View Full Version : Hobby Lobby SCOTUS ruling


scottytheoneand
06-30-2014, 10:31 AM
micropenis

scottytheoneand
06-30-2014, 10:34 AM
Right Wing court agrees that corporations are people and if you have a Uterus your boss can decide whether you get health care or not.

http://live.scotusblog.com/Event/Live_blog_of_opinions__June_30_2014#

redbreegull
06-30-2014, 11:48 AM
I'm gonna party so hard in the street when Scalia dies

redbreegull
06-30-2014, 12:14 PM
Anagram time

Antonin G. Scalia

SATANIC LOANING

scottytheoneand
06-30-2014, 12:33 PM
what if Ginsburg dies while we have Republican president

If the GOP retakes the Senate I doubt Obama will ever get another judicial nominee approved.

scottytheoneand
06-30-2014, 03:50 PM
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en data-scribe-reduced-action-queue="><p>It was a tough choice today. Celebrate Hobby Lobby by going to Chick-Fil-A or making my wife make me a sandwich. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/CFAFTW?src=hash">#CFAFTW</a></p>&mdash; Erick Erickson (@EWErickson) <a href="https://twitter.com/EWErickson/statuses/483681750363947008">June 30, 2014</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Trotskilicious
06-30-2014, 04:19 PM
LOL GET IN THE KITCHEN BITCH AND MAKE ME SOME CHICKEN

HOORAY YOU HAVE NO RIGHTS

god i hope this country collapses soon, i think i'd be pretty happy dying from riots

Order 66
06-30-2014, 06:06 PM
fucking love erik erickson. dude is spot on about everything

scottytheoneand
06-30-2014, 06:15 PM
One more republican president and my wife will be my property

Order 66
06-30-2014, 06:36 PM
i notice rebublican presidents tend to be spot on

Future Boy
06-30-2014, 08:10 PM
the system works

redbreegull
06-30-2014, 10:58 PM
One more republican president and my wife will be my property

barring a massive political shakeup the GOP will not win the presidency again unless they seriously alter some core tenets of their platform. it is quite unfortunate that ginsburg won't retire under obama though. as much as we hate politicians for being egomaniacal power thirsty narcissists, SCOTUS judges are worse. These people view themselves as untouchable golden princes, carrying out some sacred, divine duty.

redbreegull
06-30-2014, 11:11 PM
Forbes – Hobby Lobby invested in numerous contraception and abortion products while claiming religious objection (http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/2014/04/01/hobby-lobby-401k-discovered-to-be-investor-in-numerous-abortion-and-contraception-products-while-claiming-religious-objection/)


excuse me I have to throw up now

scottytheoneand
07-01-2014, 07:50 AM
the GOP doesn't have to win the presidency to control the country. They've gerrymandered half the state legislatures and house districts. As long as they control the supreme court and at least one house of Congress it doesn't much matter who is in the white house. All the Dems can do is mitigate the damage they are doing.


The only way they'll lose control of the house is if Dems somehow are able to correct the Gerrymandering that's gone on over the past decade so that states like Michigan, which votes majority democratic in House elections doesn't continue to end up with a 9-5 GOP majority in it's congressional delegation. For the time being, even if Dems regain the house in a wave election, they won't hold it for more than a cycle or two because of this Gerrymandering. Plus the Dems that win in those gerrymandered districts are all conservatives anyway.

The system is completely FUCKED!

redbreegull
07-01-2014, 05:18 PM
I know all that, but you understand the president is who appoints justices to SCOTUS, yeah?

Order 66
07-01-2014, 07:39 PM
proof?

redbreegull
07-01-2014, 07:43 PM
damn you got me

scottytheoneand
07-02-2014, 11:17 AM
I know all that, but you understand the president is who appoints justices to SCOTUS, yeah?

The president couldn't even get his appointment to head the Civil Rights division through the Senate because the guy was a civil rights lawyer! And it was so called Moderate Democrats that doomed the nomination.

What do you think will happen if he appoints a liberal Supreme Court Justice once the GOP controls the Senate?

killtrocity
07-02-2014, 11:27 AM
Hobby Lobby Invested In Numerous Abortion And Contraception Products While Claiming Religious Objection
http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/2014/04/01/hobby-lobby-401k-discovered-to-be-investor-in-numerous-abortion-and-contraception-products-while-claiming-religious-objection/

The Supreme Court Has a Favorite Religion, and That's a Big Problem
http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/The_Hobby_Lobby_Case
considering the source, this is dripping in irony, but the point remains valid

Hobby Lobby Still Covers Vasectomies And Viagra
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/30/hobby-lobby-viagra_n_5543916.html

juliana
07-02-2014, 01:06 PM
The american healthcare stuffs are so weird, I don't understand it at all.

redbreegull
07-02-2014, 01:42 PM
The american healthcare stuffs are so weird, I don't understand it at all.

neither does anyone in america

redbreegull
07-02-2014, 01:43 PM
send scalia to the death panels!

scottytheoneand
07-02-2014, 01:53 PM
Hobby Lobby Still Covers Vasectomies And Viagra
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/30/hobby-lobby-viagra_n_5543916.html

Viagra doesn't kill babies! Mothers do!

null123
07-02-2014, 02:01 PM
Hobby Lobby covers birth control pills too.

scottytheoneand
07-02-2014, 02:18 PM
The american healthcare stuffs are so weird, I don't understand it at all.

The US doesn't have a national health care system for its citizens. if you're old or very poor you get Medicare or Medicaid, which is basically government health insurance to be used to pay medical expenses. If you're a military veteran you can get healthcare from the government run Veterans Administration (military hospitals)

A lot of people get health insurance provided to them by their employers as part of their compensation package.

50 million or more people have no health insurance at all. Which means that they have to pay for any health care expenses on their own at full price.

But the USA has virtually no cost controls. So prices for everything are very high. Drug companies, doctors, hospitals can charge whatever they want. So what happens is that people get ripped off. For example I had an MIR last month. It cost $5000. But my health insurance company contacted the doctor who did the MRI scan and agreed to pay $2500. The rest of the fee was waived. If I had no insurance the doctor would make me pay the $5000 myself.

In the USA Hospitals will sue people to get the money for services. Millions of people without health insurance go bankrupt because they get sick and can't pay the medical bills.

All Obamacare is is a messy bunch of laws that require people who don't have insurance to buy insurance via a government approved private insurance company. The insurance available from those government plans is much much cheaper than what people used to have available in the past. Based on your income you can get a government subsidy every year to pay some or most of the costs of the insurance.

scottytheoneand
07-02-2014, 02:20 PM
del

juliana
07-02-2014, 02:47 PM
In canada, everyone has the same basic healthcare. Checkups, tests, surgeries etc all covered, I think the prices of stuff is set. Very few drugs are covered, they are covered if you are in hospital. Some coverage for physio

Depending on what company you work for you can get extra benefits like; dental coverage, eye glasses, chiro, massage, physio, private hospital room, drug plans up to 100%. This is typically a group plan provided by an insurance company that the company buys into. Sometimes employees pay a bit for the program.

The benefits programs become a reason some employers are better than another and therefore they are competitive at acquiring good employees.


Why can't america just do something like this?

scottytheoneand
07-02-2014, 03:02 PM
The ideological reason is that conservative voters believe that it is COMMUNISM! They think that people in Canada die at home without health care because their socialist system doesn't take care of anybody. Many people actually believe that if the government provides everyone with basic health care that people will stop working, become lazy and that the government will try to kill and enslave everyone.

Since politicians (in both parties) are afraid of conservatives most won't support any kind of Medicare type program for all US citizens.

