View Full Version : Do people like Lenny Kravitz and Oasis because of nostalgia?


Catherine Wheel
05-29-2014, 02:25 AM
Most of their work is steeped in nostalgia. Nothing contemporary about them. So is their biggest audience people who are fond of music from the 60s and 70s?

Elphenor
05-29-2014, 02:56 AM
Contemporary is synonymous with shitty.

fuzzyroes
05-29-2014, 05:47 AM
Lenny Kravitz is the new Jimi Hendrix man

fuzzyroes
05-29-2014, 05:48 AM
In all seriousness, at least Oasis had a handful of good tracks. I've never understood how anyone could actually fucking like Lenny Kravitz.

fuzzyroes
05-29-2014, 05:51 AM
But yeah, that's an interesting question. I suppose Kravitz was just the "retro act" of the time. Similar to bands like Jet or whomever. It's hard to say though, because there was tons of dad-rock that was still big and relevant at that time. So he wasn't necessarily just a "throw-back" artist.

The exploding boy
05-29-2014, 10:01 AM
I hate lenny kravitz and never cared for Oasis. I failed to understand why even people with decent taste liked them. Boring and predictable all the way through to my ears. And then there's Liam's singing.....

Trotskilicious
05-29-2014, 11:58 AM
Contemporary is synonymous with shitty.

that's a stupid thing to say, no it's not

Trotskilicious
05-29-2014, 12:01 PM
does anyone care about jet anymore i haven't thought about that band in at least a decade

Order 66
05-29-2014, 12:38 PM
i dunno.. lenny wasnt really that retro. he just looked like it

5 was a pretty good album. at least it was when i was 15

Elphenor
05-29-2014, 02:43 PM
that's a stupid thing to say, no it's not

Idk, there's a reason retro style bands are popular and I don't think Iit's nostalgia. The direction music has moved in is boring so it's like they're running in the other direction.

Trotskilicious
05-29-2014, 03:30 PM
that's not what contemporary means, dude

soniclovenoize
05-29-2014, 04:19 PM
Rediscovered Oasis thanks to the Definitely Maybe remaster that just came out. Their first few albums were really great and The Masterplan has some great songs on it.

slunken
05-29-2014, 04:48 PM
i dunno.. lenny wasnt really that retro.

his entire schtick was steeped in it.

reprise85
05-29-2014, 07:15 PM
lenny kravitz is terrible. completely. terrible.

pavementtune
05-29-2014, 08:03 PM
Kravitz and Oasis don't have anything particular in common for me.
I'M GONNA STAAAND BYYY MYYY WOMAN, on the radio in 91/92?, that's all I remember.


Don't think I ever heard more people sing than at the Oasis concerts at Wembley, loved it.
Hardly ever listen to them now, but when I do it's partly for personal "nostalgia"/memories, and they had some really nice songs.


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<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/5bqmr-E16ls" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Elphenor
05-29-2014, 08:32 PM
Oasis is just bland. They're okay to listen to but where's the hook?
There's nothing interesting about them.

There's a lot of Brit indie bands like that. They have like Smiths style guitars but uninteresting lyrics and boring vocalists. It's 80's style rock without the gender bending edge.

pavementtune
05-29-2014, 08:53 PM
"There's a lot of Brit indie bands like that "

You don't say. That's called Britpop. A music genre when you were wetting your diapers.

Trotskilicious
05-29-2014, 10:09 PM
yeah they're also not indie and they are fucking huge

and this is a catherine wheel thread are you guys not used to how he has this magical knack for comparing two things that have very little to compare with each other

Elphenor
05-29-2014, 10:36 PM
I didn't say Oasis was indie..
But they are boring.

Trotskilicious
05-29-2014, 10:57 PM
i'm sure most of the indie brits you think are indie are on major brit labels

I'm Hardcore
05-30-2014, 12:34 AM
Oasis were on Creation once

fuzzyroes
05-30-2014, 07:46 PM
his entire schtick was steeped in it.

Exactly. His smash hit "are you gonna go my way" was pretty much just a straight up, nostalgic Jimi Hendrix rip-off.

Kravitz was just a "throwback" artist that all of the music fans of yesteryear could "appreciate"

fuzzyroes
05-30-2014, 07:48 PM
Then again Aerosmith was still culturally relevant at the time with their dad-rock. But atleast they were the originators still doing their thing, not some young-ass kid wannabe.

