View Full Version : Monuments is better than Zeitgeist or Oceania


killtrocity
12-03-2014, 01:21 AM
much better. The only redeeming aspect of Zeitgeist was Jimmy, and he's buried in the shit ass mix.

Monuments just piles on the catchy hooks and is pretty varied in style... Tiberius is the best song he's made in a very very long time. One and All sounds like a MCIS era B-side. I don't love the whole thing, but I love 40% of it, which is more than I can say about anything since Machina. Only real beef is the lyrics

idk I mean it's not MCIS, but really what the fuck are you expecting at this point?

Shallowed
12-03-2014, 01:39 AM
I agree, and I'd also add its short length to the list of reasons why it's better. I liked Oceania and all, but it overstays its welcome, and I never bother to listen to it because of that.

TbK vol 1 and 2 also might have been improved by putting them together instead of spreading the releases so thinly. And then the entire TbK project would make a lot more sense instead of something that's entirely been made up as it goes along.

Sonic Johnny
12-03-2014, 01:53 AM
Cholera is better than AIDS or Ebola

Implosion
12-03-2014, 01:55 AM
Wait a while until the novelty of the new album fades. No way will this opinion prevail.

Order 66
12-03-2014, 02:02 AM
it seems to be the fulcrum where he finally let go of pretenses about what a "smashing pumpkins" album is supposed to be (even though zeitgeist and oceania deserve credit for shaking things up in places.) so for that reason i think it'll be looked back on more fondly

though they're very different it reminds me a lot of TFE, which was a very personal album without the weight of the brand anchoring him down. likewise monuments is a take on music he listened to growing up. i think it's about a much simpler and innocent time in his life

killtrocity
12-03-2014, 02:03 AM
yeah the good stuff just feels honest, has interweaving melodies like the old stuff... but god, the lyrics just kill the potential on some of the songs (feel alright tonight, I love a girl like you or whatever the fuck)

Wait a while until the novelty of the new album fades. No way will this opinion prevail.

No way... there are 3-4 songs on this one that are legit. Oceania has maybe 2. Zeitgeist, I don't even know... have to be in the right mood, doesn't really go anywhere. And even then, I'm trying to block out the abhorrent vocals and listen to jimmy jam do his thing.

thedeadofnight
12-03-2014, 02:05 AM
I thought the same about Oceania when it first came out.....haven't listened to it in over a year

Stinstrom3
12-03-2014, 02:09 AM
From the music side of it I think it is without question better than Zeitgeist and Oceania. Hell Dorian alone musically is one of the best songs I think he has written. As unpopular of an opinion as that may be.

Mals Marola
12-03-2014, 02:09 AM
some of the songs are great, probably at least 6 out of the 9, actually, but i feel like it was much more enjoyable listening to these on their own before the album even came out than it is to listen to the whole thing in a proposed album casing or whatever

the sugar factor of it all as a whole album though just becomes overwhelming, especially around the run2me-dorian mark/run of tracks

killtrocity
12-03-2014, 02:16 AM
this was unquestionably designed as a sampler pack to hopefully offer something which might be injected into mainstream radio play

but honestly the batting average is just higher amongst this bunch

thedeadofnight
12-03-2014, 02:17 AM
From the music side of it I think it is without question better than Zeitgeist and Oceania. Hell Dorian alone musically is one of the best songs I think he has written. As unpopular of an opinion as that may be.

I agree about Dorian. I was surprised with it. I got a sorta Here's to the Atom Bomb mixed with TFE vibe, really cool

Stinstrom3
12-03-2014, 02:20 AM
I will say I really want to read the lyrics for all the songs. I can only truthfully understand the chorus on the songs and very little in the verses. There may be some good lines of lyrics in the verses that we haven't heard?

Mals Marola
12-03-2014, 02:32 AM
this was unquestionably designed as a sampler pack to hopefully offer something which might be injected into mainstream radio play

but honestly the batting average is just higher amongst this bunch

right, a song like "monuments" just doesn't quite hit as hard comin after two other synth-heavy tracks for me though

the "pumpkins hangup" thing that was mentioned earlier in this thread might have actually filled the thing in a bit more, some rock epic or whatever coming between drum + fife and monu might have actually made it the clear-cut best album since machina ii

Mals Marola
12-03-2014, 02:33 AM
good tunes tho

for sure

werideatdusk
12-03-2014, 02:56 AM
this was unquestionably designed as a sampler pack to hopefully offer something which might be injected into mainstream radio play

but honestly the batting average is just higher amongst this bunch

yeah this is true, and it's weird cause SP has always been such an "album band". Zeitgeist seems like it was kinda thrown together too but at least has a consistent sound to make it fit. This one really does feel like a long EP. So it has to be judged a bit differently than something like Oceania which was designed to take the listener on a journey. Or at least that's what Shaman Durek told me.

Bread Regal
12-03-2014, 03:06 AM
yeah, the album is full of hooks and while some of them really fail, at least he's trying.