The practical reason is that for many many years doctors and hospitals lobbied the government against national health care. Today the money to lobby politically against it mostly comes from a small number of billionaires.

juliana
07-02-2014, 03:27 PM
Ya, I have seen the lies. It just boggles my mind that the average american wouldn't be supportive of helping all americans. I mean americans give a lot to charities, they are caring people. It even fits with religion and jesus and stuff. I don't understand why these huge religious groups aren't about healthcare.

redbreegull
07-02-2014, 03:40 PM
Scotty is essentially right at a basic level. In America, conservatives have been very successful at mis-defining communism in the public consciousness as any government policy which takes power away from the elite or corporations in order to aid actual human beings. This is what TOC does all the time when he cries communism socialism communism obamunism! but he cannot actually explain how any obama policy is communist because it's just used as an epithet.

america sucks, sorry rest of the world

redbreegull
07-02-2014, 03:40 PM
It even fits with religion and jesus and stuff. I don't understand why these huge religious groups aren't about healthcare.

christianity in america is kind of unique

Trotskilicious
07-02-2014, 03:43 PM
All Obamacare is is a messy bunch of laws that require people who don't have insurance to buy insurance via a government approved private insurance company. The insurance available from those government plans is much much cheaper than what people used to have available in the past. Based on your income you can get a government subsidy every year to pay some or most of the costs of the insurance.

it also sucks a lot and basically doesn't do anything because the copays are too high and they don't cover anything. like dying of cancer.

which is awesome by the way you guys

i love america

it's the best

Order 66
07-02-2014, 05:50 PM
marine todd died so you could say nonsense like that

redbreegull
07-02-2014, 05:53 PM
rise like lions after slumber
in unvanquishable number,
shake your chains to earth like dew
which in sleep had fallen on you
ye are many– they are few

Trotskilicious
07-02-2014, 06:52 PM
yeah, right, and then what? create a system just as inequitable and corrupt as the last one?

the only solution right now is a global pandemic/asteroid impact

redbreegull
07-02-2014, 08:29 PM
cynicism to the point of defeatism is not a virtue

duovamp
07-02-2014, 09:56 PM
Neither is sucking the turds out of my anus and puking them up my dick but I'm not bitching at you.

Future Boy
07-02-2014, 10:16 PM
Hobby Lobby covers birth control pills too.

doesnt make as great a headline

Future Boy
07-02-2014, 10:25 PM
it also sucks a lot and basically doesn't do anything because the copays are too high and they don't cover anything. like dying of cancer.

which is awesome by the way you guys

i love america

it's the best

no its awesome, it helps like actual people. you know people? yeah those guys, it helps them.

Future Boy
07-02-2014, 10:25 PM
some guy was telling me all about it the other day

Trotskilicious
07-02-2014, 10:27 PM
cynicism to the point of defeatism is not a virtue

Everything is going to burn
we'll all take turns
i'll get mine, too

Trotskilicious
07-02-2014, 10:28 PM
some guy was telling me all about it the other day

i was actually telling you that it's not completely terrible and you're a total fucking cynical piece of shit troll

and it is generally better than nothing

and blaming obama for the health care industry is pretty retarded, in general. sorry starla if you're lurking but yeah

FutureBoy: "i'm a total fucking asshole with absolutely nothing to contribute to any discussion, ever"

Trotskilicious
07-02-2014, 10:30 PM
i mean other than when you pop up to say "i was right" just because, like bammy, you never actually have any specifics.

Future Boy
07-02-2014, 10:42 PM
well, its politics

juliana
07-02-2014, 11:34 PM
I read that hobby lobby use to cover contraceptives until it was forced by obama. So they are saying it isn't about religion just going against obamacare.

Trotskilicious
07-02-2014, 11:57 PM
i like your choice of words there "forced by obama"

fess up, you vote ford

juliana
07-03-2014, 12:41 AM
Thats how "they" felt.

I don't vote actually. Also, ford isn't a conservative, he is just a white trash crack addict. FYI democratic party is more similar to our conservative party. Obama isn't liberal enough for canada.

The Omega Concern
07-03-2014, 07:53 PM
Right Wing court agrees that corporations are people and if you have a Uterus your boss can decide whether you get health care or not.

http://live.scotusblog.com/Event/Live_blog_of_opinions__June_30_2014#


BFD. People can still get all the contraceptives they want. So some company doesn't have to pay for Suzy to slut around...oh fuck, to the liberal pussy statist cocksuckers, I guess that's blasphemy. fucking losers.

redbreegull
07-03-2014, 08:02 PM
BFD. People can still get all the contraceptives they want. So some company doesn't have to pay for Suzy to slut around...oh fuck, to the liberal pussy statist cocksuckers, I guess that's blasphemy. fucking losers.

you're a disgusting piece of shit

redbreegull
07-03-2014, 08:02 PM
I'm trying to think of how you could have written something more hateful and sexist and just fucking morally disgusting

redbreegull
07-03-2014, 08:03 PM
but damn it's just not coming

Trotskilicious
07-03-2014, 08:05 PM
it's breathtaking

reprise85
07-03-2014, 08:08 PM
wtf omega concern, i thought you were just a weirdo but you're actually a piece of shit too.

The Omega Concern
07-03-2014, 08:23 PM
I don't placate to the left that wishes to crush dissent.


This ruling however is placating to the right. It's not some huge win for them and yet, compared to what's happening in the world right now, this gets major play and the left get bent. what-ever.

The Omega Concern
07-03-2014, 08:26 PM
you're a disgusting piece of shit



You're an overly sensitive douchebag. If capable of it, go fuck yourself.


If sex without the ultimate consequence is such a priority in one's life, why should anyone else pay for it?


I know that question is too much for indoctrinated leftist who define compassion through the lens of a government handout, but that's because y'all been brainwashed by the collective.

snap out of it.

Order 66
07-03-2014, 08:33 PM
gonna have to go with omega on this one

redbreegull
07-03-2014, 08:35 PM
TOC were you born in a barn? were you not taught even a modicum of decency growing up? you are a shameless hateful privileged bastard. dissent? the only thing anyone here wants to quash is your misogynistic tiny brain you knuckle dragging bigot. you understand nothing because you have no sense of empathy or caring for anyone whose life situation is not identical to yours.

pavementtune
07-03-2014, 08:37 PM
Suzy is slutslutslutting around
All by herself
Pete won't paypaypay for that


NetphoriaRapHaikus

redbreegull
07-03-2014, 08:38 PM
this literally has nothing to do with having sex either, but way to put yourself out there as a total woman-hating troglodyte. nice slut shaming, you feckless fuck.

Trotskilicious
07-03-2014, 08:45 PM
omega are you having that much diffculty seeing the way you framed your dissent is <i>perhaps</I> not the best way to phrase it

although i fully support you being free to say how you feel, i think it's better to know up front rather than have some snake in the grass cut their words when they really want to call these women sluts and call liberals...what was it again *peers over glasses* "cocksuckers" and "pussies"

Trotskilicious
07-03-2014, 08:46 PM
hey fuzzyroses, just want to congratulate your hero omega concern here. he's got a lot of wisdom, don't he?

pavementtune
07-03-2014, 08:46 PM
It's nothing new though.
Don't remember her name, some well-known American tv lady and I got confused when TOC kept referring to her as "guy."
Turned out she has short hair and/or is a lesbian, therefore a guy.
Lost cause.

null123
07-03-2014, 09:02 PM
doesnt make as great a headline

This whole case just disgusts me.

I could give a fuck about Hobby Lobby's "rights" but listening to men crowing on in righteous indignation about birth control access and misogyny makes me sick. Men have always had more to gain from birth control than women ever have.
Also if I see one more article discussing the human "need" to have non-procreative sex I stg

redbreegull
07-03-2014, 09:17 PM
del: nevermind not worth trying to talk to charmbag about feminism

juliana
07-03-2014, 09:34 PM
Does hobby lobby provide amazing matt leave or daycare? Do they pay for tube tying?

redbreegull
07-03-2014, 09:40 PM
a huge percentage of women on contraceptives use them for purposes other than pregnancy prevention. I know a woman whose menstrual cycle is so crippling she would literally be unemployable if not for birth control.