Catherine Wheel
05-30-2014, 07:58 PM
Out of the Big 3 of Britpop (Blur, Oasis, The Verve) Oasis were the only ones that were truly throwback dad-rock type stuff.

The exploding boy
05-30-2014, 08:02 PM
I think it's time most of you realise the 90's was a fucking wasteland for good music (yeah yeah some exceptions, sure). Except for those that still think grunge was any good. I can't help you. I wish I'd been a teenager in pretty much any other decade. But I guess it's easy to idealize what you didn't live through.

Oasis is just bland. They're okay to listen to but where's the hook?
There's nothing interesting about them.

There's a lot of Brit indie bands like that. They have like Smiths style guitars but uninteresting lyrics and boring vocalists. It's 80's style rock without the gender bending edge.


I wouldn't say that Oasis had in any way Smiths guitars if that's what you were implying (its not clear) even despite the fact that Marr DID lend one of this guitar to Noel Gallagher sorta in the beginnings (who smashed it over someone's head at a show so Marr never saw it again). I think less of Marr for having endorsed Oasis. then again I think less of people for pretty much any bullshit reasons all the goddam time.

Catherine Wheel
05-30-2014, 08:06 PM
The 90s: responsible for shoegaze, trip hop, downtempo, jazz rap, third wave ska

It was a great decade for music.

The exploding boy
05-30-2014, 08:10 PM
The 90s: responsible for shoegaze, trip hop, downtempo, jazz rap, third wave ska

It was a great decade for music.

didn't the term dream pop exist pre 90's? Shoegaze I can take and leave some. trip hop, meh. third wave ska, THIRD WAVE SKA AND YOU SAY GREAT DECADE? please kill me now, right the fuck now. It almost ruined proper ska as a genre.

I don't even fucking know what downtempo is. But probably I shouldn't care.

you left out grunge, nu metal, brit pop (which DID have some good bands, like..2 or 3), etc etc.

Post rock I think wasn't really around before the 90s either? Again can take some, but don't like most.

I'm Hardcore
05-30-2014, 08:11 PM
shoegaze came considerably before 1990

The exploding boy
05-30-2014, 08:12 PM
Out of the Big 3 of Britpop (Blur, Oasis, The Verve) Oasis were the only ones that were truly throwback dad-rock type stuff.

Pulp's His n Hers and Different Class killed any of those bands. Unfortunately pulp was a revolving door kinda band with cocker as only constant and they never got as good after.

Catherine Wheel
05-30-2014, 08:14 PM
Dream pop didn't really become marketable and successful until the 90s. The Cranberries and the Sundays were huge. So I think the 90s can kind of claim it

The exploding boy
05-30-2014, 08:16 PM
Dream pop is pretty much not a very defined genre and when I see you mention cranberries as being dream pop, it proves it. I swear I see this tag put on bands I never thought of qualifying as dream pop all the time.

Catherine Wheel
05-30-2014, 08:17 PM
And it's the same with shoegaze. Sure it was around before 90s but it became very successful and popular in the early 90s.

I'm Hardcore
05-30-2014, 08:19 PM
pointless discussion

The exploding boy
05-30-2014, 08:24 PM
sure but then why would this forum exist?

Shallowed
05-30-2014, 08:34 PM
why does life exist?

vixnix
05-31-2014, 02:51 AM
Mama Said is a pretty solid album. Cheesey and lacking in genuine emotional depth but lots of catchy riffs and lyrics. I loved that album as an 18/19 year old, drinking my Stella Artois and smoking my Marlboro lights in little ol Wellington, NZ

vixnix
05-31-2014, 02:59 AM
Definitely maybe and what's the story morning glory are pretty solid too, even if not to people's tastes.

It wasn't just nostalgia - if anything they just didn't get caught up in the indie movement where everything had to be rough or dissonant sounding lest it be called "mainstream"

vixnix
05-31-2014, 03:04 AM
Oh man I just remembered that my boyfriend at the time introduced me to Mama Said because he played More than Anything in this World to me when we first started dating. Nostalgia pains. What a couple of beautiful and tragic teenagers we were.

vixnix
05-31-2014, 03:36 AM
My husband just came in and found me listening to lenny kravitz and burst out laughing. Then he joked he was going to make a status update about finding his wife watching a lenny kravitz show. My whole life is just such a joke.

reprise85
05-31-2014, 07:48 AM
i like whats the story morning glory. i still play it maybe 1-2 times a year.

