beating myself up.
Or what came next - "not my fault, x y and z did that to me., I'll always be damaged" - I'm sick of that, too.

Either I got tired of all that with getting older, or something else made me gentler on myself, and on my family (and whoever played a role in shit that I'd file under abuse) - whatever it is, it surely feels better.

Interesting interview. I had no idea that most addicts overcome their addiction eventually, and that the average duration of alcoholism is just over a decade.

The rest seemed to be pretty similar to what I've read about addiction. There is the behavioral element, of the brain repeatedly seeking fleeting rewarding stimuli. But there is also the cognitive element, which explains why some people find themselves addicted to the same rewarding stimuli that others have no problem resisting, and how that relates to the alternative venues of fulfillment one tends to have in life. I haven't read the book, but the recently-released Chasing the Scream apparently goes into this and its implications on the Drug War.
http://www.stuartmcmillen.com/comics_en/rat-park/

I remember reading a study that found that the children of alcoholics are more likely to have a preference for sweets (I don't wanna say "sugar addiction," because I am unsure if it's widely accepted amongst researchers that such a thing exists yet). I wonder if the explanation is genetic neurological traits, or just learning maladaptive coping behaviours from role models.

I've been having troubles with binging, especially recently. I've always had bad eating habits, as I've always tended to graze mindlessly instead of having structured meals (some days, I don't have defined meals at all, just a continuous stream of snacking). The main culprit is sweets. I tend to try to keep junk food out of my home to prevent binges, but I sometimes just end up binging on whatever's available. Even if it's not unhealthy food, the calories from fruits and sesame crackers add up. I kind of have this "hit 'em for a penny..." attitude where, if I eat over my calories or fuck up by having shitty food, I go, "welp, today's fucked, may as well eat whatever the fuck I want now and just do better tomorrow." Except I don't do better tomorrow.

I think I'm still within normal BMI and body fat percentage last time I checked, but I've gained some fat and went up a couple waist sizes over the past couple of years. Sucks, because my wardrobe is full of skinny jeans and I didn't anticipate feeling too gross to wear them. Show up to school pantsless most days.

and fuck that, vix. i ain't listening to no shit at all. i don't fucking care. i didn't even read anything in this thread.

Then how did know she has relationship with radio

Then who was phone

Each question just raises more. You are an enigma.

I am hoping a few people here might spare an hour to listen to Dr Marc Lewis.


the name sounded vaguely familiar, looked him up - someone recommended his book "Biology of Desire" to me. I'll get around to it eventually.

just saw this, also an interview with him
http://www.theguardian.com/culture/2015/aug/30/marc-lewis-the-neuroscientist-who-believes-addiction-is-not-a-disease

Then how did know she has relationship with radio

Then who was phone

Each question just raises more. You are an enigma.

i blubber truth

here's an idea about addiction

ah I see, as opposed to "I'm such a stupid worthless blabla can't get anything right look at other people my age bla" - thought process?

that's one of the reasons why I like being over 30 more than my 20s. this constant "it's all my fault and I get nothing right" beating myself up.
Or what came next - "not my fault, x y and z did that to me., I'll always be damaged" - I'm sick of that, too.

Either I got tired of all that with getting older, or something else made me gentler on myself, and on my family (and whoever played a role in shit that I'd file under abuse) - whatever it is, it surely feels better.

Yeah, I don't know exactly what it is, either. It must have something to do with age, maybe. It actually could be therapy for me. That has been really helpful. I didn't realise I had all those thoughts and beliefs about myself until they came out in therapy. But I don't think I was ready to be honest about what was going on inside me until I was older - in my 30s.

Interesting interview. I had no idea that most addicts overcome their addiction eventually, and that the average duration of alcoholism is just over a decade.

The rest seemed to be pretty similar to what I've read about addiction. There is the behavioral element, of the brain repeatedly seeking fleeting rewarding stimuli. But there is also the cognitive element, which explains why some people find themselves addicted to the same rewarding stimuli that others have no problem resisting, and how that relates to the alternative venues of fulfillment one tends to have in life. I haven't read the book, but the recently-released Chasing the Scream apparently goes into this and its implications on the Drug War.
http://www.stuartmcmillen.com/comics_en/rat-park/

I remember reading a study that found that the children of alcoholics are more likely to have a preference for sweets (I don't wanna say "sugar addiction," because I am unsure if it's widely accepted amongst researchers that such a thing exists yet). I wonder if the explanation is genetic neurological traits, or just learning maladaptive coping behaviours from role models.