MyKeyZ
12-03-2014, 04:09 AM
Zeitgeist > Monuments > Oceania

Zeitgeist is harder and more Pumpkins sounding than Monuments and Oceania combined.
If only Jimmy would come back to drum in the studio things would be so much better... just give us that.
Of course, if he toured that would be amazing... but just get him in the studio at least and all will be well in the world.
If Jimmy was on Monuments album, then maybe it would be better than Zeitgest... he would have definitely added an edge and give helped give the album a more unhinged quality instead of this rigid and safe version of SP we have today.

killtrocity
12-03-2014, 04:28 AM
these songs are soooooo not jimmy... there's this RHCP style swagger going on. Oceania he could have tremendously helped, but this one would not even exist were he in the picture

Sonic Johnny
12-03-2014, 05:13 AM
"RHCP style swagger" is pretty generous. Sounds like wall-eyed Tommy Lee struggling to find the groove in corgan's anemic 2014 riffs. Chad Smith woulda fucked the shit outta those songs.

amoergosum
12-03-2014, 05:15 AM
Zeitgeist > Monuments > Oceania


I agree.

pumpkins
12-03-2014, 06:02 AM
Wait a while until the novelty of the new album fades. No way will this opinion prevail.

Totally agree.

houseofglass11
12-03-2014, 06:04 AM
I disagree to agree about agreeing

Mals Marola
12-03-2014, 06:34 AM
let's agree to disagree, house of disagreements

fuzzyroes
12-03-2014, 06:44 AM
the thing thats much better about Zeitgeist is that Billy actually had a lot to say on it. It was a spirited , ambitious effort. You can tell there was passion put into it.

Theres some great songs on this album, but I kinda get the vibe that Billys hearts not into it

fuzzyroes
12-03-2014, 06:46 AM
I'm just listening to Zeitgeist for the first time in awhile right now and I still don't understand why it generated the response it did. Sure the vocals are a little dry, but it's still a pretty fucking cool album.

s0ss
12-03-2014, 08:44 AM
I'm sure this has no staying power - but I can't even get through Oceania. I give up by the middle and that's with me skipping that first shitty track.

MyOneAndOnly
12-03-2014, 09:33 AM
it's a good solo follow-up to TF

not that it's similar in style. but that it's obviously something that he was into and did well, and he isn't trying to force it into what SP is supposed to be. like or dislike the songs, he did a good job with them. Unlike Zeitgeist which sounds like the last gasp of grunge billy

MyOneAndOnly
12-03-2014, 09:39 AM
It feels to me like THIS is what he should have done in 2009 instead of TBK

LaBelle
12-03-2014, 09:40 AM
It's better than Oceania and the first wave of Teargarden songs (or whatever Billy wants to call those)
but it's way worse than anything on American Gothic and Zeitgeist.

Shadaloo
12-03-2014, 10:48 AM
There's an decent album buried somewhere in Zeitgeist's shit production. When he gets around to reissuing and reworking that, I'm hoping it can be saved a little.

The album's got more punch than Oceania, but I find it just as disappointing for different reasons.

It's an improvement over most of the initial round of TBK output, I'll give it that.

Virex Kills
12-03-2014, 01:32 PM
I agree about Dorian. I was surprised with it. I got a sorta Here's to the Atom Bomb mixed with TFE vibe, really cool

Add to that the one chord from Stellar that makes my heart melt. Just really loving Dorian right now.

Rumpkin
12-03-2014, 01:47 PM
smells like teen poo

GLOWer
12-03-2014, 02:04 PM
zeitgeist and american gothic suck. worst things (aside from the zwan album) corgan has ever put out. you guys are nuts. monuments wont be burning the lies off my soul, but they're the catchiest songs billy has conjured in years (outside of the second teargarden ep, esp. freak).

he's definitely trying on this album. the whole thing smacks of effort. i appreciate it.

ninsp
12-03-2014, 02:29 PM
ZEITGEIST IS TRASH

THERE LITERALLY IS NO TWO WAYS AROUND IT

STOP WITH THE FUCKING NOSTALGIA.

BurtSampson
12-03-2014, 02:32 PM
ZEITGEIST IS TRASH

THERE LITERALLY IS NO TWO WAYS AROUND IT

STOP WITH THE FUCKING NOSTALGIA.

United States is a good song tho

jimmy drevpile
12-03-2014, 02:35 PM
Catchy? Sounds like Tinted Windows to me.
I'm sure Zeitgeist will still be held above it in a few years

ninsp
12-03-2014, 02:49 PM
United States is a good song tho

Live, maybe. On record it's a turd

Butt Pope
12-03-2014, 03:21 PM
zeitgeist and american gothic suck. worst things (aside from the zwan album) corgan has ever put out. you guys are nuts. monuments wont be burning the lies off my soul, but they're the catchiest songs billy has conjured in years (outside of the second teargarden ep, esp. freak).

he's definitely trying on this album. the whole thing smacks of effort. i appreciate it.

Zwan is 10X better than monuments. For one Billy doesn't sound like someone is stepping on his neck the whole album.

GLOWer
12-03-2014, 03:23 PM
Zwan is 10X better than monuments. For one Billy doesn't sound like someone is stepping on his neck the whole album.

but the songs are so bad.

gyang333
12-03-2014, 04:23 PM
zeitgeist and american gothic suck. worst things (aside from the zwan album) corgan has ever put out. you guys are nuts. monuments wont be burning the lies off my soul, but they're the catchiest songs billy has conjured in years (outside of the second teargarden ep, esp. freak).

he's definitely trying on this album. the whole thing smacks of effort. i appreciate it.