The Omega Concern
06-03-2014, 11:26 PM
Kravits would be nostalgic to me but not Oasis. They have a strong sense of structure I somehow find underrated in their material when I hear it now. I liked 'em and all back in the day but they buggered off kinda quick and they were so many other bands at the time. But now I think their stuff holds up much better than most.

Trotskilicious
06-03-2014, 11:56 PM
Definitely maybe and what's the story morning glory are pretty solid too, even if not to people's tastes.

It wasn't just nostalgia - if anything they just didn't get caught up in the indie movement where everything had to be rough or dissonant sounding lest it be called "mainstream"

i'm not sure anything in the 90s could have been more mainstream in the UK than oasis

Trotskilicious
06-03-2014, 11:57 PM
i was looking at some lenny kravitz and seriously it sounds like a jimi hendrix cover band that decided to do "original" songs that sound like watered down hendrix songs...

but three cheers for lenny's drummer in a box, i always thought she was rad

Trotskilicious
06-04-2014, 12:03 AM
The 90s: responsible for shoegaze, trip hop, downtempo, jazz rap, third wave ska

It was a great decade for music.

you mention a bunch of niche genres like "jazz rap" (which, what, entirely consists of a tribe called quest and black star?) instead of THE ENTIRE GENRE TOOK FLIGHT IN THE 90S, JESUS CHRIST. WU-TANG FOREVER. NASTY NAS. JAY FUCKING Z. BIGGIE. TUPAC. <h1>OUT FUCKING KAST</h1>

god damn you CW with your fucking genres "downtempo" what the fuck are you talking about

Trotskilicious
06-04-2014, 12:05 AM
and yeah saying shoegaze is 90s is basically not understanding that the scene came to a complete halt somewhere around 91 or 92, that these bands had gotten started in the late 80s and it's like saying the pixies were a 90s band.

also, i'd like to mention what i consider to be the protogaze band is the SMITHS and HOW SOON IS GODDAMN NOW was early to mid 80s. pretty sure How Soon is Now practically invented shoegaze

JOHNNY MARR IS GOD FUCK CLAPTON

vixnix
06-04-2014, 12:52 AM
i'm not sure anything in the 90s could have been more mainstream in the UK than oasis

Yep what's your point

Trotskilicious
06-04-2014, 01:06 AM
i dunno din****** what was yours about "dissonant" being "outside of the mainstream"

because that was stupid fucking point about the 90s in rock music

Trotskilicious
06-04-2014, 01:07 AM
yeah because you know nirvana was like

not mainstream

because they got "caught up in the indie movement where everything had to be rough or dissonant sounding"

Trotskilicious
06-04-2014, 01:07 AM
like seriously you're so fucking clueless it drives me fucking insane, is this just deliberate trolling or are you really this opinionated and unknowledgable

i mean do you enjoy saying patently false blanket statements and having them refuted, does that tickle your jimmies?

I'm Hardcore
06-04-2014, 01:22 AM
vixnix you are dense

I'm Hardcore
06-04-2014, 01:22 AM
following CW's logic, i guess emo is a 2000's movement because that's when it became popular

Trotskilicious
06-04-2014, 01:25 AM
sorry i have some rage issues

I'm Hardcore
06-04-2014, 01:28 AM
don't apologise on behalf of vixnix's terrible boarding

vixnix
06-04-2014, 01:31 AM
Definitely maybe and what's the story morning glory are pretty solid too, even if not to people's tastes.

It wasn't just nostalgia - if anything they just didn't get caught up in the indie movement where everything had to be rough or dissonant sounding lest it be called "mainstream"

I don't get it, are you not reading what I wrote? I never said Oasis weren't mainstream

vixnix
06-04-2014, 01:34 AM
They made unapologetically melodic ballads, a lot like SD era Pumpkins, not caring if it made them sound mainstream

It's a very popular form for songwriting, so their albums enjoyed widespread popularity.

What's your point??

vixnix
06-04-2014, 01:40 AM
Oh Nirvana. Well Nirvana was pop music gold - studio execs are always looking for music that is just different enough to be novel, but familiar enough that most people can easily accept it.

Actually the hair metal that preceded Nirvana was far more dissonant - Nirvana is fairly melodic. The biggest point of difference with Nirvana is that it wasn't contrived...their sentiments were real.