I've been having troubles with binging, especially recently. I've always had bad eating habits, as I've always tended to graze mindlessly instead of having structured meals (some days, I don't have defined meals at all, just a continuous stream of snacking). The main culprit is sweets. I tend to try to keep junk food out of my home to prevent binges, but I sometimes just end up binging on whatever's available. Even if it's not unhealthy food, the calories from fruits and sesame crackers add up. I kind of have this "hit 'em for a penny..." attitude where, if I eat over my calories or fuck up by having shitty food, I go, "welp, today's fucked, may as well eat whatever the fuck I want now and just do better tomorrow." Except I don't do better tomorrow.

I think I'm still within normal BMI and body fat percentage last time I checked, but I've gained some fat and went up a couple waist sizes over the past couple of years. Sucks, because my wardrobe is full of skinny jeans and I didn't anticipate feeling too gross to wear them. Show up to school pantsless most days.

how can you be pantsless at school??

With regards to pheno/genotype inheritance, I reckon it's probably one of those double whammy deals, where your likelihood of inheritance is the same across the board unless you get both the genetic predisposition and the environmental stimuli, in which case you end up being 4 times more likely than normal...

I'm interested in the idea of 'alternative venues of fulfilment' - have you read much more about that? I haven't, but I get the feeling my psychologist has - just based on her advice to set up alternative sources of pleasure. I think that has a place in treating addiction - but you look at people who have all the resources and alternative venues in the world, and still end up battling addiction - and I feel as though there must be other aspects to treating the addicted mind.

I do wonder if it does have something to do with trauma. If there is a need for healing, then maybe a person will continue to prioritise and seek out what the brain perceives to be ameliorative experiences until the wound itself is no longer there. In which case it's not so much about gaining fulfilment through experiences, and more to do with practising the establishment of a certain state of mind...which is what the object of addiction seems to be, according to the learned behaviour model (where things that have no physiological - input into the body's system - avenue to cause addiction, like gambling & sex, can still be addictive for some people).

the name sounded vaguely familiar, looked him up - someone recommended his book "Biology of Desire" to me. I'll get around to it eventually.

just saw this, also an interview with him
http://www.theguardian.com/culture/2015/aug/30/marc-lewis-the-neuroscientist-who-believes-addiction-is-not-a-disease

Ah yes when they mentioned that title I thought that it would be an interesting one to get hold of. I hope it's not too pop science-y because I hate that kind of stuff, especially in psychology. Thanks for the interview link :)

I have struggled with binge eating from time to time. It's nowhere like it used to be.. mainly because I'm really busy but I've had my days where I've slipped into it and I'm in the thick of it before realizing.... oh hey, you're doing it again. I've done some purposeful, angry binge eating as well in the past.

I used to self injure in my earlier days of college... haven't engaged in this since, but the old feelings of wanting to have returned from time to time during heavy amounts of stress or self of steam issues. I sometimes wonder if, I will ever be able to accept myself, or love who I am. I have my good days, and bad ones.

In my teens and 20's I was always saying "sorry" to people... no matter what it was... always "sorry". Someone finally said, "what the fuck are you apologizing all the time for?" I really wasn't aware of it until then...

I'm glad to be in my mid 30's. I think I'm stronger, and wiser but.. I still have a long way to go. I don't put up with as much shit as I used to, and I say "no" to people more often when I don't want to do something.

Wish I had time to reply to this right now. I might later. But briefly, I do definitely think that addicts tend to transfer addictions. And I do think that feeling of knowing exactly how we'll feel in 5 minutes or whatever has a lot to do with it. Having reinforcing feelings like that multiple times a day gets us used to instant gratification, and it's hard to break out of that. Sure, someone who smokes feels shitty without a cig, but when they get to smoke it they feel very satisfied, something that non-addicts only feel when they actually accomplish something like getting through work or finishing a project, etc. Feeling that gratification every 2 hours or whatever is addicting as fuck.

i used to be addicted to the chronicles of narnia

now i am a weedian.

so yes, there is great truth in that which reprise says.

one day it's adventures with reepicheep and the next day it's scraping resin out of bowls

:cry:

The treatment of addiction as a "disease" has and continues to kill countless people. It's not a disease. It's a psychological and often physical experience. I also absolutely despise people who claim that sex can be an addiction. Or food can be an addiction. People with disordered eating or distructive sexual behaviors are not addicted to anything. The most comparable thing would be anxiety or OCD.