Doriannnnnnnn Doriannnnnnnnnn Doriannnnnnnnnn Doriannnnnnnnnnnnnnn


effort?

GLOWer
12-03-2014, 04:33 PM
Doriannnnnnnn Doriannnnnnnnnn Doriannnnnnnnnn Doriannnnnnnnnnnnnnn


effort?

ya ya. musically.

killtrocity
12-03-2014, 06:29 PM
United States is a good song tho

...minus the 3 minutes of wanking towards the end. fucking terrible. but otherwise yes it's cool

killtrocity
12-03-2014, 07:03 PM
yeah it's like he's completely unaware that synths don't have to sound like the shit that Mexican polka bands use. YO BILLY LOOK AT WHAT YOUR 90'S CONTEMPORARIES ARE DOING TODAY aka richard james and trent reznor

GLOWer
12-03-2014, 07:08 PM
i really like Billy's synth sounds and i'm not even a smashing pumpkins fart sniffer. vintage and cheesy are often synonymous when it comes to synths, but i can get behind it. you either get it or you don't. i do understand it could be a deal breaker.

werideatdusk
12-03-2014, 07:59 PM
people need to understand that Quasar is meant to be played a certain way, namely LOUD and on VINYL. maybe then you'll all get it.

hmph.

slunken
12-03-2014, 09:05 PM
yeah it's like he's completely unaware that synths don't have to sound like the shit that Mexican polka bands use. YO BILLY LOOK AT WHAT YOUR 90'S CONTEMPORARIES ARE DOING TODAY aka richard james and trent reznor

yea but look at it from the other side: his other experimental synth work is purely exploratory. he's interested but it's clear he doesn't know what he's doing in the sense that you can tell he's still fascinated by the instrument. no real nuts and bolts work going on.

also still can't believe that OPN opened for NIN

slunken
12-03-2014, 09:14 PM
The only redeeming aspect of Zeitgeist was Jimmy,

Monuments just piles on the catchy hooks and is pretty varied in style... I don't love the whole thing, but I love 40% of it, which is more than I can say about anything since Machina. Only real beef is the lyrics



Cholera is better than AIDS or Ebola



though they're very different it reminds me a lot of TFE, which was a very personal album without the weight of the brand anchoring him down. likewise monuments is a take on music he listened to growing up.

these were all points i wanted to express.

also the fact that it is so short the album never wears out its welcome. there are times when i can't believe i'm listening to the next song already and its great.

also i found this in a thread from may 2007 about what i wanted zeitgeist to sound like and it's basically this album (monuments)

You know,

Panorama by The Cars (1980) has always been one of my favorite records. Hands down The Cars' best, IMO. In fact I always personally thought that it would be the record Billy would prefer (as opposed to other early Cars releases).

So I was just listening to it today (and right now) and sure enough, there's Roy Thomas Baker's name stamped right on the back. Duh.

It's known that Billy is a Cars fan but this on this album the influence is ridiculously obvious.

The production is very modern (for the times 1980) but it doesn't go balls out like a lot of records did and exploit the technology. It's well done in its restraint.

It has that great herky-jerky quality (dynamics) with a lot of little effects here and there. I don't think we're in for "over-production" yet the album will be very "processed".

Weird processed background vocals,punctuated and distinct guitars, laser sounds as drum punctuation, really snappy but heavy drums (i'm talking the white man's two-step - floor toms and backbeats). It's very raw but definitely a studio album.

I'm talking that quasi-disco rock sound we get on things like Frantic Ab Groove, Viper, Zero single...

Lyrically the album is VERY MCIS (in the lyrical structure and style) yet thematically the songs are very MACHINA-esque.

Misfit Kid (i get cooled out / i get the come ons / i get rumbled / i get crumbled / i'm an american misfit kid / still wondering what i did) always makes me think of glass' theme

Down Boys (you were trying to be cute / but it didn't work out / you were trying to be charming / and it didn't come off / you were trying to be clever / a big waste of time / you can't make it with the down boys / you were trying to be in / oscillation in shame

Panorama (i'm going to get what's coming to me / no surprises no impressions / get the picture i'm on my knees / looking at your hot shot / turning down your offer / i'm pulling my flag up / i'm miles away)

What i'm getting at (in all this muck) is that I've got a theory that we will receive Machina lyrical themes (Bolly vs the World) with MCIS musical attitude (a modern take on 80's pop rock).

Yet it will all be very *new*.

I dunno...I've got that gut feeling again and I can only try to explain it...anybody else feelin' me?

Panorama?


lol anti-hero is the nail in the coffin

Spira|_
12-03-2014, 09:31 PM
Catchy? Sounds like Tinted Windows to me.
I'm sure Zeitgeist will still be held above it in a few years

Put in your head Oceania, Z and Monuments are totally forgetable albums, in a few years nobody ever will talk about them. Just us here, and for bad reasons of course.