Hobby Lobby is not coming from a place of devout belief obviously because 1) they own investments in contraceptive and abortion-related products and 2) they had no problem with these medicines until Obamacare.

this is solely about destroying Obama and just not giving two shits if the cost is access to affordable and safe healthcare for women

null123
07-03-2014, 09:44 PM
Hobby Lobby covers birth control pills.

redbreegull
07-03-2014, 09:48 PM
Hobby Lobby covers birth control pills.

thanks I never would have known that if not for you and every conservative on my facebook feed posting about it for the last two days

juliana
07-03-2014, 09:52 PM
a huge percentage of women on contraceptives use them for purposes other than pregnancy prevention. I know a woman whose menstrual cycle is so crippling she would literally be unemployable if not for birth control.

Hobby Lobby is not coming from a place of devout belief obviously because 1) they own investments in contraceptive and abortion-related products and 2) they had no problem with these medicines until Obamacare.

this is solely about destroying Obama and just not giving two shits if the cost is access to affordable and safe healthcare for women

Well ya, but I just wondered how serious they were about babies. I mean they can't run around yelling about abortion if they are not interested in paying for matt leave or daycare.

If they don't that should be also publicized: They don't care about working mothers or babies either.

null123
07-03-2014, 09:52 PM
a huge percentage of women on contraceptives use them for purposes other than pregnancy prevention. I know a woman whose menstrual cycle is so crippling she would literally be unemployable if not for birth control.

Why mention this if you are aware that your friend can be employed by Hobby Lobby and be covered for contraceptives that would solve this medical issue for her?

redbreegull
07-03-2014, 09:57 PM
yeah it's just really not worth it engaging with you, believe me I have learned my lesson in the past

null123
07-03-2014, 10:09 PM
Like is it just me or does that make no sense? Can someone else help me out here?

Trotskilicious
07-03-2014, 10:22 PM
charmbag i think it's much less philosophical and much more some other kind of issue that makes you take what should be allies and makes them enemies

i understand RBG is annoying but being upset that men are upset about the hobby lobby case is bewildering and inexplicable

pavementtune
07-03-2014, 10:22 PM
I'm kinda lost, too.

> rbg: menstruation etc. birth control pills
> charms: they cover birth control pills
> rbg: I know, not worth discussing it with you

What are you two arguing about?

Trotskilicious
07-03-2014, 10:23 PM
i mean beyond the fact that ultimately the outrage should be about the incredibly dangerous precedent this sets

Trotskilicious
07-03-2014, 10:24 PM
but yeah i'm not sure what they are arguing about, i just think it's really weird how charms is mad that men are *peers over glasses* "crowing on in righteous indignation about birth control access and misogyny"

because yeah, fuck em right

Trotskilicious
07-03-2014, 10:28 PM
i mean to be honest, bringing up that they do cover birth control pills as if this makes it okay is just fucking gobsmacking

i mean, i KNOW you understand the implications of this ruling. who fucking cares about the specifics of hobby lobby what about all the other corporations who can now line item veto coverage because the SCOTUS says so

i mean correct me if i'm wrong. lord knows i'm dying to be wrong about this.

reprise85
07-03-2014, 10:34 PM
Yeah that line is what is confusing to me.

I mean is Charmbag saying men are saying that while ultimately still treating women like shit?

It's like, if you want the world to improve for women w/r/t misogyny, how is men "crowing" over issues such as this not a necessary part of that, or at least a good sign? What should men do instead, mind their own business? Quietly support the women in their lives? Own their own misogyny and hang themselves? I don't get it.

null123
07-03-2014, 10:39 PM
charmbag i think it's much less philosophical and much more some other kind of issue that makes you take what should be allies and makes them enemies

i understand RBG is annoying but being upset that men are upset about the hobby lobby case is bewildering and inexplicable

I know you feel this way but to me it is not that simple.
I don't agree with the terms the entire conversation is happening on. I'm not sure who these allies are supposed to be? I don't have liberal sexual politics.

On the conservative front, I've been annoyed at the smug insincerity of people pretending that it's a "free country" so if an employer doesn't cover certain medical costs people can just "go buy them somewhere else". When something is not affordable it might as well be banned. I get that. There are layers here.

null123
07-03-2014, 10:40 PM
I'll spell one thing out for you and you can have fun with that: I literally think that if people (including women) don't want to get pregnant, they shouldn't have sexual intercourse.

Trotskilicious
07-03-2014, 10:41 PM
yeah there's layers i just...i know you're not a sexual liberal, and i'm not either

However, I do get the impression that men talking feminism and misogyny bothers you full stop. I think that's why I'm just kind of Gahhh and it's not just about this thing

you were talking about the "terms" of it, and breaking it down you're right about that. about how it's about morning after pills and libs are throwing this fucking fit about women's rights

because this precedent is horrifying and it implicates all of our rights

juliana
07-03-2014, 10:41 PM
This whole case just disgusts me.

I could give a fuck about Hobby Lobby's "rights" but listening to men crowing on in righteous indignation about birth control access and misogyny makes me sick. Men have always had more to gain from birth control than women ever have.
Also if I see one more article discussing the human "need" to have non-procreative sex I stg

Men are actually pissed because they want to have sex and not cause they care about womens issues.

I think.

null123
07-03-2014, 10:43 PM
yeah there's layers i just...i know you're not a sexual liberal, and i'm not either

However, I do get the impression that men talking feminism and misogyny bothers you full stop. I think that's why I'm just kind of Gahhh and it's not just about this thing


No, I just don't buy the sincerity of men's concern for women's wellbeing when 99% of the time you're all talking about how it's "wrong to shame sluts" and "women should be able to fuck me consequence-free. girl power"

null123
07-03-2014, 10:43 PM
Men are actually pissed because they want to have sex and not cause they care about womens issues.

I think.

^

Trotskilicious
07-03-2014, 10:50 PM
FIRST OF ALL: who the FUCK is "you all" when you quote my post. I don't think I have EVER used the phrase "slut shaming" and please. I'm some kind of lothario Casanova. Come on, what kind of character am i in your imagination?

don't type cast every single man and think their motives are ultimately duplicitous. like i said before that falls more into the issues category than philosophy

i mean i'm sure you're right about a lot of it, self-interest is a motivator. sexually liberating women is more sexy sex for all men everywhere right? (no)

back to the point:

now a religiously oriented company, like the one i temped at that had prayer meetings, can basically strike out anything they want. i mean, if i understand this ruling correctly, which i hope i don't.

but then there's this whole aspect of the oversexualization of our culture and why modern people feel like they have a god damn right to fuck as much as they want because freedom and condoms.

i'm really not disagreeing with you about how if you don't want kids you shouldn't be fucking. nah, that's fair.

but this ruling is much bigger than that

much much bigger

pavementtune
07-03-2014, 10:55 PM
I'll spell one thing out for you and you can have fun with that: I literally think that if people (including women) don't want to get pregnant, they shouldn't have sexual intercourse.


Outside of some religious groupings this is simply not what the world looks like.
According to this general statement what "people" shouldn't do, you want the sex for babbies only doctrine for the entire planet, or am I misunderstanding you

A couple (married or not) lives together but should stay abstinent when they don't want to populate this planet some more (or can't afford to) instead of using contraception?

null123
07-03-2014, 10:56 PM
FIRST OF ALL: who the FUCK is "you all" when you quote my post. I don't think I have EVER used the phrase "slut shaming" and please. I'm some kind of lothario Casanova. Come on, what kind of character am i in your imagination?

don't type cast every single man and think their motives are ultimately duplicitous. like i said before that falls more into the issues category than philosophy

i mean i'm sure you're right about a lot of it, self-interest is a motivator. sexually liberating women is more sexy sex for all men everywhere right? (no)

back to the point:

now a religiously oriented company, like the one i temped at that had prayer meetings, can basically strike out anything they want. i mean, if i understand this ruling correctly, which i hope i don't.

but then there's this whole aspect of the oversexualization of our culture and why modern people feel like they have a god damn right to fuck as much as they want because freedom and condoms.

i'm really not disagreeing with you about how if you don't want kids you shouldn't be fucking. nah, that's fair.

but this ruling is much bigger than that

much much bigger
I'm not implicating you specifically, I'm just commenting on the movements of the male left as a group.