But there's a reason Nirvana Unplugged in New York is a freakishly accomplished and beautiful recording that say GNR & Poison haven't been able to replicate.

The exploding boy
06-04-2014, 01:46 AM
also, i'd like to mention what i consider to be the protogaze band is the SMITHS and HOW SOON IS GODDAMN NOW was early to mid 80s. pretty sure How Soon is Now practically invented shoegaze

JOHNNY MARR IS GOD FUCK CLAPTON

I don't hear it. At least if i think of the main 3 or 4 shoegaze bands. More like Cocteau Twins and Jesus and Mary chain. And a band like slowdive has more in common with The Cure or Chameleons (i honestly don't get why bands like Slowdive and MBV are in the same genre...they sound little alike).

Catherine Wheel
06-04-2014, 01:48 AM
I kind of want to say 93 was the last big year for shoegaze because that year Catherine Wheel released Chrome, Slowdive released Souvlaki and Kitchens of Distinction released The Death of Cool.

I'm Hardcore
06-04-2014, 01:49 AM
I kind of want to say 93 was the last big year for shoegaze because that year Catherine Wheel released Chrome, Slowdive released Souvlaki and Kitchens of Distinction released The Death of Cool.

you didn't mention Bailter Space's album 'Robot World', which is better than those other 3

The exploding boy
06-04-2014, 02:03 AM
Not to be anal but Death of Cool is actually 92.

Catherine Wheel
06-04-2014, 02:53 AM
Yeah I realized that after I made that post

Shallowed
06-04-2014, 03:01 AM
Catherine Wheel releasing Chrome and Adorable releasing Against Perfection are death knells for shoegaze in 1993 more than anything. Both those bands are rubbish.

But you are right in a way, in the years to come, almost every seminal shoegaze band would go on to release terrible albums or just shy away from shoegaze altogether, for better or worse.

Some other great 93 shoegaze albums
Secret Shine - Untouched
The Verve - A Storm in Heaven
Swervedriver - Mezcal Head
Lovesliescrushing - Bloweyelashwish
Flying Saucer Attack s/t

Cool As Ice Cream
06-04-2014, 07:25 AM
I kind of want to say 93 was the last big year for shoegaze because that year Catherine Wheel released Chrome, Slowdive released Souvlaki and Kitchens of Distinction released The Death of Cool.

YOU KIND OF WANT TO SAY THAT?
REALLY?
I AM NOT SURE IF THAT IS ALLOWED, CATHERINE WHEEL, IF THAT IS IN FACT YOUR REAL NAME. PLEASE AWAIT OUR DECISION. WE ARE KIND OF WEIGHING UP ALL THE PROS AND THE CONTRAS. KIND OF.

Trotskilicious
06-04-2014, 11:45 AM
Actually the hair metal that preceded Nirvana was far more dissonant - Nirvana is fairly melodic.

what the FUCK are you talking about

Trotskilicious
06-04-2014, 11:48 AM
WOAH
YEAH
BAYYYYYYYYYYBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY YYYYYYYYYYYYY

Trotskilicious
06-04-2014, 11:49 AM
also just fyi the idea that everything in the indie 90s was abrasive or deliberately unlistenable is fucking dumb and incorrect.

anytime anyone says "all of indie is x" they are ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS <b>ALWAYS</b> <u>ALWAYS</U> <i>ALWAYS</i> wrong

Cool As Ice Cream
06-04-2014, 12:10 PM
^ i kind of wanted to say that.

pavementtune
06-04-2014, 12:12 PM
how come the term shoegaze isn't popular in other languages.
other english terms like grunge, alternative, down tempo blablabla are common, but not shoegaze.

CAIC, is shoegaze a thing/category on belgian music sites?

Trotskilicious
06-04-2014, 12:16 PM
i dunno i think we need a better term for noisy guitar rock that uses lots of pedals, feedback, distortion and that wall of sound

i mean Japandroids and Joy Formidable and Ride and Sonic Youth and the Smashing Pumpkins and Fucked Up and late period Sleater-Kinney (THE WOODS) all exist in the same category for me, but I'm about broadening genres not inventing new ones to subcategorize two or three bands in their own "genres" like CW with his fucking jazz rap bullshit

Cool As Ice Cream
06-04-2014, 12:18 PM
CAIC, is shoegaze a thing/category on belgian music sites?

what's a belgian music site?

pavementtune
06-04-2014, 12:20 PM
what's a belgian music site?


no idea, anything, concert reviews, ticket sellers, radio, album reviews - do they use the term shoegaze to describe a band?


maybe I'm just too old to really get the word shoegaze. It seems fairly new to me, but the music style isn't.
I can't imagine going in a record store a few years ago and saying - hey, can you suggest me some good SHOEGAZE ALBUMS.