I also get angry that drug addiction is called a 'disease' but the most common way of treating the disease isnt medice or science, its various self help schemes that rely on person reflection, abstainance and religion. Would you treat Cancer (a disease) by putting someone in group therapy or making them go to Cancer Anonymous meetings and put their disease in the hands of a higher power?

Addiction is rooted in biology, learned behavior and the specific circumstances of a person's life. Its no surprisr that people who ar unhappy turn to drugs or behavior that modifies their mental state! And despite the fact that popular culture depicts addiction as an insidious temptation that almoat anybody can be pulled into, the truth is that peolle who are happy and content mostly avoid it. It needs to be treated as a health care issue, but using both medical and mental health practices.

you're looking for an argument eh. will not take bait.

i don't think i've been seriously "abused" before, so i disagree that females must have been abused to be an addict. I've just always had a really obsessive and addictive personality and then I found drugs. Is mental illness being equated to abuse or something? i dont think it's the same but i've definitely always struggled with OCD, depression, anxiety, anorexia, and full blown addiction.

how can you be pantsless at school??


Think about it. At any given moment, you don't know for certain if any of those students sitting in their desks are wearing pants.

In all seriousness, though, that was a joke and I do in fact wear pants daily. I was down to a couple of pairs that are loose enough for me to feel comfortable in, but none of them are the ones I really like all that much. And they make picking outfits more difficult because none of them are blue or black jeans that sort of accompany anything, they are olive green and acid-wash grey that I can only coordinate with some tops. I recently bought a larger pair, so I should be set for now, though.


I'm interested in the idea of 'alternative venues of fulfilment' - have you read much more about that? I haven't, but I get the feeling my psychologist has - just based on her advice to set up alternative sources of pleasure. I think that has a place in treating addiction - but you look at people who have all the resources and alternative venues in the world, and still end up battling addiction - and I feel as though there must be other aspects to treating the addicted mind.

I haven't done any serious reading into it, just suggestions similar to the cartoon I linked that people who are susceptible to addiction are retreating because they lack emotional fulfillment, such as social interaction/integration or material security or recreation or whatever. I hear that Chasing the Scream has a case study about U.S. soldiers developing heroin addictions in Vietnam, yet kicking those addictions upon returning to the States because they were removed from the stressful environment of war and were returning to families and society.

You're probably correct in thinking that can't be the whole story. I'd imagine that after getting used to the instant gratification within addiction, trying to switch to pleasures that aren't as immediate would take time.


I do wonder if it does have something to do with trauma. If there is a need for healing, then maybe a person will continue to prioritise and seek out what the brain perceives to be ameliorative experiences until the wound itself is no longer there. In which case it's not so much about gaining fulfilment through experiences, and more to do with practising the establishment of a certain state of mind...which is what the object of addiction seems to be, according to the learned behaviour model (where things that have no physiological - input into the body's system - avenue to cause addiction, like gambling & sex, can still be addictive for some people).

Yeah, I can see even non-chemical addictions as being retreats from negative feelings from trauma or lack of positive activity by focusing on fleeting gratifying experiences.

I have struggled with binge eating from time to time. It's nowhere like it used to be.. mainly because I'm really busy but I've had my days where I've slipped into it and I'm in the thick of it before realizing.... oh hey, you're doing it again. I've done some purposeful, angry binge eating as well in the past.


Yeah, I've found that keeping busy keeps me from binging, as well. Days where I'm out running errands all day, I don't really have time to stuff my face the way I do when I'm lounging out at home. But I also have a problem of binging at work because I work at a place where shit food is pretty available on my breaks. I should start packing lunches, but ain't nobody got time for that.

In my teens and 20's I was always saying "sorry" to people... no matter what it was... always "sorry". Someone finally said, "what the fuck are you apologizing all the time for?" I really wasn't aware of it until then...

I'm glad to be in my mid 30's. I think I'm stronger, and wiser but.. I still have a long way to go. I don't put up with as much shit as I used to, and I say "no" to people more often when I don't want to do something.

I probably over-apologize, too. It's funny, the other day, I turned the corner and saw the other guy coming in my direction, so I sidestepped him and said "sorry." He turned back and asked, "sorry for what?" I was like, "...uh, narrowly avoiding hitting you..." Then again, this probably has more to do with the fact that I'm Canadian than any self-esteem issues.

