View Full Version : Gish is better than Mellon Collie


Trotskilicious
10-09-2010, 01:48 AM
I'm not even trolling yo.

ilikeplanets
10-09-2010, 01:51 AM
Hmm.....Bury Me is a better song than Lily. But that's the only truth I can find in this statement.

Ihaguitar
10-09-2010, 05:19 AM
Gish is better because MCIS is too long and has some cheesy lyrics like zero and bwbw.

ilikeplanets
10-09-2010, 05:23 AM
Without MCIS there prob would be no netphoria...

Ihaguitar
10-09-2010, 05:37 AM
Without MCIS there prob would be no netphoria...

Awww

bozo
10-09-2010, 05:38 AM
Gish has a much higher good to bad song ratio, but is edged out in total number of good songs; especially if we are counting b-sides........ faggot.

samuel redman
10-09-2010, 06:11 AM
Gish is the Pumpkins album I will usually listen to before any of the others

soniclovenoize
10-09-2010, 07:25 AM
Gish is better because MCIS is too long and has some cheesy lyrics like zero and bwbw.

Do what you're gonna do
Say what you're gonna say
Do what you're gonna do
Start today

cork_soaker
10-09-2010, 07:47 AM
Flower chase the sunshine!

ilikeplanets
10-09-2010, 07:52 AM
ALSO Gish tends to focus solely on sadness and confusion while MCIS is a true emotional journey...songs about insecurity,doubt, hope, anger, hurt, beauty, silliness, love, peace....Gish can make me feel but MCIS is like looking at life as if you were beyond it.

RenewRevive
10-09-2010, 08:23 AM
er, no.

Catherine Wheel
10-09-2010, 10:21 AM
ALSO Gish tends to focus solely on sadness and confusion while MCIS is a true emotional journey...songs about insecurity,doubt, hope, anger, hurt, beauty, silliness, love, peace....Gish can make me feel but MCIS is like looking at life as if you were beyond it.

It seems more like the exact opposite. Gish isn't nearly as bleak and gloomy as Mellon Collie in lyrics or sound.

cork_soaker
10-09-2010, 11:07 AM
love is suicide!
love is suicide!
love is suicide!
love is suicide!
love is suicide!
love is suicide!

Ihaguitar
10-09-2010, 11:17 AM
It seems more like the exact opposite. Gish isn't nearly as bleak and gloomy as Mellon Collie in lyrics or sound.

Gish is pretty gloomy, and not much else (apart from killer drumming and guitar solos)

Catherine Wheel
10-09-2010, 11:26 AM
Gish is sad at times and introspective but I wouldn't call it gloomy. And except for maybe two songs the music isn't gloomy at all. It's very trippy and psychedelic. Mellon Collie is gloomy. Adore is gloomy.

redbreegull
10-09-2010, 11:35 AM
I wouldn't really describe Gish as a gloomy album. I think a lot of the songs are pretty uplifting.

Ihaguitar
10-09-2010, 12:22 PM
I wouldn't really describe Gish as a gloomy album. I think a lot of the songs are pretty uplifting.

True, but I would say it's a touch one dimensional.

iPumpkin
10-09-2010, 06:39 PM
Driving a friend to work a few weeks ago while listening to gish: "Turn this shit off, I'm falling asleep."

New Art Rioter
10-09-2010, 06:59 PM
Mellon Collie isn't really that gloomy. The end of the second CD is pivotal in the course of the album.

Trotskilicious
10-09-2010, 07:15 PM
Flower chase the sunshine!

FLOWER!
CHAAAASEEE THE SUUUUUNNNNNSHINNNNE

wHATcOLOR
10-11-2010, 03:34 AM
i like mcis a lot more than gish. i don't think ive listened to either album in a year at least, but i remember thinking that one of the main reasons i listened to gish was for the drumming

Ihaguitar
10-11-2010, 03:17 PM
I think one of the main reasons I liked SP so much was the drumming.

cork_soaker
10-11-2010, 03:49 PM
The musicianship in MCIS is just incredible and speaks of great potential, but the songwriting and versatility of Gish just set it apart from the rest of their less mature canon.

does not compute

soniclovenoize
10-11-2010, 04:39 PM
The musicianship in MCIS is just incredible and speaks of great potential, but the songwriting and versatility of Gish just set it apart from the rest of their less mature canon.