I read "The Verve blabla SHOEGAZE" in this thread, and I have no fucking clue what the fuck you people are talking about.

Trotskilicious
06-04-2014, 01:02 PM
i use that term around town and most of the people i talk to have NO IDEA what it means and i live in what is ostensibly a hip city

the name derives from the original brit journalists that covered the scene, not only did the performers have a downcast demeanor in general but they were also primarily looking at their pedals during performances, so the term was coined.

i think generally the term is much more familiar to the british because it's almost exclusively british

lately there's a second wave of shoegaze, which some have called "nugaze" but i still think it's kind of fringe

pavementtune
06-04-2014, 01:14 PM
I am familiar with the word for the late 80s, and that's what I think of when someone says SHOEGAZE. But in the 90s in my parts "alternative" or "Britpop" were the main terms.
This second wave is what I don't get.


PostpunkpostrockpostrapShoegaze2014.

Trotskilicious
06-04-2014, 01:23 PM
second wave just means bands like Pains of Being Pure at Heart, the Joy Formidable, No Joy. Basically contemporary bands that have a shoegaze approach.

pavementtune
06-04-2014, 01:29 PM
What about Deerhunter, do I have to call them shoegaze when I don't want to sound like I fell asleep in 2000.

The exploding boy
06-04-2014, 01:40 PM
how come the term shoegaze isn't popular in other languages.
other english terms like grunge, alternative, down tempo blablabla are common, but not shoegaze.

CAIC, is shoegaze a thing/category on belgian music sites?


Well i dont know but i hang out on a french (as in from France) forum and on the music board they have a thread for shoegaze. Actually called shoegaze.

The exploding boy
06-04-2014, 02:11 PM
second wave just means bands like Pains of Being Pure at Heart, the Joy Formidable, No Joy. Basically contemporary bands that have a shoegaze approach.


Ok i really hate that you even know who No Joy is. I was hoping this was just gonna be one more of White-Gluz bullshit bands that go nowhere and no one cares about but that she somehow manages to push down peoples throats. She used to do indie pop, it was shit too. In another life ten years back or so I was friend with and eventually romantically pursued the other girl in that band (Laura) and that ended in disaster. But that's what i get for attempting to date people several years my junior. Fucking old creep. They're upper class private school kids who never needed to work a day in their lives. Perfect for shoegaze. I've actually seen them bitch at kickstarter in an interview. Yeah, not everyone has parents to fund their artistic endeavours while they're slumming it.

And yes of course i'm bitter(though i swear it is unrelated to my failure to date one of them, that was long before she even played anything anyway)

Trotskilicious
06-04-2014, 02:14 PM
What about Deerhunter, do I have to call them shoegaze when I don't want to sound like I fell asleep in 2000.

i love deerhunter and they have some shoegazy elements especially lockett pundt's stuff like desire lines but ultimately i think bradford cox was right on the money, it's "ambient punk" i think deerhunter has way more in common with VU and Television than shoegaze, really.

so that would make them post post punk i guess

Trotskilicious
06-04-2014, 02:15 PM
POST NOTHING

CELEBRATION ROCK

Trotskilicious
06-04-2014, 02:17 PM
Ok i really hate that you even know who No Joy is. I was hoping this was just gonna be one more of White-Gluz bullshit bands that go nowhere and no one cares about but that she somehow manages to push down peoples throats. She used to do indie pop, it was shit too. In another life ten years back or so I was friend with and eventually romantically pursued the other girl in that band (Laura) and that ended in disaster. But that's what i get for attempting to date people several years my junior. Fucking old creep. They're upper class private school kids who never needed to work a day in their lives. Perfect for shoegaze. I've actually seen them bitch at kickstarter in an interview. Yeah, not everyone has parents to fund their artistic endeavours while they're slumming it.

And yes of course i'm bitter(though i swear it is unrelated to my failure to date one of them, that was long before she even played anything anyway)

yeah, give a fuck i do not. wait to pleasure is a good album and they make nice music.