Wish I had time to reply to this right now. I might later. But briefly, I do definitely think that addicts tend to transfer addictions. And I do think that feeling of knowing exactly how we'll feel in 5 minutes or whatever has a lot to do with it. Having reinforcing feelings like that multiple times a day gets us used to instant gratification, and it's hard to break out of that. Sure, someone who smokes feels shitty without a cig, but when they get to smoke it they feel very satisfied, something that non-addicts only feel when they actually accomplish something like getting through work or finishing a project, etc. Feeling that gratification every 2 hours or whatever is addicting as fuck.

When I go to town on candy, I sort of just feel weak because I know I'm about to do something that I don't really want to do. And when I'm eating it, it's almost like I'm just on the verge of satisfaction, but never quite getting there. Like, each bite is just almost sweet enough, but not enough, so I need another bite. But the satisfaction doesn't accumulate, it just stays at that level. And then all the candy is gone, and I feel like I didn't even enjoy myself because I ate it all so quickly, I didn't get a chance to savour it. Which can make you want more. When it's all done, I just realize I've failed. It's weird, it's hard to identify any part of the process I actually enjoy, yet I do it and feel I need to.

The treatment of addiction as a "disease" has and continues to kill countless people. It's not a disease. It's a psychological and often physical experience. I also absolutely despise people who claim that sex can be an addiction. Or food can be an addiction. People with disordered eating or distructive sexual behaviors are not addicted to anything. The most comparable thing would be anxiety or OCD.

I also get angry that drug addiction is called a 'disease' but the most common way of treating the disease isnt medice or science, its various self help schemes that rely on person reflection, abstainance and religion. Would you treat Cancer (a disease) by putting someone in group therapy or making them go to Cancer Anonymous meetings and put their disease in the hands of a higher power?

Addiction is rooted in biology, learned behavior and the specific circumstances of a person's life. Its no surprisr that people who ar unhappy turn to drugs or behavior that modifies their mental state! And despite the fact that popular culture depicts addiction as an insidious temptation that almoat anybody can be pulled into, the truth is that peolle who are happy and content mostly avoid it. It needs to be treated as a health care issue, but using both medical and mental health practices.

I'm probably just ignorant of how the word "disease" is used in medical sciences, but I assumed that while there isn't a clear distinction between "diseases" and "disorders," the word "disease" is typically known when there is a known and consistent physical-biological cause of the set of symptoms (like pathogens), while "disorder" refers more to the set of symptoms without necessarily making any statement about the cause (because the same set of symptoms can have a number of different causes, and they are not necessarily physical, yet the set of symptoms are similar enough from case to case that they can be looked at as one phenomenon, whereas the same symptoms produces by two different sorts of pathogens, for example, may have to be treated radically differently).

In that case, addiction does seem to me to be more of a "disorder" than a "disease," and seems more similar to mental or emotional disorders than the flu or something. Again, I am ignorant, but I assumed that current psychiatric practices have already caught up to treating it with the same sorts of tools used to treat mental disorders, like CBT, medication, and counseling, and that the word "disease" is being used rather loosely, more similar to the word "disorder."

Maybe I'm just missing it, but I'm not seeing the distinction between whether something is an "addiction," or a learned habitual maladaptive behaviour used to change one's mental state when one is unhappy. But maybe I am using an odd definition of "addiction" which is already similar to the latter.

I mean, it seems similar to other compulsive behaviours in other mental disorders, but I'm an definitely no expert on this stuff or anything.

i don't think i've been seriously "abused" before, so i disagree that females must have been abused to be an addict. I've just always had a really obsessive and addictive personality and then I found drugs. Is mental illness being equated to abuse or something? i dont think it's the same but i've definitely always struggled with OCD, depression, anxiety, anorexia, and full blown addiction.

I think that's a stereotype for a lot of things. I've heard that for eating disorders, drug and alcohol abuse, etc. And of course that people who abuse others were abused themselves. It's simply not that simple.

The treatment of addiction as a "disease" has and continues to kill countless people. It's not a disease. It's a psychological and often physical experience. I also absolutely despise people who claim that sex can be an addiction. Or food can be an addiction. People with disordered eating or distructive sexual behaviors are not addicted to anything. The most comparable thing would be anxiety or OCD.

I also get angry that drug addiction is called a 'disease' but the most common way of treating the disease isnt medice or science, its various self help schemes that rely on person reflection, abstainance and religion. Would you treat Cancer (a disease) by putting someone in group therapy or making them go to Cancer Anonymous meetings and put their disease in the hands of a higher power?