Strike that. Reverse it.

Spira|_
10-11-2010, 05:02 PM
MCIS is simply the best piece of music art ever made.


I just love all SP albums because I knew MCIS once.

And like someone told before without MCIS wouldnt even exist Netphoria.

soniclovenoize
10-11-2010, 07:12 PM
MCIS is simply the best piece of music art ever made.


lol wut

ilikeplanets
10-11-2010, 09:25 PM
I understand Spiral. :)

Trotskilicious
10-12-2010, 01:29 AM
lavenderskies his high as fuck guys

Trotskilicious
10-12-2010, 11:24 AM
word is born son

Gish08
10-12-2010, 12:08 PM
MCIS really has not aged well at all. Some tracks have brilliant production, others fall flat on their face.

Gish and Siamese Dream are technical marvels on the other hand.

soniclovenoize
10-12-2010, 12:19 PM
MCIS really has not aged well at all. Some tracks have brilliant production, others fall flat on their face.

Gish and Siamese Dream are technical marvels on the other hand.

I agree with you about MCIS and Siamese, but how is Gish a technical marvel? Seems like a straight-forward recording to me.

Trotskilicious
10-12-2010, 12:41 PM
Yeah but it sounds pretty f-ing good.

Yeah MCIS's production can be really hit or miss. Some tracks are just so muffled and shitty sounding. Thanks Flood/Birry!

soniclovenoize
10-12-2010, 01:21 PM
Oh yeah, don't get me wrong, to me Gish is like pure Smashing Pumpkins... no conceptual bullshit, no looking like Dracula, no synths, no Glass or June or whatever, no 50 million guitar overdubs playing one note, no "We're breaking up" then "Ooops I didn't mean it" then "Nah I'm just kidding the band was just me in the first place"... just a fucking band. Pure.

Trotskilicious
10-12-2010, 01:47 PM
totally agreed. i mean according to that fag in pavement billy was looking for fame the whole time but at least on gish he's at his least smug and bloated with his own perceived importance and HEY THERE'S HEAVY BASSLINES??? IN AN SP SONG?? NFW!!!

redbreegull
10-12-2010, 03:01 PM
Gish definitely has the least amount of bullshit going on both musically and in terms of what the band was trying to be. In some ways it is the most sincere sounding SP album to me.

Venom
10-12-2010, 08:31 PM
'Tis a shame Siamese Dream totally takes a shit on both Gish and MCIS, yeah, I said it.

ilikeplanets
10-12-2010, 08:36 PM
Gish definitely has the least amount of bullshit going on both musically and in terms of what the band was trying to be. In some ways it is the most sincere sounding SP album to me.

And underfunded. I know there they didn't have a public image when writing/recording Gish, making it sound more sincere but imo the band was just unable to realize where they wanted to go due to lack of financial resources. MCIS just covers A SHIT LOAD more territory than Gish and that makes it much better :D

Catherine Wheel
10-12-2010, 08:52 PM
Gish is the least pretentious and least calculated effort by the group.

jammin
10-12-2010, 09:04 PM
mcis is clearly technically a better album, but gish just rocks - which is how i'll always remember the pumpkins.







god, i say that like they're dead or something. :(

slunken
10-12-2010, 09:09 PM
they are

Trotskilicious
10-12-2010, 09:16 PM
Gish definitely has the least amount of bullshit going on both musically and in terms of what the band was trying to be. In some ways it is the most sincere sounding SP album to me.

way to rewrite something someone said before you did

LIBERAL ARTS MAJOR HOORAY

redbreegull
10-12-2010, 10:42 PM
way to rewrite something someone said before you did

LIBERAL ARTS MAJOR HOORAY

if I had to give an example of someone being a dick for absolutely no reason, I might point to this


ps I hope that one day you are cleansed of the bitterness you harbor over your own liberal arts degree, but I wouldn't count on it old man

Trotskilicious
10-13-2010, 12:16 AM
i know it hurts when you find out you're not as smart as you thought you were :(

redbreegull
10-13-2010, 12:58 AM
yes, my intelligence is smarting from finding out that someone shares my sentiment and expressed it previously. Poor me, deluding myself into thinking my thought was original.

porkelina
10-22-2010, 01:34 PM
Troll or not, I would have to go with MCIS.