T&T hates them too, i think you montreal types ultimately hate your own local bands

Trotskilicious
06-04-2014, 02:18 PM
i love deerhunter and they have some shoegazy elements especially lockett pundt's stuff like desire lines but ultimately i think bradford cox was right on the money, it's "ambient punk" i think deerhunter has way more in common with VU and Television than shoegaze, really.

so that would make them post post punk i guess

wait sorry post proto post punk

Trotskilicious
06-04-2014, 02:18 PM
proto post punk post rock celebration

Trotskilicious
06-04-2014, 02:19 PM
dudes like CW ruin music for everyone else

pavementtune
06-04-2014, 02:53 PM
'ambient punk' - I like that.

Trotskilicious
06-04-2014, 03:09 PM
have you seen them live yet? they're jerks and seem to only play festivals when they should play 2+ hours but still, so so good. and Bradford is so strange, funny and charming.

pavementtune
06-04-2014, 05:00 PM
yea, I've seen them twice last year, one festival one full show, loved it.

No idea why I was so damn late to the Deerhunter party, now they are one of my favorites. But the only upcoming date I know of is Roskilde.

vixnix
06-04-2014, 06:00 PM
also just fyi the idea that everything in the indie 90s was abrasive or deliberately unlistenable is fucking dumb and incorrect.

anytime anyone says "all of indie is x" they are ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS <b>ALWAYS</b> <u>ALWAYS</U> <i>ALWAYS</i> wrong

didn't say this either OMFG why don't you read things before going off

vixnix
06-04-2014, 06:03 PM
what the FUCK are you talking about

Dissonance and melody, which I made quite clear.

vixnix
06-04-2014, 06:06 PM
I don't made universal generalisations because they are easily falsifiable - every first year formal logic student learns that.

It's pretty well accepted that nearly every time someone says "All of x are also y" they are...how did you so eloquently phrase it ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS wrong or whatever - maybe one more ALWAYS.

But maybe you should, I dunno...read what people write, before going to the trouble of using your caps lock and cut and paste hot keys. Just something to think about.

Trotskilicious
06-04-2014, 07:47 PM
they just didn't get caught up in the indie movement where everything had to be rough or dissonant sounding lest it be called "mainstream"

.

vixnix
06-04-2014, 08:07 PM
It's an offhand statement...is that what you were swearing about?

You're way too invested in the words "indie" and "hipster"

Trotskilicious
06-04-2014, 09:12 PM
you are ignorant

I'm Hardcore
06-04-2014, 09:14 PM
definitely not an offhand statement , you joined in on a conversion about which you know very little

vixnix
06-04-2014, 09:27 PM
I joined a thread about Lenny Kravitz and Oasis to share my opinion about them...I know a fair bit about both of them, having bought albums by both of them. I bought two Lenny Kravitz albums actually!

And I learned classical piano for 9 years - practice & theory, including the study of melody and dissonance.

I sat my theory exams as a young girl in university lecture theatres, stopped at Grade 5 (Royal Schools of Music) because that was all I needed to go on with my practical exams in piano performance (also Royal Schools of Music).

I sat Grade 5 theory as an 11 year old. Part of the exam was to write a coherent melody, complete with passing notes, appropriate progression through dominant & subdominant and ending on the tonic. I also had to demonstrate that I understood cadences, sonata form (so motifs, recapitulation etc.)

I also studied music performance, composition, theory & history at high school until what was then sixth form which is what, junior year for the US? And then took up composition as an interest paper at uni.

So, whatever. Take it up with my many teachers if you think I don't understand music form, trends, melody, dissonance, etc. I'm just expressing what I've been taught.

If I intended to make anything other than an offhand statement about anything, ever...I sure as hell wouldn't bother doing it at netphoria. It's a forum at a smashing pumpkins website guise. don't go getting your panties in a twist and hitting on the caps lock over anything, k?

Trotskilicious
06-04-2014, 09:42 PM
escape hatch!