Spira|_
12-03-2014, 09:43 PM
I prefer Monuments over Z and Ocegaynia. Sounds me better. Not sure why, maybe coz I feel it more from the heart than the others. At least some parts I feel.
But still being just an ok album and I would prefer Billly never did it and keeps the epic legacy intouchable.
What I dislike most on the album is the amateur synths. And vocals right next....

freshfacedyouth
12-03-2014, 09:48 PM
ocegaynia? really?

chotchkiss
12-03-2014, 11:04 PM
people need to understand that Quasar is meant to be played a certain way, namely LOUD and on VINYL. maybe then you'll all get it.

hmph.

I'm with you on Quasar. I'm the type that also loves Superchrist, Gossamer, The Dream Machine, As Rome Burns . . . type of songs. The more prog-rock and metal stuff is usually my preference. The song Oceania is probably my other favorite off of Oceania.

Mals Marola
12-04-2014, 12:08 AM
ocegaynia? really?

really makes you wish you thought of it first, huh?

thedeadofnight
12-04-2014, 01:54 AM
The synth during the "And still she's gone" part of Oceania is one of Billy's worst ever moments

werideatdusk
12-04-2014, 02:39 AM
the acoustic part with "Oh would I, follow you" is one of the best recorded moments of SP2

christian zombie vampires
12-04-2014, 04:23 AM
just listened to this for the first time. it really is better than zeitgeist and oceania, and machina. i can't believe it reminds me of TAFH, which i always thought of as squandered potential for a pop album. the lack of ambition and pretention put it below SP1 but also makes it stand out of the shadow of SP1 for the first time. the synths are also genuinely distinct and fresh, like he finally learned to use a synth to play a simple riff next to the big guitars instead of transforming the song into full blown new wave/new age.

it seems like throughout anytime in SP2/3 that he's talked about being serious about wanting commercial success and then whining that he doesn't have any, it's been a complete joke because nothing billy has done since adore has even remotely sounded like something that could be even close to an actual hit, until now. you could hear this in target or over a reality show montage or having a brief run on top 40 radio or whatever music success is now, which you couldn't say for most of oceania. he actually deserves it for once.

reminds me of backspacer. didn't like it or buy it or keep the mp3s but didn't hate it, could see why it existed and didn't begrudge them for earning a huge hit with simple cheesy ballad.

reprise85
12-04-2014, 06:57 PM
Okay so. This album says nothing important and has very little substance. But it is VERY fun to listen to and I enjoy it more than Oceania and Z. Zeitgeist has much higher highs and lower lows and Oceania is mostly boring. This album is just fun and easy to jam out to. It's pretty good. 6/10.

slunken
12-04-2014, 07:05 PM
Okay so. This album says nothing important and has very little substance. But it is VERY fun to listen to and I enjoy it more than Oceania and Z. Zeitgeist has much higher highs and lower lows and Oceania is mostly boring. This album is just fun and easy to jam out to. It's pretty good. 6/10.

i will paypal you $1000 to change your avatar to a picture of stone cold steve austin

slunken
12-04-2014, 07:06 PM
preferably one of him performing his signature finishing move

Phoenix Down
12-06-2014, 07:22 AM
much better. The only redeeming aspect of Zeitgeist was Jimmy, and he's buried in the shit ass mix.

Monuments just piles on the catchy hooks and is pretty varied in style... Tiberius is the best song he's made in a very very long time. One and All sounds like a MCIS era B-side. I don't love the whole thing, but I love 40% of it, which is more than I can say about anything since Machina. Only real beef is the lyrics

idk I mean it's not MCIS, but really what the fuck are you expecting at this point?

You must be out of your fucking mind. There's so much cringe potential on Monuments it's not even funny. Run2Me is in all likelihood the worst song he ever put on an album.

Monuments could have been an okay solo record but it just completely falls flat as a pumpkins record.

BurtSampson
12-06-2014, 01:02 PM
the acoustic part with "Oh would I, follow you" is one of the best recorded moments of SP2

this. it makes sitting through the first four trudging minutes worth it.

Ram27
12-06-2014, 01:09 PM
the acoustic part with "Oh would I, follow you" is one of the best recorded moments of SP2

It's the only thing post 2003 that doesn't sound completely overthunk or overdone

Stinstrom3
12-06-2014, 01:33 PM
Monuments will do, at least on a small scale, what he intended to do. Make a more accessible record to the mainstream public. It won't be anything huge of course but it will bring in fans that may otherwise not give them a chance. My daughter is fairly young so shes into pop music but two of her favorite three smashing pumpkins songs have come recently, Pale Horse and Being Beige. Time will tell

gyang333
12-06-2014, 05:30 PM
I guarantee you that Monuments will not chart nearly as well as Oceania did. There's been so little promotion of the album. I felt that EMI put more into promoting Oceania than BMI is with Monuments.

Phoenix Down
12-06-2014, 08:07 PM
Monuments will do, at least on a small scale, what he intended to do. Make a more accessible record to the mainstream public. It won't be anything huge of course but it will bring in fans that may otherwise not give them a chance. My daughter is fairly young so shes into pop music but two of her favorite three smashing pumpkins songs have come recently, Pale Horse and Being Beige. Time will tell

I'd really prefer some music your daughter would hate from Billy.