And I said, though perhaps too vaguely, that I am not defending a corporation's right to dictate anything be it for monetary or dubious "ethical" concerns. But most of the taglines I've seen have been men posturing about women's rights and acting shocked that Hobby Lobby covers vasectomies when if they knew the basic facts of this case it would be clear that there is no double standard at work there. That's what I choose to comment on because it's boring to preach to the choir about how our economic system is evil at every level.

null123
07-03-2014, 10:58 PM
Outside of some religious groupings this is simply not what the world looks like.
According to this general statement what "people" shouldn't do you want the sex for babbies only doctrine for the entire planet, or am I misunderstanding you

The world is a pretty terrible place so maybe we shouldn't aspire to the lowest common denominator.

juliana
07-03-2014, 10:59 PM
I am trying to think of a way other than abortion type stuff could see the same prob.

Someone on my FB was talking about aids drugs. Although a religious group could say they are against gays, AIDS isn't a disease that affects only gay people so how can you get around that? You can't say then no drugs for gays because that is discrimination.

I think a religious company could deny medical pot. Maybe even blood transfusions.

null123
07-03-2014, 11:02 PM
Maybe Christian Scientists could deny all medical coverage. Scientologists could deny psych drugs or vaccines or whatever. But yeah I think mostly we're gonna be tossing the ball back and forth over the same issues we always are, just in a different court.

Future Boy
07-03-2014, 11:04 PM
now a religiously oriented company, like the one i temped at that had prayer meetings, can basically strike out anything they want. i mean, if i understand this ruling correctly, which i hope i don't.

they can sue on religious grounds, they cant just stop providing anything mandated by law

pavementtune
07-03-2014, 11:04 PM
The world is a pretty terrible place so maybe we shouldn't aspire to the lowest common denominator.
No, we shouldn't aspire to that.
We shouldn't aspire to all couples raising 5 or 6 children, either.The world is hardly under-populated.


(And two people loving each other and being human by also loving to have sex is nothing I'd call "the lowest common denominator.")

Future Boy
07-03-2014, 11:06 PM
acting shocked that Hobby Lobby covers vasectomies when if they knew the basic facts of this case it would be clear that there is no double standard at work there.
that doesnt drive donations though

reprise85
07-03-2014, 11:09 PM
So seriously, I'm just a little shocked. Charmbag, you think sexual intercourse should only be for procreation or for someone who is ready to procreate?

Is other sex okay as long as it can't make you pregnant?

Future Boy
07-03-2014, 11:13 PM
So seriously, I'm just a little shocked. Charmbag, you think sexual intercourse should only be for procreation or for someone who is ready to procreate?

I just think shes saying that if you really dont want to get pregnant and dont have bc of any kind then just keep it in yo pants, it wont kill you.

but if you dont really care, then game on, the more the merrier.

pavementtune
07-03-2014, 11:13 PM
Ready to, and are suited to be parents, and have an income to raise a child, and have nice illness-free genes they want to pass on.
No sex for people who have an inherited illness.

Future Boy
07-03-2014, 11:13 PM
i could be misreading that though

null123
07-03-2014, 11:21 PM
I just think shes saying that if you really dont want to get pregnant and dont have bc of any kind then just keep it in yo pants, it wont kill you.

but if you dont really care, then game on, the more the merrier.

Sort of. However, I also think birth control has had damaging social impact. I don't know if the question is asking what my personal ethics are or how I would set policy. Like my more strident and personal answer goes further but I don't run the world so we don't have to worry about it.

D.
07-03-2014, 11:25 PM
Men are actually pissed because they want to have sex and not cause they care about womens issues.

I think.
extremely short-sighted but not unexpected given you posted it

Mayfuck
07-03-2014, 11:49 PM
I thought that was an esty post for some reason.

Mayfuck
07-04-2014, 12:01 AM
I think this is an issue "family values" would solve point blank if it weren't abused and manipulated as a political football so much.

juliana
07-04-2014, 07:37 AM
extremely short-sighted but not unexpected given you posted it

I was explaining what charmbag was trying to say because no one understood are you unable to follow the thread, Droolio?

reprise85
07-04-2014, 08:36 AM
Sort of. However, I also think birth control has had damaging social impact. I don't know if the question is asking what my personal ethics are or how I would set policy. Like my more strident and personal answer goes further but I don't run the world so we don't have to worry about it.

I was asking about your personal ethics.

But I'm also interested in how birth control has damaging social impact.

I mean obviously the bottom line is if you don't have bc and don't want kids you shouldn't have sex. But since we do have BC, and sex is fun - and yes, a natural part of human existence - why should people be denied it? Also, this denial of sexual intercourse is weird just because all kinds of other sex would not produce babies, like oral/anal in hetero or homo relationships, and I don't see how those types are morally any different than intercourse except no babies.

Bread Regal
07-04-2014, 08:58 AM
because this precedent is horrifying and it implicates all of our rights

this is the crux of it. it's shortsighted to say that this ruling only affects emergency contraception and that's it. HHS already allowed non-profits to opt out of all birth control without giving much of a fight at all, and now there's this ruling. A lot of bad precedents being established here.

redbreegull
07-04-2014, 11:06 AM
i understand RBG is annoying but being upset that men are upset about the hobby lobby case is bewildering and inexplicable

thnx buddy

No, I just don't buy the sincerity of men's concern for women's wellbeing when 99% of the time you're all talking about how it's "wrong to shame sluts" and "women should be able to fuck me consequence-free. girl power"

this is my attempt at answering you without flying off the handle, because you tend to be extremely inflammatory in my perception. What I see is that you have picked up an unimportant detail in something I said which I meant in response to a specific person, and you are trying to show me how don't know what I am talking about by siding with the oppressor...

I think at some level you honestly believe men cannot be sincere allies to women, and I'm sure you have compelling reasons in your own life to think this way. However, to me, this is just straight prejudiced and although men-hating has significantly less reflexive harm than misogyny, it's still not justifiable and it's impossible for me to fit this concept into the framework of feminism. It seems like your attitude is that finding females sexually desirable but also wanting to elevate female social standing presents an insurmountable conflict of interest, which I think is dead wrong.

In any civil rights movement, allies from outside the oppressed group are absolutely essential to the cause both because they hold systemic power and because it's essential for the rhetoric of the movement to be able to appeal to the mainstream. It's just bewildering to me that you want to put people down for being interested in feminism for the reason that they don't have vaginas. Feminism has a serious PR problem mainly for the reason that a lot of ignorant white men mostly, think it's an assault on the rights of men and the purpose is to subjugate them to females. I am honestly not sure exactly what your view of the overarching feminist ideology is, I've heard you describe yourself as radical feminist, but I think it's fair to say most people who identify as feminists believe feminism is about instituting equality. The way you argue about women's issues is very divisive, and although I am trying not to be presumptuous about your views, I will say I think it's understandable that you come off as not being interested in equality, but in scorning men, which in my eyes is the most damaging thing a feminist can do because it plays directly into the conception of feminists that makes old white power-brokering men hate and fear the idea.

I think your view of sex and the way you think people should have it is kind of unrealistic and out of touch, but also ultimately damaging. It's a lot like a high school school sex-ed curriculum. Being sexually conservative is fine and I'm all for people living their lives anyway they want. I'm not for pretending sex isn't as natural a part of life as eating and breathing, that sex is innately bad or damaging to one party, that seeking pleasure for its own sake is evil, that sex is a luxury, that sex isn't an important component of mental and emotional (and even physical) health for some individuals, or that the shaming of female sexual expression isn't a real and serious problem.

null123
07-04-2014, 01:21 PM
I didn't read that

I was asking about your personal ethics.

But I'm also interested in how birth control has damaging social impact.

I mean obviously the bottom line is if you don't have bc and don't want kids you shouldn't have sex. But since we do have BC, and sex is fun - and yes, a natural part of human existence - why should people be denied it? Also, this denial of sexual intercourse is weird just because all kinds of other sex would not produce babies, like oral/anal in hetero or homo relationships, and I don't see how those types are morally any different than intercourse except no babies.
I just woke up but I'll try to do justice to my position in a little while. fwiw I didn't invent it, it's the historical Christian view so I know there are better explanations out there.

pavementtune
07-04-2014, 02:11 PM
Even Christians moved on.
If you want to stick to historical views you have to denounce nonprocreative sexuality, so homosexuality as a whole.
I guess you're not a friend of same-sex marriage, either.