RockLobster
10-22-2010, 05:41 PM
gish is the superior album by far.


I rank the albums

gish
adore
sd
mcis
Machina II
machina I

ilikeplanets
10-22-2010, 06:03 PM
you like adore more than sd? are you trolling?

stumpycat
10-22-2010, 06:40 PM
Presumably he's named after a B52's song...so maybe not.
Just sayin'.

tim2nyy
10-22-2010, 11:29 PM
Mellon Collie is the best album. That was the last one where Corgan wasn't a total assface dickmuncher.

ilikeplanets
10-23-2010, 01:09 AM
Idk it seems he was always kind of a dickmuncher...one can certainly see the manifestation of dickmuncherdom in MCIS, but the pompousness really sells it, imo. It completes the album's "fuck you, I fucking love you!" statement.

RockLobster
10-23-2010, 02:43 PM
you like adore more than sd? are you trolling?

I do like adore more than SD. Especially the live shows... but honestly i like all sp 1988-2000 so ranking them is not necessary.

RockLobster
10-23-2010, 02:44 PM
Presumably he's named after a B52's song...so maybe not.
Just sayin'.

no i'm not, I named after one of god's creatures. has nothing to do with B52's

Trotskilicious
10-23-2010, 02:57 PM
god has nothing to do with the lobster >:O

DeadOpera
10-23-2010, 03:08 PM
but isn't god just evolution?

Ihaguitar
10-23-2010, 04:05 PM
i know it hurts when you find out you're not as smart as you thought you were :(

I'm glad you now realise. Peace.

stumpycat
10-24-2010, 02:21 AM
no i'm not, I named after one of god's creatures. has nothing to do with B52's

Oh, ok. There's this one guy on here, clamshells clappin', and I'm pretty sure his name was inspired by lyrics in that song.

DeathCubeK
10-24-2010, 06:33 PM
No, it isn't

ilikeplanets
10-24-2010, 07:11 PM
No, it isn't

:cheers:

yoshinobu's revenge
10-25-2010, 12:13 PM
Gish has always been my favourite SP album. It's really easy to rank them from best to worst; just do it chronologically.

Gish
Siamese Dream
MCIS
Adore
Machina
Zeitgeist
TbK
etc.

iPumpkin
10-25-2010, 02:11 PM
Gish has always been my favourite SP album. It's really easy to rank them from best to worst; just do it chronologically.

Gish
Siamese Dream
MCIS
Adore
Machina
Zeitgeist
TbK
etc.

I agree with this ranking. Machina & Adore flip depending on what kind of mood i'm in.

samuel redman
10-27-2010, 01:25 PM
yeah, the "best" pumpkins album probably

redbull
10-27-2010, 01:28 PM
Adore > SD/MCIS > Gish/Machina II > Pisces > Machina > other shit

Astur
10-27-2010, 02:05 PM
i think i like pisces iscariot better than siamese dream. is that insane or something

samuel redman
10-27-2010, 06:08 PM
no

ilikeplanets
10-27-2010, 06:31 PM
Completely insane, Astur! Go get help immediately!!

stumpycat
10-28-2010, 12:34 AM
i think i like pisces iscariot better than siamese dream. is that insane or something

Nah. As good as Siamese Dream is, it is slightly homogeneous. I really like the variety of material on Pisces Iscariot, and actually find myself listening to it in its entirety more often. In that way it is like a mini MCIS.