Mals Marola
12-06-2014, 09:05 PM
what's the 3rd one
1979, disarm?

Stinstrom3
12-07-2014, 02:59 PM
I'd really prefer some music your daughter would hate from Billy.

Same here.

Stinstrom3
12-07-2014, 03:01 PM
what's the 3rd one
1979, disarm?

It's Shame. Which I would venture to say is the one she likes the best as she will ask for it to be played when riding in the car a lot of the time.

Ram27
12-07-2014, 06:10 PM
Your daughter is a tr00 fan

Mals Marola
12-07-2014, 06:42 PM
yeah wow didn't see that comin

kids 2day

Elphenor
12-07-2014, 06:47 PM
daughter is confirmed patrician

chrisothoulo
12-07-2014, 11:42 PM
I'm just listening to Zeitgeist for the first time in awhile right now and I still don't understand why it generated the response it did. Sure the vocals are a little dry, but it's still a pretty fucking cool album.

if you add the b-sides, Zeitgiest is great to me. Starz, United States, Neverlost, Stellar, Death From Above, Zeitgeist, Trantula, Doomsday Clock, Bring the Light are all top notch.

christian zombie vampires
12-08-2014, 12:19 AM
yeah the zeitgeist era had enough material to make an album much better than monuments but almost none of that material was from zeitgeist itself. i've always liked tarantula, US, starz and doomsday clock but everything else was crap.

dreams of glass
12-08-2014, 12:21 AM
Cholera is better than AIDS or Ebola

I see what you did there

SpFission
12-08-2014, 12:45 AM
Oceania songs that I would still replay as of today: panopticon, odoh, pinwheels, violet rays and oceania. 5/13

I havent heard Monuments yet but if it can get in the 5/9 or 6/9 range I'll consider it a solid album.

And..Zeitgeist is pretty much crap.

chrisothoulo
12-08-2014, 12:45 AM
99 floors, peace and love, gossamer ...the possibilities

SpFission
12-08-2014, 12:46 AM
Drum and Fife sounds like something off of TAFH..me like

SpFission
12-08-2014, 12:48 AM
Oh and Being Beige is very mehhh

Mals Marola
12-08-2014, 03:27 AM
yeah the zeitgeist era had enough material to make an album much better than monuments but almost none of that material was from zeitgeist itself. i've always liked tarantula, US, starz and doomsday clock but everything else was crap.

hence why silver zeit is such a worthy release

jalora
12-08-2014, 02:42 PM
"Zeitgeist" had some excellent songs but the album was completely ruined by the atrocious production. I cannot listen to it. It's painful to my ears. The only song on the record I can tolerate is the title track, for obvious reasons. Live versions of these songs are delightful. Also, for some inexplicable reason, they left the best songs from this period off the album.

"Oceania"'s songwriting is weaker, but the record sounds pretty good. Or, at least as good as a modern record can sound with the shitty mastering everyone does these days (I long for the days of "Disintegration" but it looks like trusting people to use their volume knobs is over for good). I don't revisit the whole album, but it has it's moments. Count me as somebody who enjoys the synths.

"Monuments" is such an outlier I can't focus on it yet. I appreciate a couple of the songs, but most are pretty generic. The album sounds good in places and bad in others. It sounds like Billy choked the life out of it trying to conform to the idea of a short pop album. I would like to hear this stuff evolve live but I don't think he has a real band anymore, so I doubt that happens.

The exploding boy
12-08-2014, 04:00 PM
(I long for the days of "Disintegration" but it looks like trusting people to use their volume knobs is over for good). .


"This music has been mixed to be played loud"

killtrocity
12-08-2014, 08:54 PM
Other reviews are starting to be aggregated at Metacritic.

*so far* it has 77/100 which is higher than any other Pumpkins album on Metacritic after MCIS.

http://www.metacritic.com/person/smashing-pumpkins

See, guys.

BloodstainedJar
12-09-2014, 02:32 AM
Oceania>MTAE>Zeitgeist

Oceania has the best sound to me, the best guitar work of the three, and the best overall songs. Loved it for the most part. A couple songs don't do a lot for me, but Quasar, Panopticon, The Chimera and Inkless are fucking fantastic in my book.

MTAE is interesting... I'm not loving it yet, but the tracks grow on you. Really digging Anti-Hero, Tiberius and Run2Me.

Zeitgeist was decent but overall it just felt kind of hollow to me. I think Billy got caught up in trying to get everyone on his side again that he made a fairly generic rock album. It does have some cool spots though. I don't care what anyone says; Come On Let's Go and Starz were fucking great songs. And Pomp and Circumstances was interesting. I think though that the best songs of this era were either left out as bonus tracks (Stellar, Zeitgeist), released on the follow up EP that no one paid attention to (Sunkissed, Again, Again, Again) or not released at all (Gossamer).

Implosion
12-09-2014, 02:51 AM
See, guys.

It's dropped four points since then.

lionheart0
12-09-2014, 02:58 AM
It's dropped four points since then.

Say it ain't so.