And what about infertility or couples over 50? Is nonprocreative sex allowed then.

How does it work by the way to base your opinions on historical Christian views and be a feminist at the same time?

hnibos
07-04-2014, 02:20 PM
:apopcorn:

juliana
07-04-2014, 02:26 PM
Sex in the bible is okay within a marriage. It ISN'T just for procreation.

http://www.openbible.info/topics/sex_in_marriage

juliana
07-04-2014, 02:35 PM
The reason we are on the earth is to procreate. Sex important in the human experience beyond procreation. Many religions believes this as well and it even says in the bible.

The exploding boy
07-04-2014, 05:12 PM
Even Christians moved on.
If you want to stick to historical views you have to denounce nonprocreative sexuality, so homosexuality as a whole.
I guess you're not a friend of same-sex marriage, either.

And what about infertility or couples over 50? Is nonprocreative sex allowed then.

How does it work by the way to base your opinions on historical Christian views and be a feminist at the same time?

It doesn't.

In fact its nearly impossible to be affiliated with any religion and be a feminist. Even if one doesn't share all the beliefs of their religion's doctrine, at best you're an enabler.

That being said I don't have in depth knowledge of all religions so there is possibly some that treat women as equals.... or better yet don't ever make the distinction. But even some of the more progressive religions like Buddhism still are plenty misogynistic.

I'm sure those in charge of Hobby lobby have NEVER EVER had sex without the express purpose of having children. I imagine they all have families of like 20 children.

The reason we are on the earth is to procreate.

Well yeah except you know.......that stopped being a necessity a LONG LONG time ago. If you reproduce nowadays in the western world I'm pretty much of the cliche opinion that what the fuck is wrong with you?

Trotskilicious
07-04-2014, 05:14 PM
that's a pretty stupid, circular reason

Trotskilicious
07-04-2014, 05:16 PM
I'm not implicating you specifically, I'm just commenting on the movements of the male left as a group.

well i still think that's pretty shameless stereotyping, even if i'm not implicated

is it true for some, even many? probably...but c'maaaan

null123
07-04-2014, 06:10 PM
^ I said "as a group" for a reason. Politics doesn't operate on the individual level. Do you worry about "stereotyping" republicans? No, you just get on with it because it's appropriate for the purposes of this discussion

And fuck guys this post I'm writing is getting really long-winded because I don't know where to start on such a big topic. I didn't mean to turn this thread into an interview just because I have backwoods opinions.

hnibos
07-04-2014, 06:12 PM
It's ok, I'll read the post.

null123
07-04-2014, 06:46 PM
First of all, fertility is still important. Overpopulation is not what ails planet earth, you're all thinking of greed. We have enough food and space to provide for the people of the world several times over. The West is barely reproducing at replacement rate at this point. Fascinating how the richest nations are committing suicide in this way.

I was asking about your personal ethics.

But I'm also interested in how birth control has damaging social impact.

I mean obviously the bottom line is if you don't have bc and don't want kids you shouldn't have sex. But since we do have BC, and sex is fun - and yes, a natural part of human existence - why should people be denied it? Also, this denial of sexual intercourse is weird just because all kinds of other sex would not produce babies, like oral/anal in hetero or homo relationships, and I don't see how those types are morally any different than intercourse except no babies.

I'm going to preface this by saying that you asked for my opinion, so I'm not going to write a thoroughly referenced article covering the breadth of topics that inform such a huge subject and this is going to be a hopelessly insufficient explanation but, sorry. I think the Catholic (and Orthodox) view of sexuality is the most humane, healthy and elegant idea imaginable. I'm not going to pretend that it's not somewhat exotic to me still, because I come from the same culture as you all. But I have come to believe this is the right way to be.

Reprise, you write that sex is fun, but I know you must also understand that there are many more dimensions to sex than just entertainment. There is a reason it has to be regarded with more gravity than going to Six Flags. Like all human appetites, sex has to be tempered or it becomes unhealthy. It should be understood relative to its purpose, just like when food becomes too divorced from its primary function as fuel for the body, it causes physical and psychological problems. Sex can become excessive just like eating or drinking, but because it is so fundamentally social in nature I believe it is even more destructive when out of balance.

You also speak of the naturalness of sex and question why people should "be denied" it. I agree sex is natural, but if naturalness is your concern, why do you endorse a practice that untethers it from its equally natural counterpart ie children? How can we expect that such a change would not have a profound impact on society? I'm also not advocating that people be denied sex, I am saying people should have sex when it is actually appropriate to do so. However, going without sex is a perfectly okay way to be as well, and can free people up to focus on other things. This is why some people choose to live celibate lives. People are not entitled to sex, surely you must agree. To me that is the mentality of rapists, but it is a common attitude in our society today.

To get into specifics, I'm gonna refer specifically to the Catholic byline on this issue. Catholics believe that sex has two purposes, the first being procreation, the second being the forming and deepening of the emotional bond between a couple. Catholics are asked to engage in sex only if they are "open to the possibility of forming new life", even if infertility etc would make such a possibility very unlikely. Natural Family Planning is approved by the church, but when you think about it it works out because it simply reinforces the importance of self-control and moderation when it comes to sex. If you want to know more details about this type of thing, it's an easy one to quickly Google for.

We live in a time when people compartmentalize sex as much as possible so that we can all indulge in it as much as possible. The consequences of this can be seen in the breakdown of families, the proliferation of pornography, countless unwanted pregnancies (and the ensuing psychological effect this has on women), the further atomization of every human being in our society, greater power in the hands of capitalists who now also own women as a class of workers (not fully possible before widespread use of birth control and abortion) and who have successfully devalued the family to a status below personal success and """freedom""". This is a great way to demoralize and destabilize entire nations. The view of women as sex dispensers used to be limited to prostitutes, now we are all caught up in it. Gender roles in general are in flux, but for women and girls this has mostly meant a self-concept centered on satisfying men's now shameless, uninhibited sexual impulses. Older women used to have a place in culture as mothers and grandmothers, now they are some of the most invisible, dehumanized and trivialized members of society. I could go on and on.

I'm not interested in debating this per se because believe me, I know that everyone disagrees. If you want me to elaborate on some points I will though, I realize this might not explain much.

duovamp
07-04-2014, 06:49 PM
This turned into the dumbest goddam bullshit thread ever, thanks to Trollbag. 2/10

So women controlling their ability to be pregnant is bad because men are not to be trusted.

Also Christian logic for procreation-only sex is fine.

If this were order 66 we'd all be robbling quietly. I feel like I'm Michael Bluth and you're all the other cast in Arrested Development and you can't help yourselves to respond to obvious trolling from Charmy and TOC every fucking time they post.

Trotskilicious
07-04-2014, 06:58 PM
Chams, republican is a belief system that i mock, accurately.

Male is not a belief system.

That is all

null123
07-04-2014, 07:06 PM
Trotsky, I said male leftists (should ******* moderate liberals too)

null123
07-04-2014, 07:08 PM
Also please spare me your tears you've called me a cunt and a "mean lesbian" over the years, let's not do this.

redbreegull
07-04-2014, 07:15 PM
today I found out that male leftism is an ideology

pavementtune
07-04-2014, 07:17 PM
obvious trolling from Charmy and TOC every fucking time they post.
Since when is charms a troll? Or TOC. I'm not good at spotting trolls, I really think both are mostly serious.

. We have enough food and space to provide for the people of the world several times over.
3 times the current world population would fuck the environment so badly that you can say goodbye to breathing without a mask.
As it is over 700 million people don't have access to clean water. Hurray, let's have 7 babbies each! Much better than using birth control. Because ancient christianity said so.
We'd be fucked without the plague already.

null123
07-04-2014, 07:19 PM
I'm deadass

juliana
07-04-2014, 07:20 PM
I like how exploding boy or whatever his name is read only the first sentence of my 2-3 sentence post and then made a comment.