ilikeplanets
10-28-2010, 03:22 AM
Well...Siamese Dream is an actual album, so of course the songs will have a similar feel..they were carefully chosen to create the best 13 song sequence in existence. Those tracks were edited and re-edited (and re-re-edited) so I can understand how they might run together, but each song really is its own story. Pisces Iscariot is not really an album...it's more of a collection of rejected Siamese Dream songs. Naturally this will diversify the sound, but it makes no sense to compare a bunch of random jams (albeit Starla is incredible!!) to a completed album. Plus, a majority of those PI tracks are undeniably composed Siamese Dream style....so how can Pisces Iscariot be better? It's not distinct, it's just an under-produced continuation.

soniclovenoize
10-28-2010, 03:57 PM
Well...Siamese Dream is an actual album, so of course the songs will have a similar feel..they were carefully chosen to create the best 13 song sequence in existence. Those tracks were edited and re-edited (and re-re-edited) so I can understand how they might run together, but each song really is its own story. Pisces Iscariot is not really an album...it's more of a collection of rejected Siamese Dream songs. Naturally this will diversify the sound, but it makes no sense to compare a bunch of random jams (albeit Starla is incredible!!) to a completed album. Plus, a majority of those PI tracks are undeniably composed Siamese Dream style....so how can Pisces Iscariot be better? It's not distinct, it's just an under-produced continuation.

No. Just... no.

ilikeplanets
10-28-2010, 05:39 PM
Well thanks for being thorough there

stumpycat
10-28-2010, 09:26 PM
Well...Siamese Dream is an actual album, so of course the songs will have a similar feel..they were carefully chosen to create the best 13 song sequence in existence. Those tracks were edited and re-edited (and re-re-edited) so I can understand how they might run together, but each song really is its own story. Pisces Iscariot is not really an album...it's more of a collection of rejected Siamese Dream songs. Naturally this will diversify the sound, but it makes no sense to compare a bunch of random jams (albeit Starla is incredible!!) to a completed album. Plus, a majority of those PI tracks are undeniably composed Siamese Dream style....so how can Pisces Iscariot be better? It's not distinct, it's just an under-produced continuation.

Well yeah, I get why there is a disparity in diversity. I simply enjoy the variety more. And I disagree the that the songs on here have a strong SD vibe to them. Part of the reason they weren't included on SD is because they just didn't quite fit with the overall sound/character of the album.

This actually got me to thinking...Gish is actually the album that really doesn't have that characteristic SP sound. Some songs before Gish (i.e. Jackie Blue, Not Worth Asking, East) have the roots of that "classic SP" sound, the albums PI, SD+its outtakes, and MCIS are characterized by it, but Snail is really the only song on Gish that has that definitive sound most strongly. Then post MCIS, that characteristic sound really only appears to any great strength on a song like SIYL from Machina. (And I'm talking the more major general stylistic differences here, not the difference between the uniform sound of SD tracks and the stuff that appeared on PI...)

ilikeplanets
10-28-2010, 09:42 PM
Yeah, I get where you're going Stumpycat. For me, though, Gish tracks still contain that spacey element that is present in SD, PI, and MCIS, but it was not fully developed. That's why I think MCIS is a better album..it really captures said characteristic SP sound. I agree with you that everything post MCIS sounds different...the musicians changed, and everything fell very flat.

stumpycat
10-28-2010, 09:56 PM
Nah, I love Gish and that whole era of the Pumpkins so much. But after having listened SD and MCIS, when I popped in Gish for that first time I was just like, "kinda80'scockrockingGNRclassic, uh...:think::confused:" It took me a while to get it.

soniclovenoize
10-29-2010, 11:20 AM
Well thanks for being thorough there

Arguing personal taste is just pointless. But if you really want to know...

- Pisces is an album because they said it was... Because it was marketed as an album (of b-sides and previously unreleased songs). I mean, what is an album, anyways?

- Corgan said in the liner notes that he always felt that the b-sides and unknown songs better represent the band than the album tracks, and I really agree with him. These songs just exist as songs, without the pretence of "Oh shit, this has to be the great album track or hit single!" It's more of the Smashing Pumpkins with their pants down, so to speak--just a collection of songs. But of course, they're all quality songs; no crap songs on Pisces.