Eulogy
12-09-2014, 09:37 AM
Totally inane lyrics throughout. But um. Other than that I really like it so far? I'm shocked.

Eulogy
12-09-2014, 09:40 AM
And I agree with the thread topic. Although zeitgeist did have some highlights (Stellar, Zeitgeist, TTW)

Modern90's
12-09-2014, 11:20 AM
Monuments was a very light album for billy to make. Hoping DFN has the darker songs we were promised. But I'll give monuments a 4/9

ninsp
12-10-2014, 01:06 PM
After letting it sink in, there are some songs on here that are the best he's written since his heyday, but there's too much trash on here. Oceania is overall a much better album. I really like Oceania from start to finish. It is a good album experience, a tribute to progressive 60s and 70s rock. I just like the fact that it's an overall album experience. Monuments doesn't have that. Like I said, it should've been an EP.

Still, I think this is a far more promising album for the future. Really looking forward to DFN.

Reyngel
12-11-2014, 05:10 AM
My take:

1. MTAE has some truly great melodies, guitar work, effects and overall production. Probably the best since 2000.

2. MTAE has horrible vocals for large parts of the album. An example would be how he sings "cherry blossom" in Being Beige. That terribly-executed vibrato and dropped consonant thing is still haunting him. If he'd just sing without all of those try-too-hard embellishments, he'd sound amazing. There are signs of him having great vocals throughout the album, but it's hard to appreciate when I'm cringing over the many bad instances.

3. Tommy's drumming on MTAE settles all disputes: Mike Byrne was the worst drummer the Pumpkins ever worked with. Jimmy will always be the King, on a completely untouchable level for all eternity as far as the Pumpkins go. But there have been other bright points over the years: Matt Walker, Joey Waronker and even Kenny Aronoff to a certain extent. And now Tommy joins them as a drummer that actually fits well with the music. Again, he can hardly hold a candle to how telepathically Jimmy works with Billy, nor Jimmy's skill level and instincts, but Tommy sounds great nonetheless. And we should all be so grateful that Byrne is finally gone.

4. MTAE is missing Billy's poetic lyrics of albums past. A lot of shallow, repetitive meandering. The great melodies and riffs help to disguise that shortcoming, though.

5. Oceania, in my opinion, is the worst Pumpkins album ever released. Mostly because of the weak, confusing drumming. But also, none of the songs caught my ear. I gave it an honest try, and I respect him trying to keep the whole thing going. But it is just a weak album... on par with how weak Mary Star of the Sea was.

6. Zeitgeist is incredibly misunderstood, in my opinion. It was a really great album. But the hype and expectations that surrounded the return of the Pumpkins didn't allow it to stand on its own legs. People wanted and expected a second Siamese Dream, and when they got something very different, it became hard to judge objectively. Personally, I've always felt some of his best lyrics can be found on that album. Pomp and Circumstances and 7 Shades of Black are as well-written as anything from 2000 and before.

7: MTAE is far better than Oceania and most of anything from that Teargarden train wreck. But better than Zeitgeist? I'm going to say No. Zeitgeist had great guitar work, great melodies, better vocals, better lyrics and Jimmy Chamberlin. If MTAE had him singing without the vibrato or consonant-dropping, it'd have a better argument, though...

ninsp
12-11-2014, 12:15 PM
My take:

1. MTAE has some truly great melodies, guitar work, effects and overall production. Probably the best since 2000.

2. MTAE has horrible vocals for large parts of the album. An example would be how he sings "cherry blossom" in Being Beige. That terribly-executed vibrato and dropped consonant thing is still haunting him. If he'd just sing without all of those try-too-hard embellishments, he'd sound amazing. There are signs of him having great vocals throughout the album, but it's hard to appreciate when I'm cringing over the many bad instances.

3. Tommy's drumming on MTAE settles all disputes: Mike Byrne was the worst drummer the Pumpkins ever worked with. Jimmy will always be the King, on a completely untouchable level for all eternity as far as the Pumpkins go. But there have been other bright points over the years: Matt Walker, Joey Waronker and even Kenny Aronoff to a certain extent. And now Tommy joins them as a drummer that actually fits well with the music. Again, he can hardly hold a candle to how telepathically Jimmy works with Billy, nor Jimmy's skill level and instincts, but Tommy sounds great nonetheless. And we should all be so grateful that Byrne is finally gone.

4. MTAE is missing Billy's poetic lyrics of albums past. A lot of shallow, repetitive meandering. The great melodies and riffs help to disguise that shortcoming, though.

5. Oceania, in my opinion, is the worst Pumpkins album ever released. Mostly because of the weak, confusing drumming. But also, none of the songs caught my ear. I gave it an honest try, and I respect him trying to keep the whole thing going. But it is just a weak album... on par with how weak Mary Star of the Sea was.

6. Zeitgeist is incredibly misunderstood, in my opinion. It was a really great album. But the hype and expectations that surrounded the return of the Pumpkins didn't allow it to stand on its own legs. People wanted and expected a second Siamese Dream, and when they got something very different, it became hard to judge objectively. Personally, I've always felt some of his best lyrics can be found on that album. Pomp and Circumstances and 7 Shades of Black are as well-written as anything from 2000 and before.