Bread Regal
07-04-2014, 07:31 PM
you two were made for eachother

juliana
07-04-2014, 07:38 PM
I don't think charmbag was saying anything troll like.

I don't really agree with the whole men care about women's issues because it helps them out. I do think that some men have sold women that sexual freedom is the ultimate feminism, it happens in the porn industry or whatever.

However, I do agree that sex isn't respected as it should be. And I understand the argument that maybe without birth control there would be more respect for the act because it held more severe consequences.

I find in my life, the casualness of sex these days has really ruined romance. Call me old fashioned but I would like to form a friendship before I am comfortable to fuck but I have found that I am ridiculed by men for thinking this way.

Maybe I have bad luck with dudes, but I see it as a cultural shift. Has it all become fast food sex & fast food people?

redbreegull
07-04-2014, 07:42 PM
We have enough food and space to provide for the people of the world several times over.

I actually looked up the physical space thing recently because I made this argument to someone. If space were evenly distributed to all human beings, everyone would have plenty of room! Actually no, it turns out that is not correct once your factor in the enormous amount of land on Earth which cannot sustain humans i.e. mountains, deserts, etc., each of the 7 billion of us would have a tiny amount of space

Trotskilicious
07-04-2014, 09:56 PM
Also please spare me your tears you've called me a cunt and a "mean lesbian" over the years, let's not do this.

i was very wrong

Trotskilicious
07-04-2014, 10:03 PM
I find in my life, the casualness of sex these days has really ruined romance. Call me old fashioned but I would like to form a friendship before I am comfortable to fuck but I have found that I am ridiculed by men for thinking this way.

Maybe I have bad luck with dudes, but I see it as a cultural shift. Has it all become fast food sex & fast food people?

in my experience i've had the exact same pressure from women

Trotskilicious
07-04-2014, 10:04 PM
sometimes i think it's this pressure that both genders do to themselves & each other like it's some kind of delusion of a social norm created by popular culture

SEX
OOOH
BEER
FUN
LOUD
FUN
SEX
BEER
LIQUOR
OMG
LOL
FUN

reprise85
07-04-2014, 10:24 PM
I'm going to preface this by saying that you asked for my opinion, so I'm not going to write a thoroughly referenced article covering the breadth of topics that inform such a huge subject and this is going to be a hopelessly insufficient explanation but, sorry. I think the Catholic (and Orthodox) view of sexuality is the most humane, healthy and elegant idea imaginable. I'm not going to pretend that it's not somewhat exotic to me still, because I come from the same culture as you all. But I have come to believe this is the right way to be.

I think the biggest issue I have with this position is the inherent moral superiority that it conveys. You obviously believe in universal moral principles more than I do, and believe that sex only for procreation or as some kind of relationship enhancer is the only way it is justifiable. But many people do not agree, and saying that one way is the right way to be for all of the people on the earth really just blows my mind. It may be a healthy and elegant way to be or aspire to, but I'd argue that it is not humane. This coming from someone who is not sexually active and would definitely only be if it was in the context of a relationship/"relationship enhancement" - but just because I want to enhance my relationship with a partner doesn't/shouldn't mean I am ready to have a child or even ever want to.


Reprise, you write that sex is fun, but I know you must also understand that there are many more dimensions to sex than just entertainment. There is a reason it has to be regarded with more gravity than going to Six Flags. Like all human appetites, sex has to be tempered or it becomes unhealthy. It should be understood relative to its purpose, just like when food becomes too divorced from its primary function as fuel for the body, it causes physical and psychological problems. Sex can become excessive just like eating or drinking, but because it is so fundamentally social in nature I believe it is even more destructive when out of balance.

You also speak of the naturalness of sex and question why people should "be denied" it. I agree sex is natural, but if naturalness is your concern, why do you endorse a practice that untethers it from its equally natural counterpart ie children? How can we expect that such a change would not have a profound impact on society? I'm also not advocating that people be denied sex, I am saying people should have sex when it is actually appropriate to do so. However, going without sex is a perfectly okay way to be as well, and can free people up to focus on other things. This is why some people choose to live celibate lives. People are not entitled to sex, surely you must agree. To me that is the mentality of rapists, but it is a common attitude in our society today.


No one is entitled to sex from another person, of course not. But when two parties want to have sex, that has nothing to do with entitlement. People have been having sex at inopportune times forever. People have alternate forms of sex when that is their preference. Are you saying all alternate forms of sex are immoral, because they don't result in possible childbirth and are therefore unnatural and divorced from the natural consequences of spilling sperm inside of a female's body?

The modern world is completely divorced from natural consequences for many, many things. We don't die from small wounds getting infected in general. In the past we had to chop off people's arms when they got infected. Now we use medicines, some of them completely synthetic. Because we are altering the course of natural death, is that an affront to morality? Why is this standard different for controlling birth? Controlling life and controlling death in this way are morally equivalent, imo.


To get into specifics, I'm gonna refer specifically to the Catholic byline on this issue. Catholics believe that sex has two purposes, the first being procreation, the second being the forming and deepening of the emotional bond between a couple. Catholics are asked to engage in sex only if they are "open to the possibility of forming new life", even if infertility etc would make such a possibility very unlikely. Natural Family Planning is approved by the church, but when you think about it it works out because it simply reinforces the importance of self-control and moderation when it comes to sex. If you want to know more details about this type of thing, it's an easy one to quickly Google for.


But look, basically you are saying that sex is okay as long as you don't take birth control and are open to forming new life, but natural family planning is attempting to control conception in the same way any other kind of birth control is, it's just not as good at it. So if the sin is in attempting to control the natural consequences of sex, I don't see the difference. You can argue about BC being unhealthy and of course it can't be good to trick your body into thinking you're pregnant all the time. However, morally, I don't see how these two methods are really any different besides pills or procedures being "unnatural".

We live in a time when people compartmentalize sex as much as possible so that we can all indulge in it as much as possible. The consequences of this can be seen in the breakdown of families, the proliferation of pornography, countless unwanted pregnancies (and the ensuing psychological effect this has on women), the further atomization of every human being in our society, greater power in the hands of capitalists who now also own women as a class of workers (not fully possible before widespread use of birth control and abortion) and who have successfully devalued the family to a status below personal success and """freedom""". This is a great way to demoralize and destabilize entire nations. The view of women as sex dispensers used to be limited to prostitutes, now we are all caught up in it. Gender roles in general are in flux, but for women and girls this has mostly meant a self-concept centered on satisfying men's now shameless, uninhibited sexual impulses. Older women used to have a place in culture as mothers and grandmothers, now they are some of the most invisible, dehumanized and trivialized members of society. I could go on and on.


I agree that the proliferation of degrading pornography on the internet is alarming.

We might just disagree about this, but I don't think society is any different than it has always been. People have been having sex for fun for ever. People have been subjugating each other forever. Women have always been treated like shit on a macro-level (outside of their families). Children have always been "more immoral" than their parent's generation, and the world is always going to shit according to the elders of any period of time, etc etc. That's the human story and it will always and has always been the same since societies have existed. I personally, and I know most people would disagree with this, don't see family as the obvious highest moral imperative. But I look around and, despite what society shows as success and personal freedom being the most important thing, everyone I know is having babies. Same as it ever was. I would say women who choose not to have babies are looked at as outcasts more than women who are all about their families.


I'm not interested in debating this per se because believe me, I know that everyone disagrees. If you want me to elaborate on some points I will though, I realize this might not explain much.

Charmbag, I have no hostility towards your views but I do think they are unnecessarily and arbitrarily specific in a way that is exclusionary and more harmful than you realize. I don't think the state of sexuality in our society is anywhere near ideal but I also don't know what ideal would even look like besides "have sex if you want to and can do so safely and don't if you don't want to".

null123
07-04-2014, 10:27 PM
Yeah, we just have really different worldviews so we'd be here all day trying to bridge the gap.

Trotskilicious
07-04-2014, 10:30 PM
ah you ruined it

whatever

ASTEROID IMPACT CAN'T WAIT HERE WE GO

null123
07-04-2014, 10:31 PM
^ ?