- Pisces isn't solely a "collection of rejected Siamese songs", but they span from 1990-1995, including Gish outtakes, in-between-album recordings, and post Siamese radio sessions. Furthermore, to use the term "rejected" is a little harsh, because ALL of the songs are strong enough in my opinion. How about "unused"? Eh, it's all semantics... Oh by the way, for a collection of random songs, itís really well sequenced, so it stands as one cohesive whole. You canít argue that.

- As for uniformity, is that really always a good thing? I always felt the wide emotional and sonically dynamic ranges on Pisces were an amazing thing that Siamese lacked, and was further developed on MCIS. Also, I think the scatterbrained nature of Pisces gives it a more personal and intimate nature to the album, like it was a mixtape of songs Corgan made especially for you. The typed notes (with typos and all) and the obvious random Polaroid only enhance this aspect. Anyone else here feel this way?

- Random jams? Are you serious? What makes a song a "random jam"? Whatever your definition is, I'm sure it could also ******* 90% of all SP songs. Aside from Spaced and the second half of Starla, all the songs have a definite song structure and organization to them. Pasticio Medley is about the only truly "random jam" in their catalog...

- Under-produced? How about Pisces is just fine and Siamese is overproduced? Sometimes itís OK to just sound like a band and not have like 40 guitars playing one note.

- Part of it is Pisces is probably my favorite of their entire catalog, and was the album that clued me into "Oh, wow, this isn't your ordinary band here..." and made me a psycho fan. I got Siamese sometime in 1994 and liked it, but just as much as whatever I was listening to at the time (Blue Album, Superunknown, In Utero, all that crap). But it was in the summer of 1995 on the long bus ride on a Boy Scout camping trip (yeah, laugh it up bitches) where someone lent me their copy of Pisces Iscariot, and I listened to it through headphones while watching the countryside as we drove through a few American states. That album blew me away, and then I read the liner notes: "Oh, and these are all outtakes?!" which directed me back to Siamese and I could hear what I missed from only casual listening before. I bought that and Gish when I got home...

So that's my issue with your original comment. Have a nice day.

Astur
10-29-2010, 11:52 AM
Arguing personal taste is just pointless. But if you really want to know...

- Pisces is an album because they said it was... Because it was marketed as an album (of b-sides and previously unreleased songs). I mean, what is an album, anyways?

- Corgan said in the liner notes that he always felt that the b-sides and unknown songs better represent the band than the album tracks, and I really agree with him. These songs just exist as songs, without the pretence of "Oh shit, this has to be the great album track or hit single!" It's more of the Smashing Pumpkins with their pants down, so to speak--just a collection of songs. But of course, they're all quality songs; no crap songs on Pisces.

- Pisces isn't solely a "collection of rejected Siamese songs", but they span from 1990-1995, including Gish outtakes, in-between-album recordings, and post Siamese radio sessions. Furthermore, to use the term "rejected" is a little harsh, because ALL of the songs are strong enough in my opinion. How about "unused"? Eh, it's all semantics... Oh by the way, for a collection of random songs, itís really well sequenced, so it stands as one cohesive whole. You canít argue that.

- As for uniformity, is that really always a good thing? I always felt the wide emotional and sonically dynamic ranges on Pisces were an amazing thing that Siamese lacked, and was further developed on MCIS. Also, I think the scatterbrained nature of Pisces gives it a more personal and intimate nature to the album, like it was a mixtape of songs Corgan made especially for you. The typed notes (with typos and all) and the obvious random Polaroid only enhance this aspect. Anyone else here feel this way?

- Random jams? Are you serious? What makes a song a "random jam"? Whatever your definition is, I'm sure it could also ******* 90% of all SP songs. Aside from Spaced and the second half of Starla, all the songs have a definite song structure and organization to them. Pasticio Medley is about the only truly "random jam" in their catalog...

- Under-produced? How about Pisces is just fine and Siamese is overproduced? Sometimes itís OK to just sound like a band and not have like 40 guitars playing one note.