Addiction is rooted in biology, learned behavior and the specific circumstances of a person's life. Its no surprisr that people who ar unhappy turn to drugs or behavior that modifies their mental state! And despite the fact that popular culture depicts addiction as an insidious temptation that almoat anybody can be pulled into, the truth is that peolle who are happy and content mostly avoid it. It needs to be treated as a health care issue, but using both medical and mental health practices.

Sorry I strongly disagree with nearly all that shit you just said.

Do you have any firsthand experience suffering an addiction? Or did you read something? Sounds to me like you're projecting your frustrations with someone who struggled with addiction on an entire class of people.

Whether we call it a disease or not, your attitude doesn't sound very helpful

The treatment of addiction as a "disease" has and continues to kill countless people. It's not a disease. It's a psychological and often physical experience. I also absolutely despise people who claim that sex can be an addiction. Or food can be an addiction. People with disordered eating or distructive sexual behaviors are not addicted to anything. The most comparable thing would be anxiety or OCD.

I also get angry that drug addiction is called a 'disease' but the most common way of treating the disease isnt medice or science, its various self help schemes that rely on person reflection, abstainance and religion. Would you treat Cancer (a disease) by putting someone in group therapy or making them go to Cancer Anonymous meetings and put their disease in the hands of a higher power?

Addiction is rooted in biology, learned behavior and the specific circumstances of a person's life. Its no surprisr that people who ar unhappy turn to drugs or behavior that modifies their mental state! And despite the fact that popular culture depicts addiction as an insidious temptation that almoat anybody can be pulled into, the truth is that peolle who are happy and content mostly avoid it. It needs to be treated as a health care issue, but using both medical and mental health practices.

It is absolutely an identifiable condition, which likely has biological routes that predispose people to it - which of course doesn't guarantee they will be an addict, or guarantee that someone without them won't be an addict. And of course it is also a condition that people who are unhappy fall into for obvious reasons. Calling it a "disease" isn't the issue - the issue is religious treatments that suck people into a continued lifestyle of 'drug recovery' which IMO is more harmful than helpful, and not treating it as a medical disorder which is what it is. The treatment of addiction as a moral failing is the problem, which is what AA/NA and other self help groups do.

I used to be very anti calling it a disease, but a disease doesn't have to be a pathogen. The most comparable thing that you suggested, OCD, is considered a disease. So why shouldn't addiction be considered one, or subsumed other another one like OCD? It can of course also be looked at as a symptom of another problem - which it always or almost always is. It is treated by medication in some cases - suboxone, methodone being the most obvious and the most controversial, but also good ole antidepressants and some experimental stuff like naltroxone, baclofen, etc. Again, these are real chemical treatments for this condition, and the problem is that people make it out like someone is a weak person for using them and not just using AA to get by.

Really, I'm not the biggest fan of addiction replacement drugs like methadone and suboxone for long term use (suboxone can be fabulous for detox/short term) but it is better than being in the cycle of coming up with money and using it all for drugs, etc. And someone who is stable on a opioid replacement drug is absolutely not doing the same thing as an active addict shooting smack or popping oxys - but go to an AA meeting and everyone treats it that way.

Really, the problem is AA/NA calls it a disease and treats it like a moral failing, and health professionals who were trained to defer to AA/NA instead of treating it like any other problem they come across.

Sorry I'm in a rush this prob isnt perfect

Yeah to be clear I tend to agree with the evidence suggesting AA/NA "moral" approaches aren't very effective and can even be dangerous. My problem is with professing "hatred" for anyone who is trying to understand why they are suffering. Fuck your opinion as to what someone should call their condition, especially if it doesn't derive from your own firsthand experience.

And by the way, the sad do NOT have a monopoly on drug and other addictions. I can be the happiest clam on earth but there's still going to be these magnets in my veins telling me to pour some ethanol in there quick.

I'm a bit unclear as to what definition of "disease" Scotty is using, because he seems to both dispute that addiction is one, yet he supports that addiction be medicalized like most other mental diseases are, and criticizes models of treatment where addiction is treated as something other than a disease.

Yeah I think "disease" is just a loaded term for some reason. I used to hate it too since that is what AA calls it but that's one thing they aren't wrong about.