Trotskilicious
07-04-2014, 10:32 PM
i was impressed with reprises counterpoint and i wished to express it with a gif from the movie Friday

null123
07-04-2014, 10:32 PM
I mean shit, do you wanna see a back-and-forth multiquote megathread? I dunao mannnnnnnnnnnnnnn

reprise85
07-04-2014, 10:36 PM
it's cool

i've been working all day and my brain is kind of fried anyway and i dont have the kind of chunks of time like i used to to get into a thread with someone else for a few hours.

reprise85
07-04-2014, 10:38 PM
also tmi, my period won't stop and it's been like 2-3 weeks and im starting to go insane. yes i know i need to go to a doctor.

null123
07-04-2014, 10:39 PM
They'll prob tell you to go on birth control

juliana
07-04-2014, 10:45 PM
also tmi, my period won't stop and it's been like 2-3 weeks and im starting to go insane. yes i know i need to go to a doctor.

What the fuck! Does this happen every month?

reprise85
07-04-2014, 10:46 PM
This is the first time it's ever happened.

I don't want to go on birth control mostly because I don't want to worry about yet another medication causing complications. I'll try other things. Mostly I just want to know it's just stress and not cancer or something.

juliana
07-04-2014, 10:48 PM
That is serious shit! Go to the doctor tomorrow.

reprise85
07-04-2014, 10:48 PM
I was thinking I was a bit late but I'm not sure, I was prob 1-2 weeks late and now it won't fucking stop.

reprise85
07-04-2014, 10:49 PM
I can't get an appointment with an OBGYN tomorrow unless I go to emergency and I'm not doing that.

I'm going to call my regular doctor on Monday and either go there or have her give me somebody and try to get an appointment in the next few days.

juliana
07-04-2014, 10:52 PM
Good plan. Hope it is all cool and no major probs.

reprise85
07-04-2014, 10:53 PM
Thanks

I mean either it's some kind of benign hormone thing/stress in which case it's not dangerous

or it's a cyst or something fairly harmless.

or it's something serious and two days isn't going to make a difference in getting a diagnosis

right?

i'm not in pain

reprise85
07-04-2014, 10:54 PM
God damn I hate doctors.

It's not exams, or the doctors themselves, it's having to explain all of my conditions and feeling like a freakshow and/or hypochondriac since there are so many.

hypothyroid
asthma
eczema
foot problems
tachycardia/blood pressure issues
depression
ptsd
ibs/gerd

fucking shoot me

Trotskilicious
07-04-2014, 10:55 PM
They'll prob tell you to go on birth control

my friend's sisters cousin's friend wouldn't be able to work without the miracle of birth control

juliana
07-04-2014, 11:01 PM
Thanks

I mean either it's some kind of benign hormone thing/stress in which case it's not dangerous

or it's a cyst or something fairly harmless.

or it's something serious and two days isn't going to make a difference in getting a diagnosis

right?

i'm not in pain


Ya you will be okay, it is best to go through your doctor, you don't need the ER.

God damn I hate doctors.

It's not exams, or the doctors themselves, it's having to explain all of my conditions and feeling like a freakshow and/or hypochondriac since there are so many.

hypothyroid
asthma
eczema
foot problems
tachycardia/blood pressure issues
depression
ptsd
ibs/gerd

fucking shoot me


I am sure they hear war worse everday. Going to the doctor is upsetting to me too. My doctor is really good but she can be a little bit upsetting.

null123
07-04-2014, 11:07 PM
I do kinda have the itch to make a couple points though

- Catholic teaching on contraception has to do with affirming the value of life. You'll find that Catholics also are very against assisted suicide. It's not an anti-technology or anti-medicine thing. Birth control is even condemned in the Bible, and was certainly condemned in the early Church. It's not a question of changing times.
- If you feel like "everyone is having babies" you still need to consider the numbers and realize fertility has been on the decline for 100 years. Relative to the rest of the world, affluent Western women don't have many children.
- Why do you believe children are always more immoral than their parents? As far as I can tell this is a completely ahistorical view of humanity, it at best covers the trends of post-war America.
- Your sense that "this is just how things always are" seems very cynical and passive to me. There has obviously been a ton of change in our society as far as children born out of wedlock, divorce, abortion, prostitution etc etc. Those things matter, and it has NOT always been this way.
- To give some specific perspective on the cultural impact of birth control, look at the midcentury decline of the Catholic Church. Many people misattribute the decrease in membership and devotion to Vatican II (which attempted to modernize the church, introduced the vernacular liturgy etc), but in fact the big blow was when Pope Paul VI delivered his encyclical officially condemning the use of birth control in 1968 that people started leaving in droves, and even much of the clergy did not support the Pope during this time. There had already been a trickle of dissent though from around the time protestant churches flipped on the issue about 30 years prior.

Trotskilicious
07-04-2014, 11:21 PM
the catholic church i hate those guys

juliana
07-04-2014, 11:27 PM
You are giving the catholic church too much credit. Their hate for birth control is just about women not making their own choices, the catholic church is extremely sexist. I'm catholic and went to catholic school, it was obvious they want a double standard.

reprise85
07-04-2014, 11:30 PM
I do kinda have the itch to make a couple points though

- Catholic teaching on contraception has to do with affirming the value of life. You'll find that Catholics also are very against assisted suicide. It's not an anti-technology or anti-medicine thing. Birth control is even condemned in the Bible, and was certainly condemned in the early Church. It's not a question of changing times.
- If you feel like "everyone is having babies" you still need to consider the numbers and realize fertility has been on the decline for 100 years. Relative to the rest of the world, affluent Western women don't have many children.
- Why do you believe children are always more immoral than their parents? As far as I can tell this is a completely ahistorical view of humanity, it at best covers the trends of post-war America.
- Your sense that "this is just how things always are" seems very cynical and passive to me. There has obviously been a ton of change in our society as far as children born out of wedlock, divorce, abortion, prostitution etc etc. Those things matter, and it has NOT always been this way.
- To give some specific perspective on the cultural impact of birth control, look at the midcentury decline of the Catholic Church. Many people misattribute the decrease in membership and devotion to Vatican II (which attempted to modernize the church, introduced the vernacular liturgy etc), but in fact the big blow was when Pope Paul VI delivered his encyclical officially condemning the use of birth control in 1968 that people started leaving in droves, and even much of the clergy did not support the Pope during this time. There had already been a trickle of dissent though from around the time protestant churches flipped on the issue about 30 years prior.

- I don't agree that making life last as long as possible no matter what as affirming life. People have the right to decide if affirming life means controlling their own death. But we won't agree on this.

- I don't see what's so important with having as many babies as possible. We are not going to die out from lack of offspring.

- I don't think children are always more immoral than their parents, that was my point - but it seems like a common view when parents talk about how children disrespect their elders and etc., that every subsequent generation believes the new generation is just doing crazy and outlandish things - I have read articles on this but on short notice here's people debating it: http://www.debate.org/opinions/are-our-societys-values-deteriorating. Generations distinguish themselves in some terrible and unique ways but that doesn't necessarily mean we are devolving

- Society's problems may ebb and flow in different directions but there will always be problems. Is there more prostitution than there used to be or is it being reported more (really I have no idea)? Is divorce such a terrible thing to be increasing vs. people staying in terrible marriages? Abortion is not an ideal thing to be happening of course, but again people have always wanted and used ways to abort pregnancies that were more dangerous than medical abortions. I don't even disagree on your points but instead of saying these things are terrible and shouldn't exist, I think I'm more realistic that yes they shouldn't exist but they do and we should work towards minimizing harmful outcomes than condemning people for making poor choices. Like championing birth control so people don't get pregnant and get abortions, which I think most people would agree is, at the very least, the lesser of two evils.

- Not sure if your last bullet is a point or just a history lesson. People left when they saw the church had a moral view that was wholly incorrect to them. Isn't that how it's supposed to work?