7: MTAE is far better than Oceania and most of anything from that Teargarden train wreck. But better than Zeitgeist? I'm going to say No. Zeitgeist had great guitar work, great melodies, better vocals, better lyrics and Jimmy Chamberlin. If MTAE had him singing without the vibrato or consonant-dropping, it'd have a better argument, though...

Arguably one of the worst analysis of anything on here I've ever read. If you think Corgan's vocals are awful, you're a fucking idiot. Billy's lyrics were never poetic, and if you think so, nostalgia is clouding your view, and you're a fucking idiot. Really, only exception is maybe, shit, For Martha. (In the eyes of the jackal I say ka-boom. Lyrical gold.) Oceania is a solid, progressive inspired album and is far better than this shallow, simplistic album, and if you think MTAE is better, than you're a fucking idiot. Zeitgeist is complete trash, and it's trash because it's mastered unlistenable and Corgan's vocals sound like someone molesting a cat. Zeitgeist did not have better vocals, lyrics...you're a fucking idiot with nostalgia clouding your view.

SpFission
12-11-2014, 12:18 PM
Zeitgeist had reaaaally bad vocals. Oceania had a few songs with decent vocals. His vocals on MTAE are quite excellent imo. Aside from a few spots..i.e. Being Beige

Reyngel
12-11-2014, 01:30 PM
Arguably one of the worst analysis of anything on here I've ever read. If you think Corgan's vocals are awful, you're a fucking idiot. Billy's lyrics were never poetic, and if you think so, nostalgia is clouding your view, and you're a fucking idiot. Really, only exception is maybe, shit, For Martha. (In the eyes of the jackal I say ka-boom. Lyrical gold.) Oceania is a solid, progressive inspired album and is far better than this shallow, simplistic album, and if you think MTAE is better, than you're a fucking idiot. Zeitgeist is complete trash, and it's trash because it's mastered unlistenable and Corgan's vocals sound like someone molesting a cat. Zeitgeist did not have better vocals, lyrics...you're a fucking idiot with nostalgia clouding your view.

I guess you're in the minority, then, of people who actually think his dropped consonants and poor vibrato are a good thing. Actually, I don't think I've ever come across a single person who said they thought those two things were a positive. Ever. Because those two things were the ONLY things I referenced in the way of disliking the vocals. In fact, I also said that if those two things weren't present on MTAE, there were signs of him having great vocals.

His songs have NEVER had poetic lyrics? And your example was XYU? Ha, I'll just stop my reply here. To make valid points in a discussion is one thing, but to try to troll... eh. Not worth it.

davin
12-11-2014, 02:03 PM
i like zeitgeist, other than the JC factor, because it was edgy and bold and obnoxious and took chances.

Oceania and MtaE are both sophmoric efforts by SP standards.

Remember when we all thought gLOW was suimple and catchy just ebcause it was made to be played on Guitar Hero? Well, apparently every fucking song is gonna be like Glow or Come On (Lets Go) now....vague catchy anthems that can be easily interchangeable and don't really resonate.

i feel like the band is taking less chances and taking the safe easy road.

i also think TL in the studio, and the new guys in teh band are all just to drum extra attention. we all know these people could have invariably been anyone. Other than brad's pounding gorilla drumming, i dont see any of these people, other than the Shredder, having an impact on the writing or the vibe of the band.

somewhere along the way the band became a fake caricature of itself. kinda like a Pro Wrestling character is.

quarky
12-11-2014, 03:03 PM
I like all three in different ways, and they have strengths and weaknesses. The latter two are lyrically weaker, but musically more creative perhaps? Oceania is probably the album I have listened to the most times over the past two years (well, it is, I checked Google Play) but it misses the vibe of other Pumpkins material. MTAE gets some of that back and is more varied than Oceania. Both have tracks that are filler, but some of the tracks like Tiberius, Anaise!, One and All, are better than almost all tracks on Oceania (Pinwheels, Oceania, and Violet Rays I really like though).

MTAE is just more compact and so harder hitting.

Still, I (seriously) wouldn't claim to be anything like as much of a real fan(tm) as most people here because I don't listen to Pumpkins as much as I am sure many people here do (I would consider them my second (or maybe third favourite band), but as a slightly less diehard fan, I really like MTAE so far.

Even BB sounds much better on the album than stand alone. I was pretty disappointed when I first heard it, but it seems to fit on the album quite well.

Elphenor
12-11-2014, 03:07 PM
If it wasn't for the intro BB would be a cool song

SpFission
12-11-2014, 05:05 PM
These songs are just so catchy. I think this was Billy's goal with this album.

krackhead
12-11-2014, 05:42 PM
zeitgeist is better.

MTAE
12-11-2014, 06:14 PM
Some great songs. Monuments and Dorian maybe my favorite, and back to back like that is just right.

Billy's lyrics were never poetic

Have you lost your damn mind?

Mals Marola
12-12-2014, 12:58 AM
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/SW3asFFlnZE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

killtrocity
12-12-2014, 01:31 AM
Care to explain why you posted that? Why is the mother a fuzzy black blob?