Trotskilicious
06-04-2014, 09:43 PM
I STUDIED MUSIC BLAH BLAH BLAH

it's amazing because you seem to have so little appreciation or knowledge for anything beyond what you studied and then you wave your useless degree around like it impresses anyone or makes you an expert in fucking anything

I'm Hardcore
06-04-2014, 09:47 PM
jesus what a long-winded pile of irrelevance that was

I'm Hardcore
06-04-2014, 09:48 PM
what you studied has nothing to do with musical trends, just saying

vixnix
06-04-2014, 09:50 PM
well we were talking about melody and dissonance - I actually do know about that. well at least my exam certificates say I do. So maybe write an all caps letter to the Royal Schools of Music, or my high school or uni I dunno what to tell you.

i mean...this is way out there and all...but maybe...it's you who doesn't know much about melody and dissonance but is prepared to talk about them like you do?

i mean...this is just a thought, you understand

I'm Hardcore
06-04-2014, 09:52 PM
well we were talking about melody and dissonance - I actually do know about that. well at least my exam certificates say I do. So maybe write an all caps letter to the Royal Schools of Music, or my high school or uni I dunno what to tell you.

i mean...this is way out there and all...but maybe...it's you who doesn't know much about melody and dissonance but is prepared to talk about them like you do?

i mean...this is just a thought, you understand

go ahead and refute anything that Trots said about 'melody' or 'dissonance' in this thread. be my guest.

vixnix
06-04-2014, 09:57 PM
i dunno din****** what was yours about "dissonant" being "outside of the mainstream"

because that was stupid fucking point about the 90s in rock music

I thought he was saying here that the point about 90s rock music was that it was dissonant. Was I reading this wrong? 90s rock music was no more dissonant than any other decade.

yeah because you know nirvana was like

not mainstream

because they got "caught up in the indie movement where everything had to be rough or dissonant sounding"

I thought he was making the point here that Nirvana was dissonant - was he not? Because Nirvana on the whole, to my ears, wrote very melodic music. Which is exactly why they crossed over, because all the little teenyboppers like me who enjoyed Lenny Kravitz and NKOTB, enjoyed Nirvana just as much.

pavementtune
06-04-2014, 10:05 PM
what has a teenager degree to do with knowing and understanding UK music mainstream trends in the 90s?

Go ahead guys, work is nauseating, maybe I can learn something from this... discussion.

vixnix
06-04-2014, 10:08 PM
nothing - but we were talking about melody and dissonance

And technically, it was a pre-teen degree. A tween degree, I guess.

Trotskilicious
06-04-2014, 10:12 PM
No idea why I was so damn late to the Deerhunter party, now they are one of my favorites. But the only upcoming date I know of is Roskilde.

i just saw that the future of the left was confirmed for that, sounds awesome to me already

pavementtune
06-04-2014, 10:17 PM
My bad, you aren't talking about this, for whatever obscure reason
it's about dissonance and Nirvana now?

Ohkay.

Definitely maybe and what's the story morning glory are pretty solid too, even if not to people's tastes.

It wasn't just nostalgia - if anything they just didn't get caught up in the indie movement where everything had to be rough or dissonant sounding lest it be called "mainstream"

vixnix
06-04-2014, 10:44 PM
Yeah - I reckon What's the Story Morning Glory & Mama Said are both solid albums, musically - both of them unapologetically melodic - which people probably write off as being unoriginal or boring because things that are easy to listen to aren't very challenging or interesting to some people - some of us are actually pretty interested in that kind of songwriting. Myself for example...and I think both of those albums have some great songwriting moments in them - great tunes, great arrangement.

The trend at the time, as I understand it, in punk circles, was music that was anti-establishment - so it had the opposite goal; to break out of conventional song writing forms and chord progressions; to explore dissonance - this music was made independently of what the larger studios were funding, because studio execs knew it didn't fit the pop formula closely enough to sell well. There were a few breakthroughs in the early nineties - Nirvana, Blind Melon, Pearl Jam, the Smashing Pumpkins, etc. - these bands enjoyed global success that rivalled Michael Jackson and Mariah Carey in the English speaking world. Although their music contained the some of the dissonance that was characteristic of the punk scene before the break happened, they were far and away the most melodic punk bands of their time, and all of their breakthrough records were polished and arranged by producers who prepped their music for a pop market. Having said that, the hair metal/heavy metal of the 80s groomed the ears of the early 90s punk/pop break. Bands like Metallics for example, were already enjoying success, and their use of the Ionian/Locrian/Lydian/Phrygian modes is arguably far more dissonant to many ears than the singles that made Nirvana famous.

I think we have to separate the concepts of dissonance from low-fi, distortion & free form music making.

To me something is dissonant if it lacks resolution. Some dissonance is normal in music and very satisfying when it is resolved - in western music it is a near universally deployed composition strategy.