It is absolutely an identifiable condition, which likely has biological routes that predispose people to it - which of course doesn't guarantee they will be an addict, or guarantee that someone without them won't be an addict. And of course it is also a condition that people who are unhappy fall into for obvious reasons. Calling it a "disease" isn't the issue - the issue is religious treatments that suck people into a continued lifestyle of 'drug recovery' which IMO is more harmful than helpful, and not treating it as a medical disorder which is what it is. The treatment of addiction as a moral failing is the problem, which is what AA/NA and other self help groups do.

I used to be very anti calling it a disease, but a disease doesn't have to be a pathogen. The most comparable thing that you suggested, OCD, is considered a disease. So why shouldn't addiction be considered one, or subsumed other another one like OCD? It can of course also be looked at as a symptom of another problem - which it always or almost always is. It is treated by medication in some cases - suboxone, methodone being the most obvious and the most controversial, but also good ole antidepressants and some experimental stuff like naltroxone, baclofen, etc. Again, these are real chemical treatments for this condition, and the problem is that people make it out like someone is a weak person for using them and not just using AA to get by.

Really, I'm not the biggest fan of addiction replacement drugs like methadone and suboxone for long term use (suboxone can be fabulous for detox/short term) but it is better than being in the cycle of coming up with money and using it all for drugs, etc. And someone who is stable on a opioid replacement drug is absolutely not doing the same thing as an active addict shooting smack or popping oxys - but go to an AA meeting and everyone treats it that way.

Really, the problem is AA/NA calls it a disease and treats it like a moral failing, and health professionals who were trained to defer to AA/NA instead of treating it like any other problem they come across.

Sorry I'm in a rush this prob isnt perfect

The guy in the interview I posted is not impressed with AA /NA either, but he does argue that treating it as a disease is not as helpful as treating it as a learned behaviour.

I hadn't thought of it that way before, but I think the learned behaviour model better explains how a lot of us ' transfer our addictions ' from one thing to the other. I makes sense to me that actually, we're not transferring an addiction, we're simply engaging in the same learned behaviour....I know that eating now has the same sense of anticipation and reward as drugs did. I know a LOT of people who drink wine at night or eat sweets, once the kids have gone to bed.

A psychiatrist who was treating me in 2001 told me that everyone has addictions, everyone is addicted to something. it's just a matter of managing your addictions so that you are causing yourself and those around you, the last amount of damage. I think that's pretty true. Those of us who struggle with binge eating or gambling or drug addiction have an unfortunate and strong attraction to things that are really bad for us. I've had an exercise addiction before - that wasn't bad for me, but my kids ended up being neglected in gym creches and at home with their dad, while I was working out. I didn't care about anything more than I cared about working out twice a day. :/

Binge eating damages my health and is embarrassing as a learned behaviour, because it is so visible. But I can binge easy during the times in not worth my kids, and it doesnt have a huge impact on my kids.

reading this board often feels like an exercise in masochism.

I explored alternative venues of fulfilment today and bought a couple of dresses on sale and had my eyebrows shaped. And had a long black, a banana and salmon hosomaki for lunch. So there's probably a bit of help in that tactic - thanks Disco King.

Actually, I see what I did there was engage in instant gratification using activities other than drugs or food. Dammit. DAMMIT DAMMIT DAMMIT

Please excuse me, I have to go eat a few fistfuls of candy.

reading this board often feels like an exercise in masochism.

Exercise is good for depression. And that can help you overcome addiction. So keep reading.

I explored alternative venues of fulfilment today and bought a couple of dresses on sale and had my eyebrows shaped. And had a long black, a banana and salmon hosomaki for lunch. So there's probably a bit of help in that tactic - thanks Disco King.

You're welcome.

Actually, I see what I did there was engage in instant gratification using activities other than drugs or food. Dammit. DAMMIT DAMMIT DAMMIT

I'm sorry.

Actually, I see what I did there was engage in instant gratification using activities other than drugs or food. Dammit. DAMMIT DAMMIT DAMMIT

not that it's any of my business, but have you considered sex with your husband?
it might solve more than one problem.