Mals Marola
12-12-2014, 01:34 AM
i was divinely inspired to post it as an indirect response to ninsp's absolute outrage

first thing that came to mind

sue me

and no i'm not answering the other questions

killtrocity
12-12-2014, 01:39 AM
My take:


yeah no.

ZG:
- worst vocals of any BC album
- mediocre at best songwriting. Generic song structure
- worst mixing of any pumpkins album
+/- arguably Jimmy's best performance, but you can barely hear it
+/- lyrics nebulous but never really meaningful

oceania:
+/- vocals better than ZG
- I cannot remember most of this album. Not interesting or memorable, but there are one or two keepers
+ mixing generally fine
- worst drumming of any BC album
+/- mostly inoffensive lyrics

MTAE
+ best vocals in a long time
+/- some dynamic song structure, compact and catchy, nothing really bold or risky
+ mixing generally pretty good, see tiberius
+/- not Jimmy but also not the kid
----- worst lyrics Billy has ever sharted out

The exploding boy
12-12-2014, 01:44 AM
Arguably one of the worst analysis of anything on here I've ever read. If you think Corgan's vocals are awful, you're a fucking idiot. Billy's lyrics were never poetic, and if you think so, nostalgia is clouding your view, and you're a fucking idiot. Really, only exception is maybe, shit, For Martha. (In the eyes of the jackal I say ka-boom. Lyrical gold.) Oceania is a solid, progressive inspired album and is far better than this shallow, simplistic album, and if you think MTAE is better, than you're a fucking idiot. Zeitgeist is complete trash, and it's trash because it's mastered unlistenable and Corgan's vocals sound like someone molesting a cat. Zeitgeist did not have better vocals, lyrics...you're a fucking idiot with nostalgia clouding your view.


Well as long as that's settled...


you must make friends easy.


Also Billy's lyrics were pretty much always poetic what?. Fairly verbose, sometimes florid, a lot of imagery/metaphors/allegories.


Im not saying i agree with the other guy about a lot of it but talk about nerd rage reaction.

Anyway personally i think zeitgeist is the worst and that MTAE is better than Oceania.

Mals Marola
12-12-2014, 07:40 AM
Arguably one of the worst analysis of anything on here I've ever read. If you think Corgan's vocals are awful, you're a fucking idiot. Billy's lyrics were never poetic, and if you think so, nostalgia is clouding your view, and you're a fucking idiot. Really, only exception is maybe, shit, For Martha. (In the eyes of the jackal I say ka-boom. Lyrical gold.) Oceania is a solid, progressive inspired album and is far better than this shallow, simplistic album, and if you think MTAE is better, than you're a fucking idiot. Zeitgeist is complete trash, and it's trash because it's mastered unlistenable and Corgan's vocals sound like someone molesting a cat. Zeitgeist did not have better vocals, lyrics...you're a fucking idiot with nostalgia clouding your view.

is your name Dylan

gyang333
12-12-2014, 03:18 PM
Oceania was fine, but honestly Monuments is just bad...

Zeitgeist was a nice way to reintroduce the band. Oceania was a way of saying, hey we're still here and we can still make good music. Monuments is that timid kid who sits in the corner not drawing any attention from anyone. If the sales projections from the other thread is accurate (~17,000) sold for the week, that's pretty bad. Zeitgeist moved >100k and Oceania brought in ~45k in its first week. And yes music consumption habits have changed but 17k is really bad.

bye june
12-13-2014, 11:38 AM
yeah no.

ZG:
- worst vocals of any BC album
- mediocre at best songwriting. Generic song structure
- worst mixing of any pumpkins album
+/- arguably Jimmy's best performance, but you can barely hear it
+/- lyrics nebulous but never really meaningful

oceania:
+/- vocals better than ZG
- I cannot remember most of this album. Not interesting or memorable, but there are one or two keepers
+ mixing generally fine
- worst drumming of any BC album
+/- mostly inoffensive lyrics

MTAE
+ best vocals in a long time
+/- some dynamic song structure, compact and catchy, nothing really bold or risky
+ mixing generally pretty good, see tiberius
+/- not Jimmy but also not the kid
----- worst lyrics Billy has ever sharted out

If only we had the best elements of those albums in one record instead of three mediocre ones.

I haven't got my copy of Monuments yet but I really like "One and All" and "Dorian"

bye june
12-13-2014, 11:40 AM
I actually really like Oceania but it's just not on the same level as the great SP records.

ninsp
12-13-2014, 03:04 PM
I actually really like Oceania but it's just not on the same level as the great SP records.

Same here. If it was just a Billy Corgan album than I think it would've gotten due as one of the best alt albums of the past few years.

ninsp
12-13-2014, 03:05 PM
On another note, Monuments fucking rips on vinyl in a way Oceania never did.

Mals Marola
12-13-2014, 05:36 PM
aw fuck now i really hate myself for getting the cd instead

what am i going to do, in this cold world

ninsp
12-13-2014, 05:41 PM
aw fuck now i really hate myself for getting the cd instead

what am i going to do, in this cold world

Can't blame you for skipping it after Oceania and MCIS were fucking atrocious on vinyl. Zero is still unlistenable despite my best cleaning efforts.