It's also interesting to note that many contemporary orchestral composers were also experimenting with dissonance in the twentieth century - and pushing the boundaries of melody and harmony far more than Nirvana, or any of the punk I've heard. So it's against that bigger picture that I consider it nearly laughable to call Nirvana dissonant.

Dissonant music has never been popular - the very fact that Nirvana was popular contradicts, in my (tween degree-d) opinion, the idea that they were dissonant, or that 90s mainstream rock was dissonant.

A lot of independently made punk was far more dissonant, in that the music didn't resemble the song structures an average pop radio listener would recognise. But that wasn't the case with grunge. And the kids I met in Indianapolis, New York & Chicago (in 1999), definitely had the goal of sounding dissonant and producing music that was original at all costs, and hopefully only popular within the college graduate/working in bars & cafes for day jobs, recording at home, performing in basements and seedy dives kind of crowd that they spent all their time hanging out with. Lenny Kravitz with his Burt Bacharach style ballads was seen as a goof - to be selling well in the same market place as Lenny meant that your music had to be as goofy as his. There was a kind of snobbery about it.

I think this is the same thing that Billy has talked about a lot....it isn't new info...

vixnix
06-04-2014, 10:45 PM
See, this is why I don't bother being serious at Netphoria. Because it takes an hour of my life I'll never get back and now wait for the

tl;dr

bullshit

you're deluded

god you're so fucking stupid

pavementtune
06-04-2014, 10:55 PM
Where I can't follow is why you see such a close connection between the success of Nirvana, punk, and the UK 90s mainstream, specifically Oasis.

That the US, the UK and Australia/NZ are English speaking countries is (for me) not enough to lump the 90s trends all together and pretend there was one universal rule no matter the cultural background.

vixnix
06-04-2014, 11:12 PM
ohhhhh ok

Well growing up in NZ and living in Aus, it seemed very similar to the US - the music scene I mean. More electronica - that came from the UK and Europe - Kruder and Dorfmeister & Herbalizer were big in the 90s in NZ, on uni radio.

England I can't speak for, the music scene there seems to have been far more diverse and maybe regional? Portishead, Massive Attack, etc. were big - there was a sort of Bristol sound explosion wasn't there? And that grew out of an independent music scene - little labels like Ninja Tune...trip-hop stuff. That was big in NZ too. I guess my comment about Oasis is along the same lines though - they didn't get caught up in trying to do something different - their focus was on conventional song writing, but just because they weren't innovative doesn't mean they were popular just because they sounded like another band, or like another era. In my opinion their songwriting was worth listening to because it had its own merits and one of those merits was writing good, listenable, conventional songs.

Trotskilicious
06-05-2014, 12:08 AM
nah oasis was a good pop band with memorable hooks and a lived in, familiar but ultimately lush and identifiable sound.

i don't think you could hear oasis and mistake them for someone else. really, they have their own trademark. that's enough.

i think assumptions are made of indie music fans/musicians that they HAVE TO HAVE THE MOST INNOVATIVE ORIGINAL THING EVER in fact it's kind of the opposite. or that is something that is of penultimate importance. it's not.

it's not like coldplay where you hear them and it sounds like the most by-the-numbers dreck churned out almost as if it was created by an algorithm to be banal popular arena rock

vixnix
06-05-2014, 12:39 AM
I'm home sick again. Sick and grumpy. Argh.

vixnix
06-05-2014, 12:40 AM
nah oasis was a good pop band with memorable hooks and a lived in, familiar but ultimately lush and identifiable sound.

i don't think you could hear oasis and go "who is this?" or mistake them for someone else. really, they have their own trademark. that's enough.

i think assumptions are made of indie music fans/musicians that they HAVE TO HAVE THE MOST INNOVATIVE ORIGINAL THING EVER in fact it's kind of the opposite. or that is something that is of penultimate importance. it's not.

it's not like coldplay where you hear them and it sounds like the most by-the-numbers dreck churned out almost as if it was created by an algorithm to be banal popular arena rock

agreed. you could kill coldplay with a fire and nobody would know it had happened.

Trotskilicious
06-05-2014, 12:50 AM
chris martin probably has the rights to his hologram already planned out in his will

Trotskilicious
06-05-2014, 12:50 AM
anyone who could love gwenyth paltrow should be put to death by guillotine

i mean right next to her obvs.

Cool As Ice Cream
06-05-2014, 02:45 AM
i've studied musical trends for over fifteen years