My roommate got out of rehab in July after about 8 months. A couple of weeks before we moved he called me crying that he relapsed and his gf caught him and that he would never do that again. Yesterday, he told me he's been unemployed for a month (I kind of figured but I didn't want to get in his business, he had paid rent and given me money for utilities anyways) that he's been binging again, and that he's going to rehab and he's known for a while that this was going to happen but hes too chicken shit and selfish to tell me. I've bought food, beer, entertainment, anything to make living a peaceful life bearable for him and he's been leaving in the middle of the night to so whatever with whomever. Hed leave for a couple of hours during the day too but his mom lives close by so I assumed he was either with her or his gf. I was wrong. I tried talking to him shortly after we moved in about his past drug use and his current social situation (going to parties on weekends) and he got terribly defensive and I ended up feeling like a jerk. I should have taken his defensiveness as a sign. I don't think I've ever been so upset and disappointed at anyone and I don't know if I have the right or whatever to be. He's mentally sick at best, a lying sociopathic asshole at worst. Oh yeah, and he knows I can't afford the place on my own but that clearly doesn't matter to him. Oxycontin is more important.

:( oxycontin is really fucking hard to kick, nothing and i mean NOTHING feels as good as that (opiates in general really) and for me it has motivated me to do some less than awesome things to be able to get it and do it. that sucks hnibos to have that happening so close to you and affect you. he's lucky to have a good friend and i hope one day he realizes what he must have done to you. he's probably in a hyperfocused fog, i know i can be. i hate the thought of hurting other people but i'm pretty much so far below everyone that i can't anymore. we're a group who is all like this so no one is getting screwed over by it.

not that it's any of my business, but have you considered sex with your husband?
it might solve more than one problem.

also ******* pix plz and thank u.

it will solve more than one problem.

it has motivated me to do some less than awesome things to be able to get it and do it.

like what

you forgot to ask her to ******* pix, fool

1) decriminalize possession of illicit drugs

2) make it illegal for an employer to fire someone for addiction (not unlike other conditions covered by the ADA)

3) Provide free mental health and recovery services

4) provide free drugs to addicts that agree to treatment, especially for people in high risk groups like IV drug users.

you sound like a satanist

I am

you got me!

Baphomet uber alles!

1) decriminalize possession of illicit drugs

2) make it illegal for an employer to fire someone for addiction (not unlike other conditions covered by the ADA)

3) Provide free mental health and recovery services

4) provide free drugs to addicts that agree to treatment, especially for people in high risk groups like IV drug users.

But but

Drugs are bad

Marijuana is dangerous and isn't the marijuana I smoked in the '70s because the level of evilgens in it has increased 1000000%

Gateway drug to murder

Will get in the hands of children

Convenience stores will sell them in the $0.25 bulk bins and people won't even use the tongs they'll just use their hands because they are so strung out on drugs and they'll spread public toilet germs

I buried a child in marijuana

parody thread: ideas for addiction

clean livin'

1) decriminalize possession of illicit drugs

2) make it illegal for an employer to fire someone for addiction (not unlike other conditions covered by the ADA)

3) Provide free mental health and recovery services

4) provide free drugs to addicts that agree to treatment, especially for people in high risk groups like IV drug users.

spoken like a true clueless dem!!!

like what

I pawned my car, all my instruments, my jewelry, assisted my husband in selling most of his electronics, instruments, and anything of value. I basically sold everything except my body. And I've thought about that far too seriously at times.

I've also engaged in unsafe practices like using the same needle over and over again when I couldn't get another one, and risked shooting pills that I wasn't sure would cook up easily. Any other questions?

do you ever wish you'd sold your body instead of your stuff?

not really, i didn't use that stuff and am not a "stuff" oriented person. I'd rather buy an experience any day, even if it is fleeting. i don't mind not having a car because my husband got so many fucking tickets in that thing that life is actually cheaper without the risk.

plus my views on sex are not conducive to me being a hooker.....i only sleep with people that i want to sleep with, so i would never charge. i've had a hard time turning away a few good offers in desperate situations but i am always glad i said no

it's still kind of fucked up, though. selling your car, for instance.

Why did he get so many tickets?

it's still kind of fucked up, though. selling your car, for instance.

She acknowledged that.

She acknowledged that.

chill out i'm drunk and i just drank a bunch of codeine cough syrup

chill out i'm drunk and i just drank a bunch of codeine cough syrup

If you run out, are you willing to sell your body to get more?

no but i think if i was broke i might. i'm not going to claim some kind of moral superiority. i can afford whatever and the only difference between me and some other fuctional nut job is resources

Employing one's junk in mopping up the disposable income spills of instant gratification types is nothing to be ashamed of.

Thread's depressing.

Why did he get so many tickets?