- Part of it is Pisces is probably my favorite of their entire catalog, and was the album that clued me into "Oh, wow, this isn't your ordinary band here..." and made me a psycho fan. I got Siamese sometime in 1994 and liked it, but just as much as whatever I was listening to at the time (Blue Album, Superunknown, In Utero, all that crap). But it was in the summer of 1995 on the long bus ride on a Boy Scout camping trip (yeah, laugh it up bitches) where someone lent me their copy of Pisces Iscariot, and I listened to it through headphones while watching the countryside as we drove through a few American states. That album blew me away, and then I read the liner notes: "Oh, and these are all outtakes?!" which directed me back to Siamese and I could hear what I missed from only casual listening before. I bought that and Gish when I got home...

So that's my issue with your original comment. Have a nice day.

SEE I'M NOT CRAZY

samuel redman
10-29-2010, 11:56 AM
i agreed with you.

but i also think Slow Dawn might be the best thing ever written so i dunno

T&T
10-29-2010, 12:03 PM
I've always loved Pisces the most. for all the reasons (minus the boy scout story) that soniclovenoize posted.

it's just totally special and intimate in a way that no other album comes close.
might be my wounded bird syndrome. but billy played it well.

Trotskilicious
10-29-2010, 12:12 PM
pisces has hello kitty kat on it end of story.

RockLobster
10-29-2010, 12:24 PM
gish
P.I
TAFH
Adore
SD
MCIS
lull ep
M2
M1

RockLobster
10-29-2010, 12:25 PM
pisces has hello kitty kat on it end of story.

and plume has on of the best guitar solo's ever.

samuel redman
10-29-2010, 12:58 PM
PI has Whir

aomb1979
10-30-2010, 12:08 AM
and plume has on of the best guitar solo's ever.

That guitar tone is rediculous

stumpycat
10-30-2010, 12:21 AM
- Corgan said in the liner notes that he always felt that the b-sides and unknown songs better represent the band than the album tracks, and I really agree with him. These songs just exist as songs, without the pretence of "Oh shit, this has to be the great album track or hit single!" It's more of the Smashing Pumpkins with their pants down, so to speak--just a collection of songs. But of course, they're all quality songs; no crap songs on Pisces.

Most of the SP songs on regular rotation in my player are their B-sides, live songs, outtakes, and otherwise unreleased material. Pretty much everything but their album material. Mashed Potatoes is a masterpiece to me, LOL.


- As for uniformity, is that really always a good thing? I always felt the wide emotional and sonically dynamic ranges on Pisces were an amazing thing that Siamese lacked, and was further developed on MCIS. Also, I think the scatterbrained nature of Pisces gives it a more personal and intimate nature to the album, like it was a mixtape of songs Corgan made especially for you. The typed notes (with typos and all) and the obvious random Polaroid only enhance this aspect. Anyone else here feel this way?

I agree. It made me feel leet. Like you had the privilege of seeing them perform inside the community rec center in a secret performance only you and your SP loving buddies knew about.

slunken
10-30-2010, 02:33 AM
Most of the SP songs on regular rotation in my player are their B-sides, live songs, outtakes, and otherwise unreleased material. Pretty much everything but their album material.

yea same here. @soniclovenoise - he once said, while listening heavily to prince b-sides, that any band is only as good as their b-sides.

soniclovenoize
10-30-2010, 09:14 AM
I said that?!?!?! http://serve.mysmiley.net/confused/confused0009.gif

AveryLoren
10-30-2010, 11:43 AM
Gish is good but it always felt like it lacked something to me, how good would gish have been with Starla, Slunk and Obscured? Starla should have been gish's silverfuck.

ilikeplanets
10-30-2010, 02:37 PM
Gish needed Drown

sincere
10-30-2010, 02:52 PM
Mellon Collie is the absolute high point of all involveds lives - actually.

slunken
10-30-2010, 04:01 PM
I said that?!?!?! http://serve.mysmiley.net/confused/confused0009.gif

don't be so self-centered.

soniclovenoize
10-31-2010, 12:59 PM
Hey, it's not my fault it's all about me!