Trotskilicious
07-04-2014, 11:44 PM
i think prostitutes aren't treated like animals as often as they used to be

null123
07-04-2014, 11:49 PM
We won't agree on much.
Mostly when I hear you all talking about your ideas about humanity you sound depressed and petty. Chasing after "good enough" as in, not in any immediate pain, not omg bossing anyone else around, not "hurting" anyone, this is going to get you exactly where we are, which is a nation of emotionally stunted, sad, empty people. You can't chase big problems with these cynical attitudes and small-time solutions. Societies can't survive without grand, holistic thinking and higher ideals than this. Never have and never will.

null123
07-04-2014, 11:51 PM
i think prostitutes aren't treated like animals as often as they used to be

Prostitutes have higher rates of PTSD than soldiers. Their (frequent) rapes and murders are not even investigated by law enforcement. Most prostitutes enter the so-called profession at 13.
But please tell us more

reprise85
07-04-2014, 11:56 PM
But I'm not depressed and petty. These people you are calling emotionally stunted, sad and empty people are people who are mostly doing the best they can.
Mostly when I hear you talking about your ideas on society you sound angry and self righteous.

We cannot have an ideal society. We can improve society, but only with real practical ideas and not ideology. There are things most people can agree on and that is where we should start. Your personal morality can then start at that point. And I think I could reword what you said: Societies can't survive long term without changing, period. But change does not equal disintegration. Change is not failure. It is not sad or cynical to be realistic, it is sad to miss the opportunity to improve things where you can in pursuit of some higher ideal that most people don't agree with and is impossible to implement anyway.

reprise85
07-04-2014, 11:59 PM
Prostitutes have higher rates of PTSD than soldiers. Their (frequent) rapes and murders are not even investigated by law enforcement. Most prostitutes enter the so-called profession at 13.
But please tell us more

This is terrible and needs to change but is it different than it used to be? Didn't people not ever even give shit about these people at all, and no one would even worry that it was wrong and terrible? How would you suggest we stop this besides making small, measured improvements like offering prostitutes free health exams and offering them paths to legitimate employment and longer sentences for pimps etc? It's not just going to disappear, we need to minimize harm.

Trotskilicious
07-05-2014, 12:00 AM
Prostitutes have higher rates of PTSD than soldiers. Their (frequent) rapes and murders are not even investigated by law enforcement. Most prostitutes enter the so-called profession at 13.
But please tell us more

i think you're being a little too aggressive because it was a sarcastic comment intended to indicate that i was well aware of how the vast majority are treated today in our life and times

The exploding boy
07-05-2014, 12:00 AM
I like how exploding boy or whatever his name is read only the first sentence of my 2-3 sentence post and then made a comment.

no i read the rest, i know that wasn't your point. I just felt like pointing out that that's not even something that can be said anymore. It's time to realize there is a serious need to lower our procreation rate. Oh yeah we could be more if there wasnt greed and resources were distributed better (like charm said). Great, is it gonna happen? Unlikely, therefore the only thing we have power over as individuals is to stop procreating.

reprise85
07-05-2014, 12:00 AM
Like this whole thing with Hobby Lobby/birth control. Yes it is annoying that men jumped on the moral bandwagon but isn't that better than none of them giving a shit at all? Isn't that progress?

juliana
07-05-2014, 12:01 AM
Legalize and regulate prostitution.

The exploding boy
07-05-2014, 12:02 AM
I do think that some men have sold women that sexual freedom is the ultimate feminism



Yes. And how.

Trotskilicious
07-05-2014, 12:03 AM
charmbag are you like me, are you wondering what's freedumb really fuck this dumb shit

right yeah right but but but but who holds that control? WHO WATCHES THE WATCHPERSONS?

:hanging:

Trotskilicious
07-05-2014, 12:05 AM
Yes. And how.

i don't know how much of a doing that was of men entirely and exclusively

The exploding boy
07-05-2014, 12:06 AM
Well no obviously.

Future Boy
07-05-2014, 12:06 AM
please trots, they're trying to have a discussion here

Trotskilicious
07-05-2014, 12:09 AM
fuck you dc turd

null123
07-05-2014, 12:16 AM
i'm all about freedom, non-judgement and sexual expression. live and let live.

Future Boy
07-05-2014, 12:18 AM
if i still read comics that wouldve hurt

null123
07-05-2014, 12:20 AM
Also what the fuck is debate.org it looks like a nightmare

Trotskilicious
07-05-2014, 12:46 AM
you're getting in there and making a difference by talking about stuff and participating in democracy

Trotskilicious
07-05-2014, 12:46 AM
but seriously what the fuck is up with the thunder signing sebastian telfair

reprise85
07-05-2014, 07:07 AM
Also what the fuck is debate.org it looks like a nightmare

I was just trying to showcase what I was talking about in case I wasn't being clear.

Trotskilicious
07-05-2014, 02:40 PM
seriously guys freedumb or control, either way it will be abused and we will be herded like chattel in service of someone else's quest for power

:hanging:

duovamp
07-05-2014, 05:40 PM
Now take off your pants and dance for me.

redbreegull
07-06-2014, 08:32 PM
It makes me a little bit glad that people finally realize how off the deep end charmbag is. I recall a time when it seemed like everyone was all over her shit. I guess I am "petty" and "depressed"

Trotskilicious
07-06-2014, 09:54 PM
actually i think she made more sense 2 years ago but now she just sounds like one of the sisters from the handmaiden's tale

null123
07-06-2014, 10:18 PM
It makes me a little bit glad that people finally realize how off the deep end charmbag is. I recall a time when it seemed like everyone was all over her shit. I guess I am "petty" and "depressed"

And yet somehow, people still like me a lot better than you.

Order 66
07-06-2014, 10:19 PM
And yet somehow, people still like me a lot better than you.

http://forums.netphoria.org/customavatars/avatar11943_21.gif

Trotskilicious
07-06-2014, 10:24 PM
oh absolutely, at least you're interesting and witty

redbreegull
07-06-2014, 10:27 PM
And yet somehow, people still like me a lot better than you.

petty and depressed much? I said I wasn't engaging with you, you baited me on, I wrote you a serious reply and you replied, "I didn't read that." So fuck you, basically. You're terrible.

Trotskilicious
07-06-2014, 10:28 PM
see that's a reason why we don't like you more than charms

null123
07-06-2014, 10:29 PM
I'm really not off the deep end either, I have pretty standard conservative opinions on certain issues. But I realize that is grounds to be institutionalized in the minds of some.

redbreegull
07-06-2014, 10:36 PM
see that's a reason why we don't like you more than charms

I can live with that

I'm really not off the deepend either, I have pretty standard conservative opinions on certain issues. But I realize that is grounds to be institutionalized in the minds of some.

For a "feminist," you are. I feel silly now, having ever let you fill me with self-doubt about my views on feminism now that you have let the beast out of its cage.

null123
07-06-2014, 10:38 PM
You do realize I didn't invent radical feminism right?

null123
07-06-2014, 10:40 PM
That's encouraging that you were filled with self-doubt though. I never would've picked up on that.

duovamp
07-07-2014, 07:27 AM
see that's a reason why we don't like you more than charms

I think having a cunt has something to do with it.

duovamp
07-07-2014, 07:29 AM
And wtf kind of argument for one's sanity is "I have more efriends," anyway?

Again, utter troll bait you dopes take all day.

juliana
07-07-2014, 10:47 AM
I think having a cunt has something to do with it.

The only reason to efriend a woman is pussy?

How come I don't have more efriends? no one likes me here

scottytheoneand
07-07-2014, 11:05 AM
you're getting in there and making a difference by talking about stuff and participating in democracy

the intertnet will save everything!

duovamp
07-07-2014, 05:02 PM
Tallied my efriends. They exceed yours. The victor of this argument is me.

Also by this rule D. is right about everything btw.

Trotskilicious
07-07-2014, 06:48 PM
I think having a cunt has something to do with it.

oh come on now, RBG sucks

D.
07-07-2014, 06:59 PM
D. is right about everything btw.
World would run so much more smoothly if people realized this. I'll wait patiently in the meantime.

null123
07-07-2014, 07:04 PM
Escalate the conflict!!

duovamp
07-07-2014, 07:26 PM
I for one welcome our new D. overlord.