I seriously wonder about him sometimes. Two were for speeding, two were for running stop signs, one was for no insurance, and one was for driving at night with no headlights. I was never in the car with him when he got any of them, but from my previous experience riding with him I know he is a fucking terrible driver. I always have to point out stop signs and red lights, and sometimes other cars. I don't know where he is looking when he is driving but it sure ain't the road! :erm:

When he drove us to New Mexico and back I thought I was gonna die. He drove at 120 mph the whole way back weaving in and out of trucks. I was more dopey than usual from getting anesthesia in the hospital or I would have driven. I haven't been on an extended road trip with him as the driver since.

no but i think if i was broke i might. i'm not going to claim some kind of moral superiority. i can afford whatever and the only difference between me and some other fuctional nut job is resources

I kind of disagree with you because when you're giving in to a real addiction, you will inevitably use up all your resources for your drug. It's just more important to you.

Yeah but scotty is like, really wealthy.

Yeah but scotty is like, really wealthy.

Thread's depressing.


<lolo>

i wish i could sell my body to sexy milfs. sigh.

or elven babes. or buxom cyborgs.

the possibilities are endless.

oh, I didn't realize he was that loaded. I guess it takes some serious dedication to blow through THAT much money, but I still think I could do it. I mean what do you think the $1200 I got for my car immediately went to....-_- And the drugs from that were gone in less than a week, so...any addiction is head-spinning, for sure.

not if ur addicted to complacency

or sloth

just two example, yo

I bought the book on Friday and it's about half finished.

http://d3by36x8sj6cra.cloudfront.net/assets/images/book/large/9781/6103/9781610394376.jpg

I don't know enough about neuroscience to vouch for what he says in that regard. I take anything I read in the pop science genre with a grain of salt. He's attempting to give a clear, "layman's" version of what he has learned about addiction as a neuroscientist. And he illustrates it with five personal accounts of people who became drug addicts.

The first anecdote reminded me a lot of ilp - nice girl with good grades goes to a liberal arts college, meets a guy, starts enjoying drugs recreationally, and over time becomes a heroin addict. She was adamant that there had been no abuse or trauma sufficient to pre-empt her addiction, but also talked about a "shithead stepfather" which in my opinion indicates there was definitely sufficient trauma & abuse.

I think most posters here would find it a fairly stimulating and recreational read. Being a former addict, he definitely has an insider's perspective, and he describes the experiences of the addicts he interviewed, their cravings, their intense desires, their tensions and anxieties, really well. It's interesting to walk the path of somebody else's addiction for a while.

If you trust me with your address and you want to read it after me, I'm happy to post it.

this is worth a watch if you haven't seen it

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/PY9DcIMGxMs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I bought the book on Friday and it's about half finished.

http://d3by36x8sj6cra.cloudfront.net/assets/images/book/large/9781/6103/9781610394376.jpg

I don't know enough about neuroscience to vouch for what he says in that regard. I take anything I read in the pop science genre with a grain of salt.

isn't he a studied neuroscientist, uni prof for developmental psychology? not sure what you mean with "pop science" in this context, do you mean books with anecdotal cases?

Which reminds me, it must be almost 10 years since I read Daniel Goleman, EQ - and I still remember some cases from that book.

I dunno. It's just how I am. I'm sceptical. If I can't understand it myself, I find it hard taking somebody else's word for it, that's all.

oh by "pop science" I mean science books written for the popular market as opposed to the academic one.

ah right, the only times I hear someone use the term "pop science" now, it seems to imply it's not worth their time (academics who are above that), it always sounds dismissive, so it's confusing for me.

And then I wonder how someone with a degree in astrophysics (for example) would be able to read academic research on neuroscience, as opposed to a pop science book like this one...

Did you get his other book, too - Memoirs of an Addicted Brain?
I'll pick up the Biology of Desire next week, sadly I fell into a book I found - John Grisham....can't stop now!

No, they didn't have it at the store - would be an interesting read though. I did finally pick up The Road Less Travelled by M. Scott Peck though. So I'll read that next.

Yeah I think pop science definitely has its place as long as people know what they're reading - it's an introduction to a complicated and time consuming subject, for people that don't have the time or energy to gain any kind of expertise. I guess I just prefer to think of it as someone's perceptions or opinions, rather than cold hard observations and analysis in their most reliable form, if that makes sense?

So much to read, so little time.

I remember my grandfather telling me he was disappointed when he realised he would not be able to read every book ever written, before he died. And I thought, you compromising fool! Sure there's a way, you're just not imaginative enough to work it out!

It took a few more years before it really sank in...